Analogue Boy
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ArthurASCII said:
Maybe that should read 99.9% of detected criminals aren't very clever.
Perhaps the clever criminals don't get caught.
Maybe that should read 99.9% of detected criminals aren't very clever.
Perhaps the clever criminals don't get caught.
Analogue Boy
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coldelephant said:
I was merely saying that I was half expecting the Government would stress that the latest problems are even more reason to have a secure triple-locked centralised database and biometeric passports and ID cards would stop all this kind of thing.
I wasn't making a factual assertion.
I'm surprised they still don't have a common central database which all governmental departments can access. Of course while the costs of putting together the database would be high, is it as high as the cost of n governmental departments maintaining n very similar databases? Or is it perhaps a case of the good old civil service maintaining its current (over)staffing levels?
A
Anonymous
Guest
I'm beginning to be of the persuasion that some of these people choose to justify their being employed by engaging the UK in huge, massively overpriced and arguably completely unnecessary projects.
The side effects of this appear to be massive data loss, trying to dig themselves out of holes that just get deeper, whitewashing, and massive amounts of money being lost forever, with little or no visible gain.
Sack them. Don't employ them.
That being asserted, now you have to find 'them' and be absolutely sure it is them.
Roll on next general election...
The side effects of this appear to be massive data loss, trying to dig themselves out of holes that just get deeper, whitewashing, and massive amounts of money being lost forever, with little or no visible gain.
Sack them. Don't employ them.
That being asserted, now you have to find 'them' and be absolutely sure it is them.
Roll on next general election...
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No ID? Never mind, here you are..!
Illegal security workers 'given NI numbers'
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:28am GMT 16/01/2008
Thousands of foreign nationals who took jobs illegally as security guards may have been issued with national insurance numbers, it emerged last night.
The disclosure adds to Government embarrassment over the fiasco, which saw illegal immigrants working in sensitive areas, including guarding the Prime Minister's car.
In November, the Home Office admitted that 6,653 foreign nationals without work permits had been licensed to work by the Security Industry Authority (SIA), a government vetting agency. The SIA confirmed last night that when the immigrants applied for clearance, they had to fill in application forms giving a national insurance number.
The numbers are provided by the Department for Work and Pensions, run by Peter Hain, who is fighting for his political life over more than £100,000 in undeclared donations to his Labour deputy leadership campaign. The DWP admitted last year that it had "lost" millions of national insurance numbers.
Chris Grayling, the Tory work and pensions spokesman, said: "It looks pretty clear that Peter Hain is no more in control of his department than he was of his deputy leadership campaign finance."
http://tinyurl.com/3ykotm
Illegal security workers 'given NI numbers'
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:28am GMT 16/01/2008
Thousands of foreign nationals who took jobs illegally as security guards may have been issued with national insurance numbers, it emerged last night.
The disclosure adds to Government embarrassment over the fiasco, which saw illegal immigrants working in sensitive areas, including guarding the Prime Minister's car.
In November, the Home Office admitted that 6,653 foreign nationals without work permits had been licensed to work by the Security Industry Authority (SIA), a government vetting agency. The SIA confirmed last night that when the immigrants applied for clearance, they had to fill in application forms giving a national insurance number.
The numbers are provided by the Department for Work and Pensions, run by Peter Hain, who is fighting for his political life over more than £100,000 in undeclared donations to his Labour deputy leadership campaign. The DWP admitted last year that it had "lost" millions of national insurance numbers.
Chris Grayling, the Tory work and pensions spokesman, said: "It looks pretty clear that Peter Hain is no more in control of his department than he was of his deputy leadership campaign finance."
http://tinyurl.com/3ykotm
Analogue Boy
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I know someone who works in the security industry and it's been common knowledge for years that this is going on.
However, if these 'foreign nationals' are issued with NI numbers and have the right certification for employment in that industry, it's a bit rich to say they're working 'illegally'.
However, if these 'foreign nationals' are issued with NI numbers and have the right certification for employment in that industry, it's a bit rich to say they're working 'illegally'.
