Incest Is Best?

[PeniG]

"Especially since the Deaveses went so public with their relationship - we feel sorry for their children and the stigma they'll suffer."

But of course the speaker has no responsibility whatsoever for the existence of the stigma on the children... "Everything'd be all right if they'd just lie about who they are!"

I think it's irresponsible for such close kin to have children and that society has a valid interest in preventing such unions, especially if the family members have lived as family members and exploitation enters the picture. The incest taboo - unlike, say, the homosexual taboo or ones against specific acts between consenting adults - has its uses; but it also has its abuses. The kid exists now. What's she supposed to do - die to make everybody else comfortable? What are her parents supposed to do - put their kid through a divorce they don't want, teach her to be ashamed at her own existence, lie to her, teach her hypocrisy? Or face up to the truth, admit the wrong in it, and make the best outcome they can?

The horse has left the stable. Stop mucking around with the barn door and throwing manure at the person who left it open, and either work on a solution to the problem presented or shut up.

Naw, if people acted that mature, we'd all be happier, and that would never do.

 

[rynner2]

The horse has left the stable. Stop mucking around with the barn door and throwing manure at the person who left it open, and either work on a solution to the problem presented or shut up.

Naw, if people acted that mature, we'd all be happier, and that would never do.

Well said, Peni.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

I trust that the following question will not be interpreted as being in the least in favor of incest, but I still need a straight answer as to how biologically dangerous line-breeding actually is.

I've had in my family and among my friends several respected and experienced breeders of championship hunting dogs. All of them regularly breed male dogs back to their mother.

I've questioned all of them regarding the safety of this practice and the reply has invariably been some version of:

"You'd have to do it for many more generations than I ever have before you'd start to see a problem. I've yet to see the slightest indication of disease or retardation. Maybe in professional puppy mills, but please don't confuse me with those people."

On a purely biological basis, temporarily leaving moral standards to one side, why should humans be so different from other mammals?

 

[Xanatico]

I don´t think there´s a reason why they should be. However those dog breeders may well be wrong. After all you got plenty of dog breeds with problems caused by this. There are also societies around the world where you can see the damage inbreeding has done in humans.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

However those dog breeders may well be wrong. After all you got plenty of dog breeds with problems caused by this.

But wouldn't that be much more a problem with lap-type dogs rather than hunting dogs? A good hunting dog has to be strong, healthy and intelligent.

There are also societies around the world where you can see the damage inbreeding has done in humans.

Could you be more specific?

 

[rynner2]

Austrian 'hid daughter in cellar'

A 73-year-old Austrian is under arrest on suspicion of hiding his daughter in a cellar for 24 years and fathering seven children with her, police say.

The existence of the woman, believed missing since 1984 and now 42, emerged apparently after a teenage child fell ill and had to be taken to hospital.

Both the woman and teenage girl are receiving medical treatment and the other children are in care.

A police investigation in Amstetten, Lower Austria Province, is continuing.

The suspect, named only as Josef F, was arrested on suspicion of incest and keeping his daughter in captivity.

One of the children the man fathered died in infancy, police believe.

DNA tests will be taken to establish whether Josef F was indeed their father.

Placed in care

The alleged incest and abduction came to light after a search was begun by the authorities for the mother of the sick 19-year-old girl.

Since her discovery, her alleged mother, named as Elisabeth F, has been receiving medical and psychological treatment, police said.

She appeared "greatly disturbed" psychologically during questioning and agreed to talk only after authorities assured her that she would no longer have to have contact with her father, and that her children would be taken care of, they added.

The six children are three boys and three girls aged between five and 20.

Police spokesman Franz Polzer told reporters they had been taken to a safe location.

"They are all in psychological care in a secure institution in a clinic here in this area," he said.

"They are being cared for individually - those between 12 and 16 years of age who grew up with their grandparents, and two boys who, when they came out yesterday with their mother, saw the daylight for the first time in their lives."

'Dead baby burnt'

The police issued a statement giving details of the alleged abuses Elisabeth recounted to them.

She said she had been sexually abused by her father since the age of 11.

Josef allegedly lured her into the cellar of their house in Amstetten on 28 August 1984, drugging and handcuffing her before locking her up.

"Abused continuously during the 24-year-long imprisonment", Elisabeth bore six children while a seventh, one of a set of twins, died soon after birth.

The dead baby was allegedly taken out of the cellar and burnt by Josef.

Elisabeth said Joseph had provided her and three of her children, who were locked up along with her, with clothing and food.

