Incorruptibles

[Anonymous]

I remember reading somwehere that one greek island (Santorini?) so many preserved bodies that they made a saying of it. In those day, it was mostly preserved=vampire, and saying "sending a vampire to santorini" meant doing something totally unncessary, based on the fact that Santorini was lousy with vampires. It had something to do with the soil. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Anonymous]

The self mummification of Shingon priests in Japan might interest if your looking for something outside Europe. They spend years eating pine sap to preserve themselves after death.

A quick google came up with this, but theres lots of other info out there.

Buddhist Mummies of Japan
Reference Pages Index -- Oniko Goes To Japan Main Page

In August, 1998, I had the unusual pleasure of meeting a dead Buddhist priest face-to-face. I was on a pilgrimage to three sacred mountains in the Yamagata prefecture, and had stopped for the night at a town in short distance of the first of these, Haguro. That town, Tsuruoka, just happened to be home to one of the mummified Buddhist priests that I knew existed in Japan, so I couldn't resist the opportunity to visit. At the time, all I knew about these mummies was that #1) they existed, and that #2) these gentlemen had somehow volentarily mummified themselves while still alive. I've since learned more.
For the record:

=For those of you new to Buddhism, the basic premise of the religion is that the whole of the phenomenal world -- everything you can see, hear, touch, experience -- is just an illusion that prevents you from seeing what is really true; that you are part of a greater being that stands separate and beyond our phenomenal world. As long as you don't see this, you will be continually reborn back into this world in an endless series of illusionary lives. So the goal of Buddhist priests is to separate themselves from this world enough that at death they become one with the greater being known as Buddha instead of being re-born into this world yet again.

What this adds up to is that some Buddhist sects -- most notably the Shingon sect -- attempt to train their priests to deny the importance of their physical selves through a variety of self-mortification, such as the classic example of sitting for hours under ice-cold waterfalls while meditating. Ideally, as a priest becomes more like the greater Buddha, they will be far less concerned about themselves than others; one classic tale told and retold in Japan is the story of how Gautama [the founder of Buddhism in India, and the guy Americans usually think of when they say "Buddha"] chose to be reborn as a rabbit so that he could throw his body on a fire to feed a devotee that was starving. Personal life and death does not matter; but being kind to your fellow beings and guiding them towards self-realization of their greater connection to Buddha does.

Source:
http://www.sonic.net/~anomaly/japan/dbuddha.htm

Tetsuryou-kai
Buddhist Mummy of Nangakuji Temple,
in Tsuruoka, Yamagata Prefecture



Tetsuryou-kai [1815-1877]
At Nangakuji temple in Tsuruoka, Yamagata prefecture. This is the particular mummified Buddha that I visited in 1998; the first picture is the only photo I took that didn't have some form of reflection on the glass case completely ruining the view. I couldn't get closer without moving the stuff in front of the case... my next camera will have a better 'zoom', eh? The second picture is from the flyer the temple gave me about Tetsuryou-kai. I will add his story someday, when I get a decent translation.

Source:
http://www.sonic.net/~anomaly/japan/dbudd_b.htm

Mummies that made themselves

DIY Mummies

The mummies in question are the remains of an obscure cult of mountain-dwelling Buddhist monks known as the Yamabashi - literally "he who lies in the mountain" - famous for their extremely acetic lifestyle. To this day, the descendants of the "mummy monks" follow their stringent devotions in Dewa-sanzan, the three climatically harsh yet breathtakingly beautiful Dewa mountains of Yamagata prefecture. Their peculiar blend of religion mixes the worship practices of Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, mysticism, traditional folk religions, shamanism and primitive mountain worship.

About 700 to 1000 years ago, the Yamabashi happened upon the novel idea of self-mummification as a means to expedite Buddhahood and put an end to the painful cycle of rebirth they'd otherwise face. Hence, particularly fervent - or, some would argue, karmically ambitious - monks attempted to mummify themselves while they were still living by embarking on a long period of self-discipline, self-destruction and ultimately self-preservation.