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I have a card entitling me to free bus travel. You put it on the ticket machine, which reads the chip (although not all drivers insist you do this) before your ticket is issued.
Tonight I waved my card over the machine in my usual manner, but it did not register as usual. The driver told me to hold it still - again nothing. He took it out of my wallet and tried it every which way, but still the light came up red.
Meanwhile people behind me were getting impatient, and I began to feel like I was trying to pass off a nine-bob note
Eventually he gave me a ticket anyway, but this little episode was an embarassing foretaste of what it might feel like if ID card technology fails at any time.... :shock:
Presumably you'd run the risk then of being locked up as a potential terrorist, which would spoil your day....
Tonight I waved my card over the machine in my usual manner, but it did not register as usual. The driver told me to hold it still - again nothing. He took it out of my wallet and tried it every which way, but still the light came up red.
Meanwhile people behind me were getting impatient, and I began to feel like I was trying to pass off a nine-bob note
Eventually he gave me a ticket anyway, but this little episode was an embarassing foretaste of what it might feel like if ID card technology fails at any time.... :shock:
Presumably you'd run the risk then of being locked up as a potential terrorist, which would spoil your day....
OneWingedBird
Beloved of Ra
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you got a good point there ryn... every once in a blue moon my bank card decides quite randomly and without explanation not to work, which is a pita enough when you have to ditch your shopping in Morrisons.
but what's going to happen when these inevitable glitches start happening with id cards?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Presumably if you are making a purchase of a car or house then you will have to drop it and leave until you have a new ID card (which will be complicated to obtain).
If you are trying to get into a place or trying to verify your identity for some other important reason - then perhaps you will be detained until you go through all the biometric tests to verify your identity, and have to get another ID card afterwards which will be difficult to obtain.
The data will be held in the form of numbers which may become corrupt over time as electrical signals weaken or the structural integrity of their data storage home changes slightly - and you will need a new ID card which will be difficult to obtain.
On top of all this - the government will lose data and data will get shared with people and you may be framed for crimes or have bank accounts opened in your name etc and you will not be able to prove that it was not you very easily.
The numbers that the data is represented by will be easy to obtain for theives however, the government will give it away, or their US data handlers will do it for them.
The data can be used to make fingerprints etc as we have read, and can be used to frame you or open bank accounts or credit cards in your name.
I'm going to pass my degree and leave the country as soon as possible afterwards.
That is not the only reason why of course, the other reason is that houses will be heading up for half a million pounds each and I couldn't afford a deposit even if I was saving up all money and not eating at all or paying for transport etc; and no first time buyers in this country will mean that we will all eventually revert back to Victorian times of renting instead of owning property.
Once again, the vast majority of us will have nothing to look forward to in life.
I'm off.
If you are trying to get into a place or trying to verify your identity for some other important reason - then perhaps you will be detained until you go through all the biometric tests to verify your identity, and have to get another ID card afterwards which will be difficult to obtain.
The data will be held in the form of numbers which may become corrupt over time as electrical signals weaken or the structural integrity of their data storage home changes slightly - and you will need a new ID card which will be difficult to obtain.
On top of all this - the government will lose data and data will get shared with people and you may be framed for crimes or have bank accounts opened in your name etc and you will not be able to prove that it was not you very easily.
The numbers that the data is represented by will be easy to obtain for theives however, the government will give it away, or their US data handlers will do it for them.
The data can be used to make fingerprints etc as we have read, and can be used to frame you or open bank accounts or credit cards in your name.
I'm going to pass my degree and leave the country as soon as possible afterwards.
That is not the only reason why of course, the other reason is that houses will be heading up for half a million pounds each and I couldn't afford a deposit even if I was saving up all money and not eating at all or paying for transport etc; and no first time buyers in this country will mean that we will all eventually revert back to Victorian times of renting instead of owning property.
Once again, the vast majority of us will have nothing to look forward to in life.
I'm off.
