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Iconoclasm (Destroying Icons / Symbols / Monuments)

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I cant see the Victorians celebrating a slaver, frankly.

But they were very keen on philanphropists.
 
Spookdaddy said:
My tuppenceworth – while the thread remains civilised.

Statues are not history – they are cultural ephemera which often illuminate the circumstances of their erection much more than the events or individuals they are supposedly intended to memorialise. Their presence is no indication of the health of our understanding of history. Statues are historiography in stone – they are not actual history. In fact, an unhealthy attachment to a lump of bronze on a plinth could be seen as a distraction from the actual blood and sinew of history. History did not disappear in a puff of revisionism when society turned against the institution of slavery, therefore I doubt it will be affected by the removal of the odd lump of associated metal, marble or granite.

That said, I predict an almost inevitable problem with selective blindness.

Some years back there was an issue with the statue of Shaka Zulu at Durban airport. Not because of his aggressive involvement in the wave of inter-tribal warfare that accompanied the period of chaos, displacement and atrocity known as the Mfecane, and which is believed to have resulted in the deaths of between one and two million black Africans, but because his depiction was not considered militaristic enough.

To be honest, I'm not much wedded to an opinion one way or the other; if the good people of Bristol want to get rid of the statue of a slaver and the population of South Africa want to keep the statue of an extremely effective and innovative military leader, I can actually see both their points. I just think - when you actually try and remove emotion from the subject, and apply logic - it could all get very…very complicated.
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Nice post.

Statues are just a thing. An object. They can be a centre for worship or hatred but of the type of statue that is being discussed, is yet another celebration of rich white men.
Well boring! Take em down melt em down, use em to make more statues of animals and fictional characters.

Society doesn't need a statue to remind and educate about history. We have so many other, more interesting ways.
 
Cochise said:
Re Boadicea / Boudicca - there is a statue of her somewhere in London on her chariot - quite spectacular. I think its on the Embankment.
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June 1902 by Thomas Thornycroft, at the junction of the Victoria Embankment and Westminster Bridge, opposite Parliament.

It's a strange statue because if her chariot really had blades protruding from the wheels, then neighbouring horses' legs would have been sliced off.
So probably not accurate.

Boudicca-0265.jpg



Ladyloafer said:
the type of statue that is being discussed, is yet another celebration of rich white men.
Well boring! Take em down melt em down, use em to make more statues of animals and fictional characters.

Society doesn't need a statue to remind and educate about history. We have so many other, more interesting ways.
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Beg to differ.
A fair bit of Western Europe's history was shaped by rich white men, and I find it interesting to learn about them and their deeds, both noble and profane, through statues.
They are a starting point for research and discussion.

Though animal sculptures also have their place in enhancing the streetscape.
 
Victory said:
It's a strange statue because if her chariot really had blades protruding from the wheels, then neighbouring horses legs would have been cut of sliced off.
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They were socially distanced. It should have Romans under the wheels/hooves and being bisected by the blades!
 
AnonyJoolz said:
I'd like to see more statues of people we may have contemporary descriptions of (eg Boudicca) but no contemporary surviving image.

Alfred The Great and Athelstan are currently my Anglo-Saxon pinups, so more of them would be good too!

Edited to add: there are rumours afoot that E. Colston unfortunately tripped, fell down the stairs and fell into the harbour....
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Alfred the great. Winner of the 880ad wessex knobbly knees contest.
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I’m not keen on the idea of pulling down a statue. It is after all, the work of an artist - a sculptor who has spent years learning the art. For me, after trashing art, the next step is burning books and extreme censorship of expression and thought.
I find it depressingly predictable when tense protests destroy rather than create. But creation is hard, painstaking work and destruction can be done in just a few minutes can’t it?
I see there’s now a demand to rename streets to reflect the ethnicity of today’s society. How will this righteous act affect the general public? Well, I imagine some small business people will find their sudden change of address a bit of a problem. Their public face and location will have to be updated on the web. They may have to re-register for the Tax people. Maps will have to change, sat nav data would need to be redone. Driving Licences would have to be changed to the new addresses and Insurance companies would have to be informed of any changes. I was listening to LBC and some caller suggested calling a London street Rosa Parks Avenue. The presenter asked ‘What does that have to do with London? And the caller said ‘It doesn’t matter’, missing the point of street naming altogether. I get the outrage over recent events but a descent into destruction of art is something that should be carefully considered. Burn down the Tate Gallery? The Albert Hall? Downing Street.... is that historically fair game? This has to stop.
 