Some sources cite the period of self-mummification as three years; others say it spanned as many as ten. Either way, it involved adherence to a strict diet designed to rid the body of all fat, wither the flesh and rot the internal organs. It began with the elimination of all carbo-rich cereal crops such as rice and barley, followed by the consumption of nothing more than fruit, berries and plant roots.

As the mummy wannabe began to lose weight, he would descend to a small underground room where he would place large candles around his body and light them, effectively drying himself out. Breathing through a bamboo pipe, he chanted sutras and awaited death. When death came, his emaciated body would be entombed for a period of three more years. During this time, the body would be further dried out by candles until the mummification process was complete.

A later example, involving a variation of the standard DIY mummification process, dates back - or rather, forward - to 1783. In this case, a particularly fervent 70-year-old monk known as Daijuku Bosatsu Shinnyokai Shonin voluntarily confined himself to an underground vault during which he consumed only lacquer through a bamboo pipe. While carrying on his devotions, he was literally mummified from the inside out.

Though it may sound like a fate worse than death, to a devout Buddhist who acknowledges the pain of being reborn as opposed to the pain of dying, self-mummification must have seemed like an attractive prospect: a means of fast-forwarding the wheel of rebirth to the ultimate destination of nirvana.

Source:
https://web.archive.org/web/2004121...hannelasia.com/selfmademummies/feature2.shtml

 

[Anonymous]

The mention of bone art reminded me of an artist whose name I cannot now remember and it's bugging me. He was around probably in the 1600's/1700's and made tableux and dioramas out of the skeletons of new born babys and human veins and other body matters.

Frederik Ruysch?



Alle de ontleed- genees- en heelkindige werken…van Fredrik Ruysch …. Vol. 3; Amsterdam, 1744. Etching with engraving. Frederik Ruysch (1638-1731) [anatomist].

Many other gorgeous images at source:
https://web.archive.org/web/20040225224015/http://www.spamula.net/blog/archives/000163.html

 

[Anonymous]

That's the one, thank you!!!! . That honestly had been bugging me, I had every book out that i could have seen it in. Next time I'll just PM you.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

The self mummification of Shingon priests in Japan might interest if your looking for something outside Europe. They spend years eating pine sap to preserve themselves after death.

Good call - I watched a documentary on this as part of Channel 4's mummy season (quite pos. that Discovery Channel doc) and was pondering the connection. Although they are strictly speaking mummies the key connection is the complex rituals they use (eating bark and drinkin slightly poisonous spring water) which drastically reduce the activity of the stomach bacteria and this is one of the most important aspects of preserving the body. Obviously the Egyptian's did this the more straightforward way (by whipping them out and putting them in jars) but there are mnay paths to mummihood

I think the critical difference between incorruptibles and mummies is the actual apparent good preservation of body tissue (rather than being more of a bag of dried skin and bone - I know people like that). The activity of the stomach bacteria is stopped by the anaerobic conditions and it is the actual alkali environment that results in the saponification of the body fat and tissues giving the strange lifelike look of the body.

JerryB: Got any details?

Emps

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

There is a reference to the manufacture of soap in the Old Testement, can think of the reference right now but IIRC it involves goat fat and the ashes that remain after willow bark is burnt.

From The Pharmaceutical Journal Vol 263 No 7076 p985-989 (1999):

There is no clear evidence that the use of soap for personal hygiene pre-dates the Christian era. Two mentions appear in the Old Testament. "For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me," says the book of Jeremiah. A more modern translation reads: "Though you wash with soda and use soap lavishly. . . ." There are doubts as to whether this is a reference to true soap. It has been suggested that possibly a lye, made by mixing alkaline plant ash with water, was referred to, or possibly some form of Fuller's earth. This view is perhaps supported by the second mention, on virtually the final page of the Old Testament, in the book of Malachi, in which both the authorised version of 1611 and the modern translation read virtually identically: "He is like a refiner's fire, like a fuller's soap."

Full text here:
https://www.frenchsoaps.co.uk/pages/a-short-history-of-soap

The Babylonians added alkaline plant ash (potash) to water. Other primitive purifying agents were fine clay that easily absorbs impurities from oil and fat, and trees and plants containing a soapy substance called saponin. The Old Testament mentions a cleansing product made of tree bark ashes alone. Soap itself was probably first made in the Nile valley by Phoenicians.

