Implications Of Cryptid Discovery

When a word is used to mean a very broad spread of fundamentally different things, it no longer has a definition.

In the normal course of events, outside of a legal, technical or academic context, definitions develop or evolve, and important distinctions are lost (e.g. anticipate now used to mean expect.) I think "cryptid" has degraded to the stage of being almost a useless word if it is not given some additional context.

Without further qualification, cryptid now means little more than "any creature that some people claim to believe may exist, but which is not recognised by science."

In broad terms, I would say there are two fundamental categories of cryptid.

1) Creatures we know once existed, but are/were thought to be extinct.
This would include the coelacanth, thylacine, dodo, pterosaurs, plesiosaurs etc.
Although the term cryptid hadn't been invented back in the 1930s when a living coelacanth turned up, I believe it met the criteria to be regarded as such. Its status has obviously now changed to that of a "Lazarus Taxon". Fingers crossed that the same may happen with the thylacine (but I'm not holding my breath for a living pterosaur).

2) Creatures with no supporting hard evidence for their existence, such as dragons, yetis/Bigfoot, chupacabras, werewolves, Mothman, Mongolian death worm etc.
Whilst I would love to be proved wrong, I believe the odds of any of these mythical creatures being proven to be real flesh and blood are as close to zero as makes no difference.

What also muddies the waters a bit are attempts through selective breeding and/or genetic manipulation to recreate extinct species. The Aurochs has already been pretty well resurrected and there is a fair chance that something closely resembling the mammoth may reappear within a few years. I wouldn't count these as cryptids though.
 
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The idea of being ethnoknown is extremely tricky to establish. It's a very slippery idea to ask what did the indigenous people know and when did they know it...
Well, thank you, I've learned something today. I always assumed from context that "ethnic" and associated words like ethnicity related only to race. However, a bit of Googling today shows that the root of the word referred to a group of people from an area. It carried no racial connotations. For example, under this earlier meaning, you could have ethnic cockneys, being people of all races, colours and creeds coming from a specific area of London.

That insight took away some of my initial discomfort at a word that would have drawn the line between scientists and local populations on a basis that would have been problematic. (If ethno only referred to race.)

That leads me to the second part of the word: known. This is problematic for me epistemologically rather than ethically. What do we mean by known?

Without rehashing my earlier examples with the hypothetical ichthyosaur, I think there would be room for words such as ethnoknown, ethnoreputed, ethnobelieved, ethnonarrated, ethnosuspected and so on. (Only half joking here: the important distinctions need to be recognised, but the words would be silly.)

If the existence of a species is known with certainty by one part of humanity, it is not a cryptid.

To define it as cryptid would be to make a value judgement about the knowledge of one part of humanity compared to another. Species A is only ethnically known, but Species B is properly known: western scientists recognise it.

I am usually the last one to resort to dictionaries and etymology in a debate. The concepts are usually more important than the labels. However, when trying to agree a definition in a technical context, sometimes the etymology is helpful.

Cryptid comes from Greek kryptos, often simply translated as secret or hidden. That's why we put bodies in crypts, and why crossword clues are sometimes cryptic.

However, there is very seldom a 1:1 relationship between words in different languages. kryptos also meant not evident, not obvious.

Using cryptid to refer to all species that have not yet been identified would be to make it a synonym for unknown, or undiscovered.

I think any working definition of cryptid has to include the idea that a species is reputed or believed to exist by some section of the population, but its existence is doubted or even denied by science.

I think we then need to make a fundamental distinction between putative species that, if they existed, would recognisably comply with the known laws and norms of biology (flesh and blood mammals, reptiles, birds, fish, etc.) and creatures that could only exist in the context of an as yet unknown paradigm: animals that can shape shift, teleport, travel between dimensions, fly in defiance of the known laws of physics and aerodynamics, and so on.

Back to the original question at the top of the thread: discovery of an example of the first (flesh and blood) category would cause a minor flurry of news, and a predictable debate about ethics and conservation; discovery of the second sort (operating outside the bounds of physics as we presently understand it) would perhaps cause some degree of panic, hysteria, and religious debate, and a rush by governments to weaponise the new knowledge of physics. If an ABC can travel between dimensions and appear from nowhere, then perhaps our missiles can be made to do the same...
 
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Well, there you go! I think that's a perfectly serviceable definition that provides a category clearly distinct from "mythical," "extinct," and "known to exist."
It's not good. It would also include ghosts, demons, angels, elementals, witches, sentient machines, aliens, etc. But that is where "cryptid" is headed.
 