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At least security in the Forces is good - oops, oh no, it isn't...!
Police probe theft of MoD laptop
West Midlands police are investigating the theft of a laptop from a Royal Navy officer which held the personal details of 600,000 people.
Police said the laptop was taken from a vehicle parked overnight in the Edgbaston area of Birmingham.
The laptop contains data including passport numbers, National Insurance numbers and bank details. [Nothing important, then..]
They relate to people who had expressed an interest in, or joined, the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and the RAF.
Last November, it emerged that 25m child benefit records had been lost after HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) sent two unregistered and unencrypted discs to the National Audit Office.
The MoD said it was treating this latest theft with the "utmost seriousness".
The police said they received a report that the laptop had been stolen from a car parked in Edgbaston on 10 January.
"The information held is not the same for every individual," the MoD said.
"In some cases, for casual enquiries, the record is no more than a name.
"But for those who progressed as far as submitting an application to join the Forces, extensive personal data may be held, including passport details, National Insurance numbers, drivers' licence details, family details, doctors' addresses and National Health Service numbers."
The MoD said it was writing to 3,500 people whose bank details were on the laptop's database.
It said it was working with the Association for Payment Clearing Services to inform the relevant banks and ensure that accounts affected are "flagged for scrutiny against unauthorised access".
Simon Davies, from pressure group Privacy International, told BBC News 24 he was "flabbergasted".
"I cannot believe that our flagship security agency cannot get this right," Mr Davies said.
"The idea that someone could have the computer with the information unencrypted - it is on a par with the HMRC loss."
'Quite concerning'
Mr Davies said the theft was "reminiscent of so many data breaches".
"There are so many procedures and no-one knows which procedure is in place," he said.
Information Commissioner Richard Thomas said the incident was "a stark illustration of the potency of personal information in a database world".
"We will require satisfactory answers from the MoD about their data protection practices and a firm assurance that steps have been taken to improve these practices before deciding on the appropriate action to take," he said.
Shadow defence secretary Liam Fox told BBC News 24 that the theft was "clearly quite concerning".
"I think that the police will be wanting to check in the first instance that there is no real risk of security lapses," he said.
"It's just been too easy for data to go missing recently and we need to look at how to protect the details of the public."
He said he had spoken to Defence Secretary Des Browne and agreed that the matter would be discussed in the House of Commons next week.
Nick Harvey, Lib Dem defence spokesman, said the incident was further proof of the dangers of a national ID card system.
"If anybody is entertaining lingering support for the idea... surely this would worry anybody into realising that you cannot trust any system you invent to store this much data in one place," Mr Harvey said.
Douglas Young, of the British Armed Forces Federation, said: "It really is very, very worrying and I'm deeply concerned to hear this.
"There must be a top level investigation."
More information and advice can be obtained by emailing [email protected] from 1000GMT on Saturday 19 January.
Anyone with information should contact West Midlands Police on 0845 113 5000.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7197045.stm
Police probe theft of MoD laptop
West Midlands police are investigating the theft of a laptop from a Royal Navy officer which held the personal details of 600,000 people.
Police said the laptop was taken from a vehicle parked overnight in the Edgbaston area of Birmingham.
The laptop contains data including passport numbers, National Insurance numbers and bank details. [Nothing important, then..]
They relate to people who had expressed an interest in, or joined, the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and the RAF.
Last November, it emerged that 25m child benefit records had been lost after HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) sent two unregistered and unencrypted discs to the National Audit Office.
The MoD said it was treating this latest theft with the "utmost seriousness".
The police said they received a report that the laptop had been stolen from a car parked in Edgbaston on 10 January.
"The information held is not the same for every individual," the MoD said.
"In some cases, for casual enquiries, the record is no more than a name.
"But for those who progressed as far as submitting an application to join the Forces, extensive personal data may be held, including passport details, National Insurance numbers, drivers' licence details, family details, doctors' addresses and National Health Service numbers."
The MoD said it was writing to 3,500 people whose bank details were on the laptop's database.