Full text here:
https://web.archive.org/web/2004021...en=CTGY&Store_Code=soap&Category_Code=2100#01

Emps

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

I am being slack - here are some good resources on incorruptibles:

---
Books:

Incorruptibles by Joan C. Cruz

Continuously popular since it first appeared in 1977, "The""Incorruptibles" remains the acknowledged classic on the bodies of saints that did not undergo decomposition after death. Many remained fresh and flexible for years, or even centuries. After explaining both natural and artificial mummification, the author shows that the incorruption of the saints' bodies fits neither category but rather constitutes a much greater phenomenon that is unexplained by modern science to this day. The author presents 102 canonized saints, beati, and venerables, summarizing their lives, the discovery of their incorruption, and investigations by Church and medical authorities. The incorruptible bodies of saints are a consoling sign of Christ s victory over death, a confirmation of the dogma of the Resurrection of the Body, a sign that the Saints are still with us in the Mystical Body of Christ, and proof of the truth of the Catholic Faith-for only in the Catholic Church do we find this phenomenon. Impr. 342 pgs 33 Illus, PB.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895550660/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895550660/

More general:

The Mummy Congress: Science, Obsession, and the Everlasting Dead
by Heather Pringle

A study of the mysteries of mummies explores the world of the scientists who devote their own lives to the study of them and examines how mummies have been used, venerated, worshiped, collected, and studied over the course of nearly seven thousand years.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786865512/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786865512/

---

Links:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AlQ4

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Saints/

https://web.archive.org/web/20040611131312/http://members.aol.com/ccmail/incorruptbodies.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20040626084329/http://www.nhne.com/misc/incorruptibles.html

https://web.archive.org/web/2004060...ssbrain.com/artaskcb/publish/article_37.shtml

Emps

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

More stuff:

---
Some more general reading:

Modern Mummies: The Preservation of the Human Body in the Twentieth Century
by Christine Quigley

For many, a mummy is an Egyptian pharaoh, wrapped in cloth, found thousands of years later in a pyramid by archaeologists. But mummies need not be ancient. Modern-day mummies can be found under glass in special tombs built in their honor, in private collections where they have come to rest after decades on the carnival circuit, in dissecting rooms of medical schools, and in the basements of funeral homes waiting for decades to be claimed by the next of kin. Stories about the famous (Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Eva Peron) and the not-so-famous (Leslie Hansell wanted her body mummified to bask in the sun rather than being buried in the cold ground) mummies are told here in great detail. The book includes a comprehensive study of the successful prolonged preservation of the human body, and delves into the law and science of modern mummification.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786404922/


Looking for a Miracle: Weeping Icons, Relics, Stigmata, Visions & Healing Cures
by Joe Nickell

The willingness of people to believe in magical icons, mystical relics, and miraculous pictures (like the Image of Guadalupe) is almost as curious as these phenomena themselves. Though they cry out for scientific investigation, millions of people blindly accept them as fact.

Historical and paranormal investigator Joe Nickell confronts such strange events, powers, and objects as the Shroud of Turin, bleeding or weeping statues, burning handprints, liquefying blood, ecstatic visions, miraculous cures, and people speaking in tongues in Looking for a Miracle. Departing from standard critiques of religion, Nickell carefully investigates the evidence relating to specific claims.

