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Incorruptibles

I'm suspicious of this as I'm sure it has come up in Pravda - do we know more?

Monk baffles scientists

24/12/2004 12:26 - (SA)


Moscow - A Siberian Buddhist leader whom followers claim looks and feels just the same as when he died in 1927 is mystifying science.

Seated in the lotus pose in the ceremonial garments of a Buddhist lama, Dasha-Dorjo Itighelov is to undergo examination with modern techniques to find out what keeps him looking so perky.

"This is a phenomenon that science has no name for," said Viktor Zyvagin, a leading expert in forensic medicine.

For the Buddhists of the Buryat republic near Siberia's Lake Baikal, the answer is simple. The lama is not dead, they believe, but in a state of nirvana.

He promised he would re-emerge among the living as soon as Buddhism is reborn in Russia, according to Yanjima Vasilyeva, director of the Itighelov Museum, which was recently set up in Ulan-Ude, the capital of the Buryat republic.

Of course, Vladimir Ilyich Lenin also has managed to achieve a degree of earthly immortality, but only with the help of the best embalming money can buy.

No change in chemical composition

And Zvyagin cited example of bodies recently found in the northern Caucasus that were at first considered to have been dead a few years but later identified as dating back to the 18th century.

However, those remains, like the famous "Iceman" found in the Alps and others discovered in Denmark and China, were mummified in peat, ice or exceptionally dry conditions.

In the case of the Burat lama, there has been no dehydration or any change in chemical composition, according to a preliminary examination that was carried out in 2002.

Russia's current Buddhist chief, lama Ayusheyev, authorised experts to analyse fragments of body tissue, and experts also want to make a scan of the whole body.

Dasha-Dorjo Itighelov, whose name can be translated as "the sun and the diamond of faith", was born in 1852. He enjoyed the respect of Tsar Nicholas II, but was locked up in a monastery in Buryat shortly after the 1917 Communist revolution.

Just before his death, the lama predicted Soviet persecution of Buddhists and asked his followers to exhume his body 30 years after he died.

This was done in 1955 and again in 1973 before the lama was enshrined in a temple in Buryat in 2002, the year he promised to return to his followers.
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https://web.archive.org/web/2005011.../Technology/News/0,,2-13-1443_1639903,00.html
 
stuffed crocodiles off topic

I am compiling a catalog and article on stuffed crocodiles in churches and chapels and the superstitions attched to them and I was wondering if any forum visitors know any cases, I found a few in France, I know of one in the Cezch/ slovak republic, any links are welcome

thanks
 
Re: stuffed crocodiles off topic

mandragoire said:
I am compiling a catalog and article on stuffed crocodiles in churches and chapels and the superstitions attched to them and I was wondering if any forum visitors know any cases, I found a few in France, I know of one in the Cezch/ slovak republic, any links are welcome

thanks
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That sounds really interesting - is this for FT?
I'l keep an eye open but can't remember seeing any, mind I do have a stuffed crocodile sitting a couple of feet away from me now but then this isn't a church so that doesn't count.
Gordon
 
Some few years ago, and shortly after starting my current job, a colleague, aware of my interest for such matters, drew my attention to a an intriguing note written in the margin of the burials register for the parish of Crantock in Cornwall. The entry reads as follows:

Page 77 – No.616 – Jane Mary Searle, of West Pentire (sojourner from Rosewin School, Truro), buried July 6th 1908, age 13
Page 78 – No.617 – Annie Sophia Frost, of West Pentire (sojourner from Rosewin School, Truro), buried July 6th 1908, age 14

And adjacent to the latter is written the following:

“These two children were washed by a great wave from the rocks at West Pentire on June 23rd and drowned together with Sister Emilie, of the Community of the Epiphany in Truro, who was in charge of them and gave her life in the attempt to save them, G.M.P.”