His wife Rosemarie had allegedly not been aware of what was going on.

A police spokesman quoted by Reuters said the 19-year-old girl, named as Kerstin F, was dropped off at the Amstetten hospital last weekend.

"The girl is seriously ill and is fighting for her life," the spokesman said.

The discovery of another Austrian woman, who was held captive in a cellar by an abductor for more than eight years, gripped the country in 2006.

Natascha Kampusch finally escaped from her kidnapper, 44-year-old Wolfgang Priklopil, who killed himself shortly afterwards.

Ms Kampusch was abducted at the age of 10 in 1998 and held in a small, windowless cellar beneath Priklopil's garage in the commuter town of Strasshof, 25km (15 miles) outside Vienna.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7369851.stm

 

[liveinabin]

Austrian 'hid daughter in cellar'

A 73-year-old Austrian is under arrest on suspicion of hiding his daughter in a cellar for 24 years and fathering seven children with her, police say.



His wife Rosemarie had allegedly not been aware of what was going on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7369851.stm

That is just dreadful.
The wife must have known what was going on surely.
Did she not wonder where her daughter had gone or where the babies kept coming from. I can't imagine for one moment that a woman can go through labour six times without any medical intervention and not make enough noise for someone in the same house to hear.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

His wife Rosemarie had allegedly not been aware of what was going on.

Is there any man anywhere who could hide a mistress (forget about incest for a second) in his basement for 24 years and father seven children by her (one now 20 years old!) without his wife having a clue as to what is going on?

I'm turning Flat Earther. That's a lot easier to believe. All I have to do for proof is to look out the window.

P. S. Rosemary West didn't know what was going on either.

 

[PeniG]

The capacity of people to not notice things they don't want to know is considerable; but I think if we don't let the people of Dachau off the hook, we shouldn't let this woman off, either! What did she think had happened when her daughter disappeared?

Concerning the perils of inbreeding, in humans or dogs, everyone I know who loves dogs and dislikes the AKC blames the sorry state of modern "purebreds" - hip displasia in German Shepherds, eye and respiratory problems in Pekingese, etc. - on deliberate inbreeding. It's not called "hybrid vigor" for nothing.

And inbreeding is in the news today thanks to the FLDS. NPR doesn't have the story on its website yet, but it was discussed this morning, and it was 18 years ago that claims of fumerase deficiency due to inbreeding surfacing in the FLDS community were first made:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit/full
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/2 ... 97975.html


I am ambivalent about the reporting on the FLDS generally, because frankly I believe the FLDS is being scapegoated for doing things more or less openly that the surrounding community (my old home town!) has winked at for years and carrying certain attitudes to what no one wants to admit is their logical conclusion. But fumerase defieciency is a medical question, not a moral one, and is a lot more conducive to objective investigation than the he-said-she-said-who's-to-say of other issues.

 

[GNC]

There was an Austrian rozzer on the radio just there who said that no matter how loudly you shout or scream, you won't be able to be heard from that cellar. Doesn't explain where the wife though those new children were coming from over the years, however.

 

[Zilch5]

Few news stories have turned my stomach like this one!

Where's the "chunder" emoticon?

 

[OldTimeRadio]

I am ambivalent about the reporting on the FLDS generally....

It is Warren Jeffs' arrant racism that disturbs me the most, much more than whether a woman is mature enough for marriage at 16 or 18. The immorality of the first should be both apparent and repugnant to all, but the "morality" of the second is decided on the whims of state legislators' pens, and has gone up and down like an oven thermometer over the past century.

 

[stu neville]

His wife Rosemarie had allegedly not been aware of what was going on.

Is there any man anywhere who could hide a mistress (forget about incest for a second) in his basement for 24 years and father seven children by her (one now 20 years old!) without his wife having a clue as to what is going on?

Well, not to mention his prolonged construction of a subterranean complex beneath his own house, which isn't really a "when you've a spare half-hour" job.

"It's alright dear, I'm just going to store this bathroom suite, fridge, cooker, sofa, beds, ventilation system etc in the cellar, and once or twice a week for twenty four years take some groceries down there. Why? Oh well, you know. Nothing really... just going to work on my model boat collection. Yes, that's it.

"Ooooh, by the way, nearly forgot; our long-missing teenage daughter popped by again while you were out - she's fine but couldn't stop - but she's left another baby with us. Isn't that nice? Sends hugs and she'll catch up with you eventually."

Just how dim is his wife?