Religious believers and rationalists alike have much to learn from this revealing examination of the evidence for the miraculous.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758406/

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For recent developments:

Mummy News:
https://web.archive.org/web/20040705080235/http://www.mummytombs.com/main.news.htm

-------------
More specific stuff:


The case of the petrified girl. (Investigation of a legend)
Skeptical Inquirer, Jan-Feb, 1999, by Joe Nickell:

.pdf file attached at foot of this post:
https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/1999/01/22164958/p15.pdf

http://skepdic.com/incorrupt.html

They mention Paramahansa Yogananda - from his official site:

On March 7, 1952, Paramahansa Yogananda entered mahasamadhi, a God-illumined master's conscious exit from the body at the time of physical death. His passing was marked by an extraordinary phenomenon. A notarized statement signed by the Director of Forest Lawn Memorial-Park testified: "No physical disintegration was visible in his body even twenty days after death....This state of perfect preservation of a body is, so far as we know from mortuary annals, an unparalleled one....Yogananda's body was apparently in a phenomenal state of immutability."

http://www.yogananda-srf.org/py-life/life2.html#mahasamadhi

See this article for an inevstigation of the above and some other cases:

http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/PaIncorruptibility.htm

Clearly a lot of people are overstating the actual state of preservation but I also find the skeptic approach a little dismissive - it may be more common than is often stated but there is still a very interesting process going on (both physically and religiously).

I'd also be very interested in the secretions form the incorruptibles - I wonder if that might be part of some kind of process.

[edit: But I suspect that they wouldn't let me take a sample and find someone with a GC-MS

I also supect there is a connection with the recent report in FT (pos. 3 or 4 issues ago - I have lent my brother the last 6 months worth so I can't check) whereby a lead coffin was found to contain some kind of ooze. ]

----------
Bog bodies - which are probably closer to incorruptibles than actual mummies:

Bodies from the Bog
by James M. Deem

A fascinating look at the ancient European culture of the bog people describes how, in 1952, Danish workmen found the body of a dead man hidden in peat, and what scientists discovered about the man and his world.

http://jamesmdeem.com/books.bogbodies.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395857848/

I also dusted off my copy of P.V. Glob's "The Bog People" (possibly one of the classics on this and found an interesting case:

By a fatal mischance a peasant and a girl were drowned in an English bog in a snowstorm on 14 January 1675. They were found on 3 May the same year but were buried again in the bog on the instructions of the coroner. Twenty-nine years later an inquisitive peasant opened the double grave and found the two bodies quite fresh, with the skin unbroken and maintaining their original colour as at the time of death. After that the luckless couple were exhibited annually at the local fair and the surviving relatives did not succeed until 1716 in putting a stop to this macabre display.

page 148 of the 1977 edition.

edit: If anyone is interested I have found the original reference to this and will scan it in and put it online - he was out by a year too - it was 1674.]

Also on the BBC's NW news there was a report on Lindow Man usggesting that it wasn't a triple sacrificial killing - the dsicussion was sketchy but it doesn't sound like a good arguement but we'll see.

Emps

 

[Anonymous]

There's also a thread on mummified Buddhist monks here.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

It also gets mentioned in the classic Fortean reference books:

The Unexplained (Mysteries of Mind, Space & Time) - Volume 13 pages 1509 - 1516

Rough Guide to Unexplained Phenomena pages 86 - 90.

and in the latter they say:

The usual processes of mummification - drying out, using preservativess, petrification or saponification (literally turning to soap) - seem hardly to apply in such well-documented circumstances.

but I don't think we can be quite so fast to dismiss adipocere/saponification as, is so foten repeated, we don't have any clear overviews - the best books like Cruz's and:

Herbert Thurston (1952) The Physical Phenomena of Mysticism. London: Burns Oates

are general from the believer side of things and no real attempt to fully assess the state of the bodies or the solidity of the claims has been made. I'm not sure about this book that I also came across:

The Incorruptible Flesh (1988)
Bodily Mutation and Mortification in Religion and Folklore, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press
Piero Camporesi, Translated by Tania Croft-Murray

The Rough Guide continues:

Consider the fate of St Isidore........

In May 1969, St Isidore's body was transferred to Madrid's cathedral, where it was exposed for ten days. Many thousands filed past the "darkened, rigid, but perfect" 800 year-old body.