There's too many entries in this new and interesting thread for me to go back and "like" every post, but consider all yourselves liked.

I think part of the problem with defining cryptids and cryptozoology relates to an argument I once heard that said there is no such thing as "serious" or "scientific" cryptozoology: what serious, science-minded cryptozoologists do is just zoology. Discovering "new" species - even if known to the locals - or redefining what constitutes a given species is what zoologists do. Those calling themselves cryptozoologists are just more attracted to North American apes and large aquatic/marine animals than they are to beetles that have seven spots instead of five. Or, to put it another way, they devote their energy to the less likely but more exciting potential discoveries of alleged species. There's nothing wrong with this on the surface. It's like the difference between betting on Black or betting on 17 in roulette. The payout (financial, emotional, or "impact") is inversely proportional to the chance of winning.

Unfortunately, this attitude puts these serious investigators closer to those who want chupacabras, dragons, or Mothman to be proved real. This is a continuum, not a distinct difference. Karl Shuker, for example, is not in the same class as the folks who claim Bigfoot is an alien species that uses interdimensional portals to travel. But there are lots of people whose attitudes and beliefs lie somewhere in-between. And this lack of clear separation is what makes mainstream science give more credence and support to the beetle people than the sasquatch people.

Getting back to the original question: what type of cryptid discovery would create the biggest impact on society? It all depends on what the news media want to have impact. The general lack of scientific knowledge in the news business makes this a crap shoot. I've seen headlines that lasted for weeks over someone seeing a slime mold, turtle carcass, or pile of decaying whale blubber. But something like the potential discovery of magnetic monopoles - arguably more important to modern man - is usually two sentences read by a "reporter" who doesn't even know what they're saying. I would say the only discovery that would have lasing impact would be a species with human level intelligence, the ability to communicate with us, and some sort of developed society. I'm not holding my breath.
 
If we wish to close the discussion about the definition of cryptid, I would suggest considering that the word is over 40 years old now and has never been resolved. So, it's unlikely that an agreement will ever be reached. Again, no gatekeepers exist, and the term is not consequential in the zoological sense. Cryptid and "cryptids" belong to the public domain - unclassified, amorphous, inconstant, capricious.
 
True cryptozoology is concerned with the following...
1. Unknown species, for example the Mongolian deathworm, the orang-pendek, the yeti, sea serpents and so on.
2. Species thought to be extinct but that may survive to this day such as the Tasmanian wolf, the pink headed duck, the Caspian tiger, the Japanese wolf, Homo floresiensis and others.
3. Known species that have exceeded the official size limit such as giant crocodiles, giant anacondas and such.
Some put out of place animals like ABCs as cryptozoological but i personally think of them simply as simply that, out of place and not truly cryptozoology.
Things that are not in the remit of pure cyptozoology are entities like Owlman, Mothman, fairies , talking mongooses, ghosts and folkloric stuff as these are not zoological, though cryptozoologists may find them interesting in the wider Fortean canon, as do I.
Utterly fictiona creatures like The Rake and Slenderman have zero relevance despite creeping on to lists of cryptids in recent years.
Some things are harder to pin down. Dragons for example probably have multiple sources originating in the first and second categories as well as in fossil dinosaur bones.
Unicorns may have their beginnings in the prehistoric caprinid Procamptoceras brivatense.
 
It is also worth reminding ourselves that many new species of animals and plants are discovered every year:

"A huge diversity of animals and plants have been named, from moss animals and dinosaurs, to stick insects and minerals, not to mention an impressive 85 new species of wasps."

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...entists-describe-351-new-species-in-2022.html
New species will continue to be found, many in museum drawers, in the deep sea, or through DNA analysis. In no way does that correlate to cryptids of the type we are discussing being more likely to exist. Those who discover these species certainly don't identify as cryptozoologists.
 
"A huge diversity of animals and plants have been named, from moss animals and dinosaurs,
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I'm naming this one Mossysaurus.
 
True cryptozoology is concerned with the following...
1. Unknown species, for example the Mongolian deathworm, the orang-pendek, the yeti, sea serpents and so on.
2. Species thought to be extinct but that may survive to this day such as the Tasmanian wolf, the pink headed duck, the Caspian tiger, the Japanese wolf, Homo floresiensis and others.
3. Known species that have exceeded the official size limit such as giant crocodiles, giant anacondas and such.
That definition pins it down for me.
 