It said it was working with the Association for Payment Clearing Services to inform the relevant banks and ensure that accounts affected are "flagged for scrutiny against unauthorised access".
Simon Davies, from pressure group Privacy International, told BBC News 24 he was "flabbergasted".
"I cannot believe that our flagship security agency cannot get this right," Mr Davies said.
"The idea that someone could have the computer with the information unencrypted - it is on a par with the HMRC loss."
'Quite concerning'
Mr Davies said the theft was "reminiscent of so many data breaches".
"There are so many procedures and no-one knows which procedure is in place," he said.
Information Commissioner Richard Thomas said the incident was "a stark illustration of the potency of personal information in a database world".
"We will require satisfactory answers from the MoD about their data protection practices and a firm assurance that steps have been taken to improve these practices before deciding on the appropriate action to take," he said.
Shadow defence secretary Liam Fox told BBC News 24 that the theft was "clearly quite concerning".
"I think that the police will be wanting to check in the first instance that there is no real risk of security lapses," he said.
"It's just been too easy for data to go missing recently and we need to look at how to protect the details of the public."
He said he had spoken to Defence Secretary Des Browne and agreed that the matter would be discussed in the House of Commons next week.
Nick Harvey, Lib Dem defence spokesman, said the incident was further proof of the dangers of a national ID card system.
"If anybody is entertaining lingering support for the idea... surely this would worry anybody into realising that you cannot trust any system you invent to store this much data in one place," Mr Harvey said.
Douglas Young, of the British Armed Forces Federation, said: "It really is very, very worrying and I'm deeply concerned to hear this.
"There must be a top level investigation."
More information and advice can be obtained by emailing [email protected] from 1000GMT on Saturday 19 January.
Anyone with information should contact West Midlands Police on 0845 113 5000.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7197045.stm
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Davis: 'ID cards in intensive care'
By Nigel Morris, Home Affairs Correspondent
Published: 23 January 2008
The identity card scheme was said to be in "intensive care" as leaked Whitehall documents showed it faced a new delay of two years.
The cards were set to be issued to Britons from 2010, when they apply to renew their passports, but private Home Office documents show the introduction is set to be put off until 2012.
The likely postponement follows a series of fiascos over the security of personal data held by the Government. Gordon Brown is also widely believed not to share the enthusiasm of his predecessor for the scheme.
David Davis, the shadow Home Secretary, who obtained the papers, said: "It is in the intensive care ward." He claimed the widespread introduction of the cards was being delayed to stop it becoming an issue at the next election, expected in 2009 or 2010.
Under the new Home Office timetable, ID cards will still be issued this year to foreign nationals and next year to UK nationals employed in "positions of trust", thought to include youth workers and teachers. But the mass roll-out will not take place for another three years.
A Home Office spokesman said the date for issuing cards with passports was "under consideration".
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... 362276.ece
We're grinding the b*ggers down!
By Nigel Morris, Home Affairs Correspondent
Published: 23 January 2008
The identity card scheme was said to be in "intensive care" as leaked Whitehall documents showed it faced a new delay of two years.
The cards were set to be issued to Britons from 2010, when they apply to renew their passports, but private Home Office documents show the introduction is set to be put off until 2012.
The likely postponement follows a series of fiascos over the security of personal data held by the Government. Gordon Brown is also widely believed not to share the enthusiasm of his predecessor for the scheme.
David Davis, the shadow Home Secretary, who obtained the papers, said: "It is in the intensive care ward." He claimed the widespread introduction of the cards was being delayed to stop it becoming an issue at the next election, expected in 2009 or 2010.
Under the new Home Office timetable, ID cards will still be issued this year to foreign nationals and next year to UK nationals employed in "positions of trust", thought to include youth workers and teachers. But the mass roll-out will not take place for another three years.
A Home Office spokesman said the date for issuing cards with passports was "under consideration".
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... 362276.ece
We're grinding the b*ggers down!
A
Anonymous
Guest
rynner said:We're grinding the b*ggers down!