The last part of the report doesn't suggest to me that it is strictly an incorruptible - more of natural mummy. I suspect that there is a range of things at work producing a possible range of preservations. Until we have a more comprehensive study of the bodies and their burial conditions it would be tricky to rule out saponification for the better preserved specimens

-----------
FT reports:

FT 159:
https://web.archive.org/web/2004101...ntimes.com/articles/159_saintspreserved.shtml

Also FT29:9; FT62:37; FT140:25

------------
What I do ind interesting is that they are part of a range of religious (and by extension Fortean) phenomena like:

---
Odour of sanctity:

from Incorruptibles:

St. Thérèse of Lisieux and St. Bernadette (of Lourdes fame):
https://web.archive.org/web/2003072...dreview.org/2002/feb02/dwightlongenecker.html

Blessed Maria Anna (Ladroni) of Jesus
https://web.archive.org/web/20041013173526/http://www.jowynn.com/cures.htm

and living saints like Padre Pio:
https://web.archive.org/web/20041022165402/https://www.ewtn.com/padrepio/mystic/bilocation.htm

---
Flows of oils and 'blood':

From Amazon reviews:

The mystery is "...further compounded ... (with) ...the observance of blood and clear oils" which flow from these incorruptibles. (Page 27).

She shows bodies that still have liquid and living blood inside, bodies that are still flexible, that exhale very agreeable perfum...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895550660/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895550660/

-------------------

I haven't included many examples as there are plenty more in the 2 books at the top of the page (I'll probably post a few more when I've got more time but it is late). I suppose whats interesting is that, while it would be easy to dsimiss these elements as misidentifications, misundersstandings, fakes, wishful thinking and even hysteria, if viewed from the perspective of adipocere/saponification they could be seen as parts of the process.

Clearly it all needs more study and testing (where possible) but its certainly a possibility.

Emps

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

A Lebanese Incorruptible

February 28, 2004
The Daily Star




With a steady hand and unflinching heart, an artist pays tribute to a patriot

Images of beloved Zghortan leader, local saint and town patriarch are spread worldwide

By Linda Dahdah
Special to The Daily Star

Breich, or Breich Hayleek, is the name Sarkis Mehrez Dahdah is commonly known by in the town of Zghorta. Still part craftsman, part artist, this 65-year-old former carpenter focuses his work primarily on depictions of the legendary 19th century Zghortan patriot, Youssef Bey Karam.

........

To Breich, Youssef Bey Karam, Our Lady of Zghorta and the Patriarch Estefan al-Douaihi are all saints. They made miracles to which he pays persistent tribute through his art.

In order to prove the holiness of the “Great Man” (yet another name for Karam), Breich lifts several of his outer-shirts to reveal a small vial pinned to his undershirt that he believes offers irrefutable proof of Karam’s sainthood.

Instead of producing some bit of bone or a piece of cloth, Breich raises a bloody cotton swap encased in glass in front of my eyes.

A few years ago, while he was changing the gauze that covers Youssef Bey Karam’s mummy in Saint George Church in Ehden, Breich took a cotton swap from the mummy’s mouth where he had seen blood. “Can you believe it? Blood! After 103 years! Isn’t it a miracle?” he said in astonishment.

Source:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111128035632/http://www.lebanonwire.com/0402/04022806DS.asp

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Sooooooooo my copy of Cruz's book turned up yesterday late afternoon but I haven't got around to getting stuck into it. Today the doorbell rang in the late afternoon and thinking it is the milkman come to collect his money I go to the door and find 3 people standing their. The impulse was to slam the door in their faces but they clearly won't JW so I let it ride. It appears the local priest has flown in a dozen hardcore catholics to go door to door checking up on local Catholics so after I told him my posiiton and he explained his (I think there is something ingrained in my that won't allow me to tell little wizened Irish fellas to cut a long story short - I nearly didn't escape from Dublin last time) we agreed that everything was super (I think I said super about 3 or 4 times) he asked if his sidekick could give me a present. Presents are great and I am quite a fan of religious presents and pamphlets (which has got me into bother a time or two) so I was happy to accept it. To my joy they handed over a nice coloured card with a picture of Jesus on it and (best of all) a Miraculous Medal with a little pamphlet explaining what it was and how it came to be made (the design was passed to St. Catherine Laboure).