A further note adds:

“The body of Sister Emilie was not recovered until about 14 days later. It was then picked up from the sea at a considerable distance from the shore and some miles from West Pentire, near Trevose Head. The Sister still lay as she had been seen to float out of reach at the time of the accident, face downwards, on the water. Her features were quite placid, unmortified and undisfigured by injury or fish-bite. Her habit was intact and entire, the Community Cross still pendant from her neck. No sign of corruption was noticeable, though the bodies of the two children, found many days before, and buried, had been badly decomposed. I vouch for the truth of this apparently miraculous preservation of the heroic and saintly Sister’s body, as to which I was quite authentically informed at the time. This preservation of the body for more than ten days in the open sea was accounted for (so far as it could, by natural causes be) by the Sister’s having fallen face first into the sea, after striking her head against a rock (as she was seen to do on falling in) and so remained without respiration and floating face downward, until she was so lifted out of the open sea. I bear this testimony, being absolutely convinced of its truth, George Metford Parsons, Vicar.”

Intrigued by this strange twist on the ‘holy incorruptibles’ theme I dug out the archives of The Community of the Epiphany (uncatalogued) and found these entries:

Register of The Community of the Epiphany – Amelia Brice, Sister Emilie, novice 9th January 1889, professed 7th May 1892, entered into rest June 23rd 1908

Sister’s Chapter Book, 1903-1910 – the entry for 7th July 1908 mentions the discovery of the bodies of the two girls but makes no mention of Sister Emilie’s body, the entry for 3rd August 1908 mentions a collection of donations for a memorial to Sister Emilie, the entry for 5th July 1909 mentions the service at the dedication of a memorial to Sister Emilie at Truro Cathedral

I also found a photograph album containing a couple of photos of Sister Emilie and a contemporary newspaper cutting concerning the event.

There was no mention of her incorruptibility anywhere in these records, although as the community was Church of England they may have been reticent to advertise the matter, and I have no records concerning her burial. I checked the later entries in the Crantock register for any record of a burial for Amelia Brice but found nothing. I checked the burial register for the parish of Kenwyn, where The Community of the Epiphany have a communal burial plot, but again I drew a blank. She may well have been interred in her home parish, and would of course have been registered under the name of Amelia Brice, so if anyone out there knows of her current whereabouts, or has any further information about Sister Emilie/Amelia Brice, I would be very grateful to hear about her.
 
That is an interesting story, Vibra.

Normally dead bodies sink, and the action of tidal currents, rocks, etc, tend to strip off all clothing. Crabs and fish do feed off the body. A few days later, gases caused by putrefaction give the corpse sufficient bouyancy to rise to the surface again, when it may be discovered.

(Apologies to anyone just having breakfast!)

The story seems to suggest that the nun never sank because she didn't drown. I'm not sure if this would happen, but if it did, I'm pretty sure the corpse would have been scavenged by gulls from above and fish from below.
The Sister still lay as she had been seen to float out of reach at the time of the accident, face downwards, on the water.
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Out of reach, but apparently not out of sight. I wonder why there was no immediate attempt at recovering Sister Emilie if the body remained afloat. Perhaps the sea was too rough to launch a small boat at the time.

But Pentire Point (if I have the right one) is at the mouth of the River Camel, and fishing craft from Padstow would have been in and out quite frequently, so it is surprising the body was not found for two weeks.

An intrigueing story.
 
That is an interesting story, Vibra.

Normally dead bodies sink, and the action of tidal currents, rocks, etc, tend to strip off all clothing. Crabs and fish do feed off the body. A few days later, gases caused by putrefaction give the corpse sufficient bouyancy to rise to the surface again, when it may be discovered.

(Apologies to anyone just having breakfast!)
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3 AM here! :D Is that why goldfish float?
 