Somebody is.
After all the millions of data records stolen, lost, misplaced and/or given away - although it was only the military data losses which prompted this IMO - somebody up thar has decided enough is enough and that this will stop.
Somebody has decided, from up high, that what we really do not want, you see, is to have millions of people's data on databases shared with the world and shared insecurely.
There's quite enough of that going on at the moment thank you very much.
Additionally, the ID card scheme might be a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights, the Human Rights Act 1998 and might even be racist - if only applied to foreigners.
Add to that the prospect of having every British citizen (including military folk and high level folk) having their biometric data on computers and one sees the prospect of breaches of the Official Secrets Act and also some very awkward inconveniences in the near future...
*Sigh*
Some people really do not think things through.
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So if I am a youth worker or teacher, I have no choice. I am a guinea pig whether or not I like it. Whoopee.
I'll report back next year and tell you what it's like being a mind controlled slave. My worry about an ID card is that it could be stolen. Can anyone think of a way to prevent this? Somekind of implant like my little cat has, perhaps?
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If you're into body piercing, you could attach it to your face (or elsewhere) with a ring or a stud!theredmeanie said:
At least if it was stolen, you would be fully aware of it at the time!
Alternatively, get a tattoo made recording all the details....
JamesWhitehead
Piffle Prospector
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Every year between now and full implementation will almost certainly bring the whole notion into further disrepute. I wish I fully believed that this was a clever way to ditch it.
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It's only as likely to get stolen as your credit card, driving license etc.theredmeanie said:
I've carried an ID card of one sort or another since the age of 16 and I've never had one stolen (I've lost a couple over the years though, but it's a simple matter to have them stopped/re-issued).
I really don't understand the indignation (sometimes verging on paranoia) that the debate on ID cards elicits.
I think its because the stated reasons for the introduction of ID cards are complete bollocks.
Most security folks (IT security specialists) believe that the system envisaged will not work too well nor will they (the cards) do anything to prevent terrorism.
Most security folks (IT security specialists) believe that the system envisaged will not work too well nor will they (the cards) do anything to prevent terrorism.
taras
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Simply put, because there is still no good reason to have everyone's details on one central database. We have grown used to the kind of decentralised panopticism (ooh get me) that we live in, so shifting to a centralised system makes it seem like we would be losing notional civil libierties that we probably haven't even got as it is.ArthurASCII said:
Analogue Boy
Bar 6
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ArthurASCII said:
What we're talking about are not old fashioned ID cards but potentially a means to monitor entitlement to the services our taxes already pay for.
Also the function creep of whether we'll need to swipe every time we get on and off a bus or a train or whether a bus or train can run if the scanner is broke and they don't know who's on board.
Oh..that and the fact that all our data will be accessed by people in other countries and 'least' worryingly, the private sector.
there a pdf on wikileaks here...
http://wikileaks.cx/leak/nis-options-an ... utcome.pdf
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Not forgetting that they want to charge us a hefty sum for the privilege.
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I am, as I've said on other threads, a PCSO, so I use the Police Intelligence databases on a daily basis. The information they contain is priceless. I know in advance if the individual I'm dealing with is likely to be violent, has any health or mental problems and their contact history with the Police. This enables me to understand them better and deal with them in a more informed and sensitive manner - a great example of IT at work.lupinwick said:
The digitisation of Patients medical records is largely complete throughout the UK and is proving to be a life saver in some cases (Doctor's handwriting being what it is) - another example of an IT project success.
Databases are a fact of life - they're everywhere. Payrolls, employee details, bank and financial info, DVLA, Customs and Excise. The list is endless.
As a former Information Systems consultant to the MoD, I have extensive knowledge of database production and maintenance, and I do not agree that "Most security folks (IT security specialists) believe that the system envisaged will not work too well". Those that I know from my time in the business do not see things that way.
"nor will they (the cards) do anything to prevent terrorism" - in your opinion surely. Again, I disagree with you on that point.