 

[PeniG]

The usual mechanism at work when abuse is being ignored in a household - the "elephant in the living room" phenomenon - involves fear and dependency. The abuser is either so frightening, or so essential (the main breadwinner), or both, that as a matter of survival the entire family, including the primary victim, accepts the necessity of having a sacrifice member. Being abused is part of the assigned familial role and is justified as not that bad really, as voluntarily protecting the "more vulnerable" (and implicitly more worthwhile) members, as somehow deserved, etc., at the same time that it's being ignored. The family doesn't know because it doesn't let itself know and everyone pretends very hard that things are normal. The family abuser, the primary beneficiary of the pretense, makes it easier by covering his tracks and creating a facade of normal life. The family victim, having accepted that role as legitimate, cooperates in maintaining that facade.

This sort of choosing not to know is at least comprehensible, and often breaks down if the abuser breaks the silent family compact and picks on the "wrong" family member. This is common in cases of women who stop letting their husbands beat them the moment he threatens a kid, and of older kids acting as a buffer between a parent and younger siblings. It can also break down when the victim has an epiphany and rejects the assigned role; or when another family member gets access to power and makes a moral decision to change the family dynamic. "I make more money than you now; I'm bigger than you now; I made friends with a cop; and you will never touch my sister/brother/child/parent again."

Since the daughter was removed from the family structure but not from the premises; since she had to be fed out of family funds; since she kept adding children to the household - it is very hard to apply this paradigm to this situation. Nothing about it was remotely normal, and no head of household is scary enough to change that.

 

[rynner2]

Mystery upon mystery...

Austria: Police questions as Josef Fritzl clues suggest accomplice
Roger Boyes in Amstetten

Pressure mounted on the Austrian authorities yesterday amid claims that bungling by police and local officials may have prolonged the agony of Elisabeth Fritzl, who was held in a dungeon and sexually abused by her father for almost a quarter of a century.

The investigation - though it has resulted in a confession and detention of the father, Josef Fritzl - is increasingly being questioned by Austrians who have been shocked by the case.

Franz Polzer, the police chief of Lower Austria, stonewalled as he was bombarded with questions from the media about the conduct of the case. He emphasised that Mr Fritzl, the father of seven children from an incestuous relationship, had acted alone in imprisoning his family in a cramped cellar beneath his home for 24 years.

“We are not conducting an investigation into a crime involving accomplices,” he said. But Colonel Polzer also announced that the unravelling of the case was due to an anonymous tip-off.

Elisabeth, the 42-year-old victim, was detained in the grounds of the clinic where her critically ill daughter, 19 - one of her seven children - was being treated. The police seized Elisabeth, suspecting her of child neglect until she told the full story of her existence. Their action raises the question of who tipped off the police if not an accomplice? “Knowing about a crime is not the same as being an accomplice,” said Colonel Polzer. “The informant asked anonymity and we will respect that.” The police seem determined to rule out any possibility of someone being in league with Mr Fritzl.

Yet more clues point to third-party involvement. The door to the dungeon - which had received building permission as a nuclear fallout shelter - weighed 300kg (660lb) and could only have been hinged into position with the help of someone else. Mr Fritzl, moreover, went on several holidays, including at least one three-week stay in Thailand, leaving Elisabeth and her children in the cellar.

Even if the small pantry was full of cans it is unlikely that there would have been enough food to feed them. And there are still questions about how the imprisoned relatives disposed of their rubbish. Colonel Polzer blocked questions on the issue and seemed even to deny knowledge of Mr Fritzl's holidays and absences.

“If there is a home video from this Thailand trip then we would like the media to give it to us and we will then think about it.” The video, shown widely on television, shows Mr Fritzl and a friend from Munich riding on an elephant (off-camera commentary: “Hey, Sepp [Mr Fritzl's nickname] you had better show this to your wife to convince her that we're on safari, not hunting for humans”).

This has been ruled by the police as irrelevant. So far, the case is based on only two hours of testimony from Elisabeth, a partial confession from her father and DNA results, which confirm that he had an incestuous relationship. All further questioning of Mr Fritzl has been delayed until next week.

The key question so far has been why Mr Fritzl's sexual history was not taken into account. Although he was convicted of rape in the late 1960s, this record was expunged under an Austrian law that seeks to rehabilitate offenders after their sentence. “The essential lesson from this case is that previous convictions for sex crimes should be taken into account in the case of adoption,” said the Die Presse newspaper yesterday.