Slightly off thread, but I googled Consilium Cornubiensis, Vibra, and got nine hits - all in Latin! Care to elaborate? 8)
 
RainyOcean said:
You googled what?
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Vibra's location! (Something to do with Cornwall, but my Latin's not up to much! 8) )
 
Hi rynner! The tag's as much to do with where I do my work as where I live, but I do live and work in Cornwall. Cornubiensis is Latin for Cornish, and Consilium, also Latin, has a few variations, some of which could be regarded as being true. I gather from your 'names' thread that you too live in Cornwall. Though I may be mistaken. Anyways, back to those who neglect the urge to rot.
 
Ronson8 said:
Never mind Latin, shouldn't you be using Kernewek?
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Don't get me started! Them as wants to speak Cornish are welcome to do so.

But those who invent and perpetuate 'Cornish' traditions like the Cornish kilt have nothing but my scorn - I am older than the 'Cornish kilt'!
 
You surely cant object to the Cornish flag tartan Ryn, as long as nothing's worn under it. :D
StPiranCornishFlag1618.jpg
 
Ronson8 said:
You surely cant object to the Cornish flag tartan Ryn, as long as nothing's worn under it. :D
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I object to it because it is an artificial construct, and not part of Cornish tradition at all.

I know of no evidence that the Cornish ever wore kilts

or, if they did

that said kilts had a tartan pattern.


I'm willing to be proved wrong. But it seems to me this kilt idea was invented by analogy with the Scottish kilt. But this is flimsy reasoning, because the Welsh, Cornish and Bretons speak (spoke) a different version of the Celtic language to the the Scots and Irish.
 
Ronson8 said:
Never mind Latin, shouldn't you be using Kernewek?
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Hi Ronson8! I use Latin in this particular instance as the phrase has a rhythm and flow which I find pleasing. Many of the documents I am familiar with are in Latin and many of the books I use for reference are titled in this manner. I meet with few documents wholly in Cornish, in fact most of the Cornish is present only in personal and place names, and these I take great delight in. Besides, I am not Cornish, though I live and work here, and originally moved here a number of decades ago. I deal with documents containing Cornish names and words going back many centuries, and these often mutate every few generations, so as to the correct Cornish translation of this or any other phrase, this is a debate I'd rather avoid, and one I feel best left to the Cornish themselves. As to the veracity of the Cornish kilt; I've seen many tens of thousands of Cornish manuscripts and have never seen mention of it. This by no means disproves their ever existing. I love the land and the soul of Cornwall, and I love to rediscover the forgotten voices of both the ordinary and the extraordinary characters who've helped to shape these landscapes, both tangible and intangible. But I, as undoubtedly are many on these islands, am likely to be descended from Jutes, Saxons, Angles, Normans, Romans (and their intercontinental cohorts), Celts and from those who came after the ice melted, as well as a few more thrown in for good measure. We have a whole universe of influences to wear for a while.
 
Thanks. That's too bad though. Would have been fun to be able to say "no my fish isn't dead, it just has gas." :lol:
 
My last goldfish lived seventeen years then inflated like a balloon and died.
 
My last goldfish lived seventeen years then inflated like a balloon and died.
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:( I'm sorry. That's so sad. I had one that I had had for a long time and then it choked on a piece of gravel.


Ok, I'm done talking about goldfish now, happy? :D
 
RainyOcean said:
My last goldfish lived seventeen years then inflated like a balloon and died.
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:( I'm sorry. That's so sad. I had one that I had had for a long time and then it choked on a piece of gravel.
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Thanks, but it's OK, I'm over it now. Fine fish though, I was proud of it for lasting so long.
 
The Incorruptibles

SAINTS PRESERVE US!

When the body of Pope John XXIII was dug up in March 2001, he was in good condition, despite having been dead for 37 years. The present pope decided his predecessor needed a new resting place to accommodate the large numbers of people who wanted to revere his tomb in the crypt of St Peter’s Basilica in Rome. Furthermore, Pope John, son of peasants and known as “the people’s pope”, is on the road to sainthood; one of the preliminary steps in the process is for the potential saint’s body to be exhumed for suitable identification [...]
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forteantimes.com/articles/15 ... rved.shtml
Link is dead. See later post for current access options.