Analogue Boy
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ArthurASCII.
I don't doubt that the database as it stands is a very useful tool but the fact that you say the information held on it will be used as the main means of assessing an individual before you assess the situation doesn't really do much to allay the fears that a wider and more comprehensive database (with inevitable innaccuracies) reduces us to a bunch of numbers and suspects.
It is not just the concept of ID Cards but the faith in the technology behind them I find quite disturbing.
I don't doubt that the database as it stands is a very useful tool but the fact that you say the information held on it will be used as the main means of assessing an individual before you assess the situation doesn't really do much to allay the fears that a wider and more comprehensive database (with inevitable innaccuracies) reduces us to a bunch of numbers and suspects.
It is not just the concept of ID Cards but the faith in the technology behind them I find quite disturbing.
OneWingedBird
Beloved of Ra
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the last time i had to deal with the nhs, to try and find out the circumstances of my stepfather's death, they couldn't tell me anything because their new database was incompatable with the old one and couldn't open any records more than 4 years old. at least that's what i was told.
ArthurASCII said:
Most IT security specialists I come across are horrified at the scale of the problems inherent with the ID card schemes. These are folks with a lot of experience of governmental IT, who do not see how the system can be made secure. The DVLA have been in trouble for selling on details and for the accuracy being generally poor ( < 90%).
Its not the IT itself that the issue, we are ALL already on dozens of databases. Its the amount of additional infrastructure needed to make this work, and at every point you introduce more vulnerabilities, far more than in any other IT system.
Largely their opinion not mine. A number of respected security analysts have suggested that ID cards would do nothing to prevent another atrocity such as 9/11 or the tube bombings. Check out folks such as Bruce Schneier.
Analogue Boy
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More thoughts on security of the future database here...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 499317.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 499317.ece
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That wasn't quite what I said. I was just trying to illustrate one example of the way that existing information can be used to inform Police Officers, enabling them to do their job more safely and sensitively. As for inaccuracies, they are of course inevitable; after all, humans will be responsible for input and update of any information held, and we are a frail and mistake-prone bunch. IMO the benefits that will accrue far outweigh the odd error. Perfection is an unrealistic pipe dream. We can only strive to keep errors to a minimum through good working practice and checks and guidelines; it's the same with ANY project.jimv1 said:
I understand that it's impossible to allay the many and varied fears of those who are opposed to information held on database. You lack trust. There's not much that can be done to convince someone who knows in their heart that something's "wrong". Scare stories of "sleepers", tales of incompetence and conspiracy theories abound.jimv1 said:
We are angry about "scroungers", illegal immigrants, the black economy et al - and rightly so, but when a government attempts to tackle these concerns we conjure up a gazillion reasons why it'll never work and raise the bogeyman of "Big Brother".
Better to try and fail than to sit wringing our hands in indignant impotence. Don't let the bad guys steal your money and your freedom by allowing them to get away with murder while you conjure up spooks.
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A great plot for a novel. No mention of the HUGE worldwide database held by the Murdoch empire though. SKY subscribers beware! Who knows who he's selling your personal details to.jimv1 said:
It's a wonder we haven't all been robbed of our cash and identities by criminals hacking into his databases. Or perhaps the security is too tight?
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To directly quote someone who has to deal with said database on a daily basis - "It's shit." And to directly quote someone else who works in IT in the NHS, "It's not going to get any better any time soon."BlackRiverFalls said:
It's already several years late, three times over budget and counting, and still doesn't actually work in between 50 and 80% of cases, due to incompatible software, financial mismanagement and (again) far too many management steering committees deciding on frequent 180 degree policy turns. It's billions pf pounds of our money being poured into an open drain covered with a sheet of soggy cardboard. They could have, literally, upgraded every single failing hospital in the country with the money they've spent on the database so far.
Yes, it has saved lives. But the health of how many others have been jeopardised while money is diverted towards what most medical staff regard as a desirable, but not essential, bit of kit (essentials being hospitals, clinics, medicines, equipment and staff)?