It is a call that has been echoed across Austria as outrage grows about the crime. Colonel Polzer emphasised that the investigation would continue for months and that “in the interests of ensuring that such a crime is never repeated” will seek to reconstruct in detail the last 25 years of Josef Fritzl's life. To that end, the police have been searching other properties owned across Austria by Mr Fritzl, 73.

But many basic elements of the investigation have not even been started. Rosemarie, his 68-year-old wife, has yet to be questioned. Police merely asked her whether she knew what was going on and found her denial credible.

No attempt has been made to track down all the tenants who have rented rooms in the house since 1984. One, Sabine Kirschbichler, lived for two years in the house recently and told the magazine Brigitte that she frequently saw Mr Fritzl carrying heavy bags of shopping into the cellar after dark. “Now, I realise why we weren't allowed to rent cellar space,” she said.

The local authorities have tried to fend off criticism that they ignored suspicious signs from the house.

“Elisabeth ran away from that house as a girl, police searched for her, brought her back and delivered her back into the violent embrace of her father,” says Hedwig Woelfl, the director of a child protection centre in Austria. “Running away from home was a clear sign of unhappiness ... but nobody apparently showed any interest in the fate of this girl.”

The chief executive of the region, Hans Heinz Lenze, showed reporters documents proving that his council's go-ahead for the adoption of three of Ms Fritzl's children was legal: no trace of a sex crime could be found. Social welfare teams visited the house 21 times, but never looked around. Yet the building had in the space of a decade registered one missing person and made the claim that three babies had been dumped on the doorstep.

The Fritzl home, in a busy street, was constantly visited by bureaucrats. Building inspectors checked out the underground bunker - before it was used as a prison - and fire safety inspectors checked the incinerator that was used to burn a baby's body and was metres away from the dungeon. The inspection team pronounced the ventilation shaft safe, gave Mr Fritzl the appropriate stamp and left.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 850641.ece

 

[rynner2]

Concerning the perils of inbreeding, in humans or dogs, everyone I know who loves dogs and dislikes the AKC blames the sorry state of modern "purebreds" - hip displasia in German Shepherds, eye and respiratory problems in Pekingese, etc. - on deliberate inbreeding. It's not called "hybrid vigor" for nothing.

And inbreeding is in the news today thanks to the FLDS. NPR doesn't have the story on its website yet, but it was discussed this morning, and it was 18 years ago that claims of fumerase deficiency due to inbreeding surfacing in the FLDS community were first made....

Coincidentally, the latest crime novel I'm reading also relates to this theme.

Part of the plot revolves around a hi-tech research lab, largely funded by Middle East money, looking for genetic therapy for problems like stillbirth and congenital malformations, which are twice as likely when the couple are first cousins - which (the author claims, citing the WHO) is the case in over 10% of marriages in predominantly Muslim parts of the world.

 

[goth13girl666]

incest

however you look at it you must in your own mind think incest is WRONG in every sense of the word.
how can you find your own family members attractive??? its not the type of thing classed as the norm, although you are right it does happen, whether its a distant relative rare blood related of close relatives you cannot in any way percieve this as normal

 

[PeniG]

Oh, we must, must we? :?

There are many social as well as biological reasons for intrafamilial sex to be taboo, and we have an enculturated "squick factor" for that reason; but a squick is not in and of itself a moral imperative, and a lot of people do in fact lack it, or there wouldn't be any need for a taboo. People get the same level of squick from same-sex, interethnic, and age-disaparate pairings between sane consenting adults, and these squicks have led people to oppress such pairings in ways that range from unfair to horrific. (See the history of lynching in America for examples.) You need a better justification than "But it's gross!" to meddle in other people's sex lives.

Also, though all societies have incest taboos, the ways of reckoning who falls within the parameters of a taboo vary a lot. If you come from a strictly matrilineal culture, for example, acts that would be incestuous with your mother's brother would not be with your father's brother; but if you come from a clan-based system, you may be committing incest if you have sexual relations with someone from a hundred miles away whose genetic link with you is ten generations old. (That's why Tony Hillerman's Navajo characters introduce themselves by stating their clan affiliations but often as not don't mention their own names.)

If I found out tomorrow that I was switched at birth with my husband's sister, so that I'm his full sister and have no relationship with the brother I was raised beside, I'm pretty sure all my squick would still be reserved for my social brother. It's impossible to predict how the knowledge would affect my marriage, but I guarantee we wouldn't be basing our decisions on what total strangers thought we should do because we gross them out.