As this is a topic that has recently peeked my interest, I was wondering if anyone else had any further information on this bizarre and fasinating phenomenon.


edited by TheQuixote: reduced quoted material from the FT site itself and tidied url
 
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Incorruptibles - Western Vs. Eastern Churches

Here's the difference between Western and Eastern Christianity, in a nutshell:

WESTERN CHURCH:

Dig, dig, dig.

Open coffin.

"He looks exactly as he did in life! He's a SAINT!"

EASTERN CHURCH:

Dig, dig, dig.

Open coffin.

"He looks exactly as he did in life! He's a VAMPIRE!"
 
Way back in 1978 I saw two incorruptibles on a school trip to France - thr first was the usual one , Bernadette Soubirou , at Lourdes . She looked like a wax dummy in my opinion . A couple of days later we were taken to some church in Paris to see the body of St Vincent de Paul . He was in a glass coffin and looked like he had just died that day , but it was a long time before that that he actually passed away . I still wonder to this day if the teachers got a kick out of dragging us kids all round France to look at corpses.

A few years back I saw the incorruptible arm of 'St John the Baptist' at Topkapi Palace in Istanbul (I sincerely doubt the authenticity however).
 
Bernadette's Face

Gerard, Bernadette's face is indeed a wax mask over her actual features. I've read this in Roman Catholic sources.

I'm not entirely certain about the hands, but I think they're also covered with wax.

Many people believe this is also true of Vladimir Lenin's corpse there in its grey mausoleum on Moscow's Red Square. But the Russian government traditionally always denied this.

But one of the things speaking in favor of a waxen Lenin is that when Lenin's body was first put on public display (in 1924, if memory serves) it quicky fell into decay. Taken away for "re-embalming" it was many months later returned for viewing as "good as new." (Some surely would say "as bad as new.")

And, NO, I am most assuredly NOT trying to compare Bernadette with Lenin. Far from it.
 
Dead Greek Orthodox monk baffles scientists 15 years after burial

Mon Mar 13, 1:03 PM ET

ATHENS (AFP) - Medical experts in the town of Lamia, central Greece, are puzzling over the body of a Greek Orthodox monk that was allegedly found intact 15 years after his burial.

"I believe this to be a sign from God," Bishop Nikolaos of the local prefecture of Fthiotida told a press conference in Lamia. "Even the monk's soft parts are intact," he added accoridng to the semi-state Athens News Agency (ANA).

The story of the deceased monk, Vissarionas Korkoliakos, has raised a media stir following his recent exhumation at Agathonos monastery.

Four local doctors summoned by Church authorities were unable to explain the alleged phenomenon. A fifth expert, an Athens coroner, wrote in his report that he has never seen such a case in his entire career, ANA said.

The church had also requested an opinion from head Athens coroner Philippos Koutsaftis, who declined to examine the body as the monk's death was not crime-related.

Hundreds of faithful are already flocking to the site where the monk's body was disinterred, ANA reported, but the local church is currently advising self-restraint.

"We do not intend to declare (this man) a saint, or to summon people to pray before him," Bishop Nicholaos said.

The monk's body will be placed in isolation in the monastery chapel "to let God speak through the passage of time," the bishop said.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060313/od ... 0313180350
 
That's interesting - I'd always conceptualized the incorruptibility of the body as a possible indication of sainthood as a tradition of the Western Catholic tradition rather than the Eastern.

In fact there's even an old joke about this -

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WESTERN AND EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES:

Western Church:

Dig, dig, dig.

Open coffin lid.

"The body's incorrupt - he's a SAINT!"

Eastern Church:

Dig, dig, dig.

Open coffin lid.

"The body's incorrupt - he's a VAMPIRE!"
 
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