Discovery of a small but viable population of panthers on Dartmoor would be a matter of general interest. It would no doubt provoke an argument about capture, extermination, or conservation.
Personally, it'd scare the bejesus out of me!
Since I live far from there it wouldn't bother me. On the other hand, if they were in the local park (which already hosts a thriving population of out-of-place Italian wall lizards) I might panic a bit: I have to vote across the street on Tuesday!
 
Dartmoor's just down the road, and there is woodland between there and here. Panthers are known to roam. I like cats but not ones that big in my garden...
 
In the late 1990's I was at the Dartmoor Wildlife Park near Cornwood. In those times it was run in an "eccentric" fashion. They had all the big cats - Siberian Tigers, Lions, Leopards, Jaguars and Pumas. It was a very quite day and we spent a lot of time chatting to the keepers. They said there was definitely a male Puma on the moor because it would down at night attracted by the female Pumas in the zoo. They were not lying and knew their stuff.
 
In the late 1990's I was at the Dartmoor Wildlife Park near Cornwood. In those times it was run in an "eccentric" fashion. They had all the big cats - Siberian Tigers, Lions, Leopards, Jaguars and Pumas. It was a very quite day and we spent a lot of time chatting to the keepers. They said there was definitely a male Puma on the moor because it would down at night attracted by the female Pumas in the zoo. They were not lying and knew their stuff.
I talked to the one time owner Ellis Daw about 30 yeas ago. Both he and his keepers told me about wild pumas coming down off the moors and into the zoo, attracted by his captive ones.
 
I talked to the one time owner Ellis Daw about 30 yeas ago. Both he and his keepers told me about wild pumas coming down off the moors and into the zoo, attracted by his captive ones.
Didn't they have CCTV back then? Does it still happen today?
 
Brilliant you heard the same thing lordmongrove. Definitely no CCTV as that zoo was in a wonderful timewarp even then. I once walked into an empty canteen and saw a cardboard box in the middle. There were 4 Siberian Tiger Cubs curled up inside asleep.

The actual tiger enclosure was a type of chicken wire so you could get just as close as you wanted! By far our favourite zoo. Would be closed by a trillion regulations now.
 
Ethnoknown is used by Chad Arment in Cryptozoology: Science and Speculation (2004), a fairly comprehensive collection of the scholarly ideas of the field even if it is deeply grumpy and insulting to those who don't toe the line established by Heuvelmans' et al. Ethnoknown is not a bad idea, it's just a privileged view and difficult to put into practice. It has been used in several other places to describe cryptids - it just means is known to the locals.

I'm not sure I said what you said I said. But clearly this all gets very confusing because cryptozoology was never well-defined and never had an established methodology. It failed as a zoological endeavor. That is why we see the plethora of non-zoological cryptids and the diluted-to-the-point-of-uselessness state of the word "cryptid".

Using local observations is an established means of seeking out new species. That's not new or special. So what makes cryptozoology different? I haven't been able to discern that. There is a field of ethno-zoology but I think that is more about humans and animals interact - I could be wrong about that.

The coelacanth had no substantive legend attached to it. No one was actively seeking it based on interesting tales and folklore. Was it known from testimonial evidence? Ehhh.... "known" is a wiggly word - context matters - it was a thing known to locals, just like many plants and animals. They sure didn't care if it had an official binomial name. Sure, it was a surprise when found, but so are many new species. So, I guess it qualifies as a cryptid if you use the term "hidden" meaning that it was hidden from scientists because they weren't fishing in the Indian Ocean. If that's the definition of a cryptid, it's not very useful and it's not different from regular zoology.

But you hit on an important point - the coelacanth is often used as a symbol to suggest that science is flawed - that the declaration that it was extinct was wrong. Cryptozoologists have a strong tendency to bad-talk science. Again, not a useful trait for a serious and scholarly field.
Well, I've just discovered that Arment didn't invent that term "ethnoknown". I figured he didn't but was the first to use it. It turns out Richard Greenwell proposed this term in Cryptozoology, 4, 1985, 1-14, A CLASSIFICATORY SYSTEM FOR CRYPTOZOOLOGY

Various definitions of cryptozoology are reviewed, and a new classificatory system for the field is proposed. The classificatory system has seven categories. Only Categories II through VI are fully cryptozoological; Categories I and VII do not meet all the qualifying requirements, making them only semi-cryptozoological. The terms "unexpected" and "ethnoknown" are defined, and it is noted that most of the categories in the proposed classification, but not most of the individual claims, concern taxa already scientifically described.
 
The first time I ever saw a pileated woodpecker in the wild I thought maybe,just maybe :omg:
That's the most common misidentification of IBW; they are so similar. Pileated woodpeckers are very common, though.
 