 

[rynner2]

I'm reading about ancient Egypt at present.

Pharoahs were often married to their sisters, it seems.

Which may explain why Egyptian culture suffered so many ups and downs, and ultimately failed to survive.

There again, many other cultures suffered many ups and downs, and ultimately failed to survive, without the excuse of incest.... :?

 

[PeniG]

Egyptian Pharoanic marriage is often brought up, but I'm not sure how much it mattered in the overall scheme of things. Yes, Pharoah married one of his sisters, but he also typically had many concubines and the children of concubines could inherit. In fact - possibly as a result of high infant mortality - the potential pharoah pool in any given generation appears to have been sizable. The sister he married might, or might not, share a mother with him. The sister-marriage was a symbolic act and we do not know what proportion of them were consummated. Though they went through a bunch of dynasties, the state of Egypt was relatively stable over a long period of time and things that caused upheavals in the upper levels of society don't seem to have trickled down much. Think how quickly the status quo was restored after Ankhenaten's heretical reign overhauled the system, for example. At most levels of Egyptian life, the genetic health of the Pharoah was less important than his symbolic role, and as long as the Nile flooded when it was supposed to, evem that had a certain amount of give in it.

 

[Stormkhan]

Part of the reason for marriage to close relations & siblings in Ancient Egypt was, oddly enough, stability. If you had a God-like ruler, who could they "officially" marry but someone from the same blood, the closer the better. There were plenty of other subsidiary pressures but a clear descent was of the utmost importance. Hence bloodlines were traced via wives and concubines, as there could be no ambiguity over legitimacy.

 

[Xanatico]

Isn´t that also part of the reason why so much european royalty married each other? Apart from it being used as political alliances.

There are communities where inbreeding has caused problems, the amish being one of them. Pakistan I believe also have quite a problem, resulting in a high amount of microcephalics being born. There´s supposed to be a town in the US where all the people are related to each other, and have resulting health problems. I believe National Geographic was the one to write about that, though the location was kept secret. The island of Tristan De Cunha was colonised by 6 couples or so, and the ca 400 inhabitants today are all descended from them, yet seem to have no ill effects from that.

 

[rynner2]

Sunday, May 11, 2008
Is marriage between cousins a health hazard?

A major medical row will erupt this month when scientists and health experts hold two key meetings to discuss the controversial subject of marriages between cousins and their impact on health in Britain.

The debates will be held by the Royal Society of Medicine as part of its 100 Years of Medical Genetics celebrations on 23 May, and by the Progress Educational Trust at Clifford Chance in east London on 29 May. Both will reveal deep divisions among scientists.

Some researchers and politicians say inter-cousin unions, which are highly prevalent among British Pakistanis, have led to a striking rise in the incidence of rare recessive disorders, many of them fatal, in areas such as Bradford. The trend has led to calls for cousin marriages to be banned.

'In our local school for deaf children, half the pupils are of Asian origin though Asians only form about 20 per cent of the population,' said Ann Cryer, MP for Keighley. 'I also know of several sets of parents in my constituency who are cousins and whose children are severely disabled. I have no doubt that the mothers and fathers being closely related to each is a key factor. More...

http://bonjourplanetearth.blogspot.com/ ... ealth.html

Other links on page

 

[ihatethatmonkee3]

i find it surprising that, with the Austrian case in the papers, christians are saying how immoral and wrong incest is. this is a religion whose whole lineage is based on adam and eve, not adam eve and some other inhabitants of the garden. the fact that one of the biggest religions of our times is actually based upon incest, after all how else could cain procreate otherwise? the fact that god only made man first, then woman, but not men then women is a pretty big point. you read the opening stories of the old testament and what are you really going to think.

creationists have now got to a point where their story of how we got here is being taugh, but the theory of evolution is not taught. as it is a "theory", while creationism is a "fact", should it not still be taught? no, because that would give the children a wrong moral compass.

in reply to peniG's responce to goth13girl666's post, it did not say that people should stop because it will gross other people out, it said that surely the majority of people must realise that it is wrong. even the majority of people actually in incestuous relationships must realise that otherwise they wouldn't keep it secret for fear of public and family reactions.

there are laws in place that state incest is illegal in many countries, though as someone else pointed out, in america, some states have no laws against it. and if these states are force-feeding creationism down the throats of children, is there not a danger that those children will become involved in incestuous relationships in the future and not understand what it is that is wrong.

also to peniG, yes i can understand that if you found out that your husband was also your biological brother, and the brother you thought you had was actually from another family, that you and your husband would find it hard to turn the feelings you have for each other off. but as such mariages would be anulled in the uk, with both partners forced to moved out of the marital home, can you really believe that staying together would really be an option?