Analogue Boy said:
I’m not keen on the idea of pulling down a statue. It is after all, the work of an artist - a sculptor who has spent years learning the art. For me, after trashing art, the next step is burning books and extreme censorship of expression and thought.
I find it depressingly predictable when tense protests destroy rather than create. But creation is hard, painstaking work and destruction can be done in just a few minutes can’t it?
I see there’s now a demand to rename streets to reflect the ethnicity of today’s society. How will this righteous act affect the general public? Well, I imagine some small business people will find their sudden change of address a bit of a problem. Their public face and location will have to be updated on the web. They may have to re-register for the Tax people. Maps will have to change, sat nav data would need to be redone. Driving Licences would have to be changed to the new addresses and Insurance companies would have to be informed of any changes. I was listening to LBC and some caller suggested calling a London street Rosa Parks Avenue. The presenter asked ‘What does that have to do with London? And the caller said ‘It doesn’t matter’, missing the point of street naming altogether. I get the outrage over recent events but a descent into destruction of art is something that should be carefully considered. Burn down the Tate Gallery? The Albert Hall? Downing Street.... is that historically fair game? This has to stop.
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Quite so.

And, of course, this destruction is very selective.

Agenda are being played out.
 
Perhaps we should just concentrate on soulless abstract municipal art. Let’s face it, the fantasy Wonderland creations of Lewis Carroll would be ripped down straight away. Even J.K. Rowling’s characters would now be a target by some members of our society. Nothing is safe for a decade never mind forever. The dirt will be dug over and offence will ultimately be manufactured whoever the subject is. If I was to do any grafitti on Churchill’s statue, it would to be to add ‘Had Two Balls’.
 
Any statue of Nelson Mandela. Because, let's face it, he was a terrorist.
 
INT21 said:
Quite so.

And, of course, this destruction is very selective.

Agenda are being played out.
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Well, I don't think there are any statues of Stalin or Mao in the UK, so they can't be pulled down.

I suppose those on the other side could pull down statues of Bishop Wilberforce.

When it comes to statues of Cromwell or Churchill things get a bit more complicated. Both of them had good and bad sides.
 
Sorry Ramon....Politics.
 
There’s the continuous profile of Mussolini in the Imperial War Museum. An important symbolic piece of art. Fuck it. I don’t like him. Let’s trash it.

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I’m concentrating on the art rather than the politics.

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See? You can almost hear the cock crowing and he’s denying it thrice.
 
I reckon that's a photo of maximus otter in his old job.

I tried giving him a piggyback - but he was too heavy. Do us a favour, sarge - get your fingers out my mouth, it's hard enough breathing down here as it is. And can you get me a handkerchief, my eyes are watering something chronic.
 
Analogue Boy said:
I’m not keen on the idea of pulling down a statue. It is after all, the work of an artist - a sculptor who has spent years learning the art. For me, after trashing art, the next step is burning books and extreme censorship of expression and thought.
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I'd guess a lot of historic statues were commissioned jobs rather than Art. Sure someone designed/carved/forged etc and that is skill for sure. But removing now irrelevant statues from public places doesn't have to be a slippery slope to censorship.
Libraries remove irrelevant and out dated books from circulation but it's not censorship to think no one's interested in Dummies guide to Windows 2000.
 
Ladyloafer said:
I'd guess a lot of historic statues were commissioned jobs rather than Art. Sure someone designed/carved/forged etc and that is skill for sure. But removing now irrelevant statues from public places doesn't have to be a slippery slope to censorship.
Libraries remove irrelevant and out dated books from circulation but it's not censorship to think no one's interested in Dummies guide to Windows 2000.
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Aren't libraries there so people can still find outdated information ?

If not then the burning of the library at Alexandria could be justified.

Just old stuff no one wanted.
 
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