Now as great as it is to have a Miraculous Medal I suddenyl thought "Now wouldn't it be a fantastic coincidence if St. Catheirne was incorrupt and in the book which turned up almost exactly 24 hours ago?". I scampered off and dug the book out and lo and behold there she is on pages 281 - 7 in remarkably good nick too:

https://web.archive.org/web/2004062...rter.com/fatherpeffley/Gallery/Gallery02.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20031118093705/http://membres.lycos.fr/gotier9/english.html

So although I wouldn't go around boasting of my Miraculous Medal (esp. as it seems to be made of the cheapest plastic known to man - although I'm not ungrateful as I now have a snazzy bookmark) I thought the weird coincidence was worth sharing.

I have to admit I was half tempted to chase them down the road to see if they fancied a bit of a chat but I managed to resist the temptation (I'd also taken my shoes off and a long haired, bearded and barefoot man running down the street towards them may have induced some kind of religious experience I wasn't really prepared to inflict on anyone (although if they come back the kettle is on).

Emps

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

OK the weirdness continues. I had to return my copy of Thurston's "The Physical Phenomena of Mysticism" to the library and took advantage of the poor dollar to snap up a copy from the States. It arrived quick smart and I open it to find a thank you for your order letter but something else fell out of the book. I pick up the folded piece of paper and on opening it oout I find out it is a cutting from something like the Catholic Herald and what is it on? The body of St. Catherine Laboure!!

Its a sign of....... something.

I have also now got my miraculous medal sellotaped to the little leaflet on St. Catherine Laboure and I am using it as a bookmark in Cruz's book. It looks like I have a bookmark for my new book too.

 

[gordonrutter]

Now as great as it is to have a Miraculous Medal I suddenyl thought "Now wouldn't it be a fantastic coincidence if St. Catheirne was incorrupt and in the book which turned up almost exactly 24 hours ago?". I scampered off and dug the book out and lo and behold there she is on pages 281 - 7 in remarkably good nick too:
Emps

Just got back from France and spent a jolly good time wandering around looking at saintly relics including herself. Got a metal copy of the medal and pics of her and several other incorruptibles. Some did look a little on the waxy side mind you!

Gordon

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Gordon: Excellent - I'm clearly going to have to visit the old girl so I'll PM you at some points for a few tips.

 

[gordonrutter]

Gordon: Excellent - I'm clearly going to have to visit the old girl so I'll PM you at some points for a few tips.

No probs - there are plenty of weird things of a similar nature to see

Gordon

 

[mandragoire]

Hibernation

After having been in hibernation for a couple of months, yes emps got your message, I have continued working on some interesting uncorrupt articles, my article about pietous uncorrupt bodies in Belgium is nearing completion though I haven't got a clue yet where I will publish it.

Also started working on an article on a dutch giant bog body which is almost finisged but again don't know where it will be published.

Does anyone have info on the link between ley lines and uncorruptability?

let's hope I don't fall asleep again...

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Re: Hibernation

Good to see you are back and it appears you have been doing plenty of interesting research. I look forward to reading it when it is published.

Incorrupt and ley lines? Its new to me but Catholics and leylines were never very comfortable bedfellows. If I stumble on somehing then I'll be sure to let you know.

 

[mandragoire]

ley lines

I found some material on dutch bodies and ley lines which had been lying uncorrupt for many years in a vault and according to the dutch "paranormal" book or was it a magazine (its good to have an aunt with an interest in this kind of stuff so I borrowed her mags) it was ley lines which were responsable for the undecaying state of the corpses. Interestingly enough the book said that leylines were also famous for preserving single corpses, but they never mentioned any examples

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Well I suppose if you have a comprehensive survey of Belgium's Incorrupt and access to a map of the leylines of Belgium............

 

[mandragoire]

ley lines

A complete survey of the uncorrupt in Belgium shouldn't be that hard, though some of these have one time or another been destroyed, but still this is the easy part, a complete web of ley lines in Belgium is much harder

 

[Yithian]

Re: Hibernation

... my article about pietous uncorrupt bodies in Belgium is nearing completion though I haven't got a clue yet where I will publish it.

Also started working on an article on a dutch giant bog body which is almost finisged but again don't know where it will be published. ...