 

[OldTimeRadio]

there are laws in place that state incest is illegal in many countries, though as someone else pointed out, in america, some states have no laws against it. and if these states are force-feeding creationism down the throats of children, is there not a danger that those children will become involved in incestuous relationships in the future and not understand what it is that is wrong.

I'm unaware of any State with no laws against incest, so could you be more specific? (Unless, of course, you are referring to first-cousin marriages, which are legal in about a quarter of the States.)

....with both partners forced to move out of the marital home

In the United States it is by no means uncommon for an unmarried brother and sister to share a home together. So of our married brother-sister couple agreed to refrain from further sex, how would it differ?

 

[plusk]

Hi IHTM3,

With respect, I don't think you have read the first chapters of Genesis very thoroughly.

Nowhere does it say that Adam and Eve had daughters or that incest was involved in propagating the human race. What it does say is:

And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden and from amongst the people living there he took himself a wife".(Genesis 4:16,17

.

 

[ihatethatmonkee3]

hi plusk i will admit that it has been some time since i read the bible but the point i was driving at more was that god created adam then created eve and they were to live in eden. if they did reproduce, then how else would the human race have survived from the same biological beginnings. if there are people living in a land outside of eden, then why are we not told about them beforehand? why did god create adam and eve seperate from the people in the east? perhaps it is then just a metaphor of how god created us all equal, but some are more equal than others.

 

[plusk]

Hi IHTM3

"Why were we not told?". That's a very good question.

I, a luke-warm non-practising Catholic, once pointed out the passage quoted above to my mum (a fervent Catholic, although very well-educated; she has a Master's degreee - which she got in the 1930s - not bad for a woman and used to be a Maths university lecturer). She was totally non-plussed. Finally she said in a lame voice "The priest told us we were only allowed to read the first chapter of Genesis".

From the Church's point of view, if there were other people around when Adam and Eve were created, then the whole theological edifice of Original Sin crumbles; unless we start assuming that only Cain's progeny survived and all other humans died in some kind of natural disaster or something. Funnily enough this is not at all in conflict with the modern scientific view of humans having passed through a "genetic bottleneck" at some stage.

So over the centuries the Church has glossed over the passage in question. To this day if you want to see a fundamentalist Christian squirm just point it out to them.

Nevertheless, the Church has never taught that we are the progeny of an incestuous relationship betwen Cain and un-mentioned sisters.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Hi IHTM3Finally she said in a lame voice "The priest told us we were only allowed to read the first chapter of Genesis".

The Catholic Church has often been accused of forbidding its member from reading the Bible but this is the first actual example I've ever heard. I was never so instructed and had both a Douay Bible and a King James Bible from an early age.

To this day if you want to see a fundamentalist Christian squirm just point it out to them.

But I learned the verse FROM Fundamentalist Christians, or at least they were the first to discuss it. And they weren't squirming in the least. (It was, if fact, in that same Baptist Bible class where I learned about "Ishtar eggs.")

Nevertheless, the Church has never taught that we are the progeny of an incestuous relationship betwen Cain and un-mentioned sisters.

But that's pretty much what I was taught in Roman Catholic education:

"Since there was only one family on Earth, incest was obviously permitted at that time."

 

[plusk]

Hi OTR,


The fact that the Church used to forbid lay people to read the Bible is very well established. I've just typed "lay people forbidden to read Bible" into Google and got 27,500 hits. The first one I opened (it happens to be a Greek Orthodox site) - http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/artic ... le7068.asp - says

Before this time the use of Bible in the West was forbidden in any language other than Latin. The Latin translation, from the original Hebrew and Greek, was made by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It became the authoritative Bible for the Western Church and was 'known as the Vulgate. The reading of the Bible, even in the Latin, was forbidden the lay people without permission

This site gives specific examples up to recent times.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/banned.htm

As far as I know the Church has never formally allowed lay people to read the Bible, it just happened.

With regard to your fundamentalists - fair enough. There are all sorts around. However, when I was a student I derived hours of harmless amusement letting various types of Christian and even Lubavitch Hasidic Jews go on about all humans being descended from Adam and Eve and then pointing out this passage to them. 99% of them had never got as far as Genesis IV in their reading.