There are precedents. When the Platypus, Gorilla, Komodo Dragon, Okapi, Giant Squid or Coelacanth were proven to be extant creatures, rather than just bizarre rumours, there obviously was quite a flurry of scientific and public interest.
The 21st century is obviously a very different place though, with comparatively little of the Earth (excepting the deep oceans) left unexplored and access to instant and powerful media that would have been in the realms of science fiction only a few generations ago.
From our phones and laptops we can all peruse live trail cams in Papua New Guinea and Google Earth down to 15cm resolution.
That is why I very much doubt that any new sizeable, land-dwelling cryptid will be discovered.
Sure, there are likely to be some hitherto unknown invertebrates or perhaps a frog lurking somewhere but, as for extant pterosaurs, Bigfoots/Yetis, Mokele M'Bembes, Chupacabras, Mothmen etc. Nah. That seems pretty well impossible.
Would love to be proven wrong though!
 
From our phones and laptops we can all peruse live trail cams in Papua New Guinea and Google Earth down to 15cm resolution.
That is why I very much doubt that any new sizeable, land-dwelling cryptid will be discovered.
Trail cams only pick up things that are in their line of sight. Trail cams are put there to observe things that are expected to be seen. A cryptid might not use those trails. It might actively avoid those trails. There are speed cameras on the main roads where I live, but not on the back roads, side roads and lanes. If I want to ride my motorcycle spiritedly, I avoid the main roads where the cameras are.

Google Earth is not live, but is a montage of still photos from above, taken in daylight. Google Earth won't tell me what is under the tree in my back garden, never mind what is under the dense canopy of a jungle in Africa or South America. It also won't tell me what was in a forest clearing at night time, or even half an hour before or after the photo was taken.

Even if Google Earth happened to capture a still image of a Bigfoot, in daylight, in the open, how easy would it be to recognise from vertically above?

Google Maps/Street View is also a montage of still images, taken in daylight from the road. It doesn't show what was in the same place at night, or what was there on the next day or the previous day. Also, it doesn't even show what is behind my garden hedge, never mind what is in the woods half a mile from the road.

I think if we want to prove that a particular cryptid does exist, we need clear unedited photos or video with the EXIF data available, or we need good DNA samples, or an actual specimen.

Conversely, if we wish to prove that a particular cryptid does not exist, we need to demonstrate that it is impossible for it to exist.

The best approach to this is probably the boring one involving mathematical analysis of the food chain etc.

Also, as in the case of the Loch Ness Phenomenon, where there is a clearly defined habitat range, we can prove something cannot exist by statistical analysis of multiple dip samples showing an absence of unknown DNA. I can't do the arithmetic, but I understand the principles pretty well. If enough random samples produce no DNA at all, the probability of the DNA being "there to be found" but "missed on all the dip samples" approaches zero.
 
Trail cams only pick up things that are in their line of sight. Trail cams are put there to observe things that are expected to be seen. A cryptid might not use those trails. It might actively avoid those trails. There are speed cameras on the main roads where I live, but not on the back roads, side roads and lanes. If I want to ride my motorcycle spiritedly, I avoid the main roads where the cameras are.

Google Earth is not live, but is a montage of still photos from above, taken in daylight. Google Earth won't tell me what is under the tree in my back garden, never mind what is under the dense canopy of a jungle in Africa or South America. It also won't tell me what was in a forest clearing at night time, or even half an hour before or after the photo was taken.

Unfortunately poaching generally will. Where there's money to be made, there'll be dead animals. So, in addition to all the other special circumstances required for their continuing to elude discovery, I think we have to add how these species could exist in sustainable numbers, yet never be traded.
 
Unfortunately poaching generally will. Where there's money to be made, there'll be dead animals. So, in addition to all the other special circumstances required for their continuing to elude discovery, I think we have to add how these species could exist in sustainable numbers, yet never be traded.
Wouldn't it have to be fairly specialised poaching? Another subject I don't know enough about but I get the impression that most poaching involves valuable body parts either as a material like ivory or for medicinal purposes like rhino horns or pangolin bits with an established illegal market.

I'm sure there are those who would pay for a Mngwa skin rug or a fur coat made of Yeti hair but they can't show it off they would have to be the sort with a Renoir in their own private gallery that only they and a few cronies would be able to look at.

Wouldn't any poacher who shot a Nandi Bear make more out of making the body public than trying to sell it? I'm sure some sort of "I was out hunting rabbits and it came right at me". probably wouldn't be believed but would make a convenient get out.
 
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