You could try submitting it to FT.

 

[mandragoire]

publishinhg

Probably not, I send them a list of about 30 or 40 articles, all derived from a book I am writing on mummies, superstition and the supernatural and some other items, a year ago,they got back to me saying we will get back to you and they never did.

Fate (real giants in the low countries) mag accepted one as well as Northern Earth(mummified cats).

The most interesting one for FT is one about my giant bog body, contacted one of them and no reply. In the worst case I'll publish it myself.

Back to writing about interesting things

 

[mandragoire]

kahlebutz

After re-reading the posts I found it strange that no one mentioned Herr Kahlebutz a German landlord who allegedly killed a peasant girls boyfriend and thus after his death was forced not to decay, for those of you who know him, does anyone know if a book or booklet extists doing him in detail. I faintly recall that a famous photographer made a picture of him a couple of years ago

 

[mandragoire]

minerals

does anybody know what minerals or related substances preserve human and other remains? I know arsenic is one of these

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Do you mean in a natural or artificial setting?

The various substances in a big and some of the extracts of trees I think (there have been remarkably well preserved tree trunk burials).

Largely it is the actually environmental conditions - temperature, water conent, etc.

 

[mandragoire]

originally I thought of artificial but natural is also ok

 

[Anonymous]

Characteristics Of Incorruptible Catholic Bodies

"Incorruptibles - These type of preserved bodies started being discovered back in the early centuries after Christ, though surprisingly, they do not fall into either the accidental or deliberate preservation categories above. The causes for "incorruptibles" remaining free of decomposition have baffled scientists to this day. These bodies are discovered in many different environments, including environments that would typically cause an accidental or deliberately preserved corpse to decompose rapidly. They remain free of decay regardless of manner of burial, delay in burial, temperature, moisture, rough handling, frequent transference, having been covered in quicklime (a decaying agent), or proximity to other decaying corpses. They cannot be explained by science or reason. Some common characteristics of an incorruptible body:

ncorruptibles are typically found lifelike, moist, flexible, and contain a sweet scent that many say smells like roses or other flowers, for years after death.

Incorruptibles are almost never embalmed or treated in any way due to the religious order's beliefs that the person came from.

Incorruptibles remain free of decay, some for centuries, despite circumstances which normally cause decay such as being exposed to air, moisture, other decaying bodies, or other variables such as quicklime, which is typically applied to a corpse to accelerate decomposition.

Incorruptibles many times contain clear, flowing oils, perspiration, and flowing blood for years after death, where accidental or deliberately preserved bodies have never been recorded to have such characteristics.

Other partial incorruptibles have been found throughout the centuries where certain parts of the body decay normally, while other parts such as the heart or tongue remain perfectly free of decomposition.

What is most astounding of all is the fact that for each incorrupt body discovered, after research has been done to determine who the person was, it has always been determined that the person was an extremely devout Catholic. This inevitably leads to the question, How can the process of decay, which has no intelligence, choose which bodies to devour and not to devour, and why do they happen to be devout Catholics? This phenomena is simply miraculous."

https://web.archive.org/web/20041102221029/http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm

 

[Timble2]

There was a Fortean Times article on this topic a while back, it's on the site at:

https://web.archive.org/web/2004060...ntimes.com/articles/159_saintspreserved.shtml

However, I don't think it's solely a Catholic phenomenom and there's also stories that some of the so-called incorruptibles have been helped a bit.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Re: Characteristics Of Incorruptible Catholic Bodies

"What is most astounding of all is the fact that for each incorrupt body discovered, after research has been done to determine who the person was, it has always been determined that the person was an extremely devout Catholic. This inevitably leads to the question, How can the process of decay, which has no intelligence, choose which bodies to devour and not to devour, and why do they happen to be devout Catholics? This phenomena is simply miraculous."

This conclusion is based on a poor understanding of the data as it just isn't true.

I'v merged this with the main Incorruptibles thread which has enough information to scotch those claims.

The Rough Guide to Unexplained Phenomena (which everyone should read) has a chapter on this which again completely blows those claims out of the water.