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Is It A Boy Or A Girl?

tamyu said:
If anyone is still interested in this topic...

My son was born with ambiguous genitalia. We had to have a blood test to determine his gender, which put a kink in naming him until we got the results back. He does not have any chromosomal abnormalities - he is genetically male. He was born with a very poorly developed, malformed penis, testicles that were too far up inside to ever descend, and a shallow vaginal like opening. His urethral opening was indented and placed like a female`s. He did not have any internal female organs though - or at least that we detected. He is still quite small and hasn`t had an abdominal MRI or CT done yet so we can`t be entirely sure.
We were told that as the situation stands, he is not producing any male hormones, and may never do so. Puberty may never come for him without hormonal supplements. The doctors believe this was caused due to a severe disruption of development during his very early development. He had other various problems before birth, which led to both a massive stroke, IUGR, and premature birth.

We have also been informed that he has a drastically higher chance of identifying with a female than a "normal" male child does. It may turn out that he feels he is a little girl inside. If that is the case, we plan to accept it with no complaints. We don`t really know what level of hormones he received in the early stages of development - and what the effects were on his developing brain.

Despite a lot of people feeling that it isn`t right to "choose" a gender in these sort of cases, we decided to go with his genetic gender - male - and operate accordingly. As things were, he would never have developed a normal looking penis and his testicles would never have descended. We had reconstructive surgery done on his penis at just over a year - they also brought his testicles down for him.
We believe we made the correct choice - we have given him the chance to grow normal-looking male genitalia, something that would never happen if we had left things as they were. Our rationalization is that you can always get rid of the penis should he feel he is a girl, but I don`t believe he will be angry with us if he feels he is a boy. (The more likely outcome.) It`s easy to take away, but not to bring back what is already gone.
Years ago, though, we would have been doubtlessly pushed to remove the deformed parts and raise him as a girl.

We are doing our best to raise him in a gender neutral environment. His clothing is generally neutral, as are his toys. He has both boy and girl toys. We also do not press any gender "expectations" on him. We will accept him however he ends up, and because of all this I think we will be a lot more attentive than parents who don`t know their child has the possibility of being the "wrong" gender on the outside.
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Great Tamyu, I wish you the best for you and your kid.
 
Tough choices there. There's no right or wrong here, just actions taken with the best of intentions.
 
Tamyu.

I think you are wise beyond your years.

Blessings of health and happiness to you and your family.

love
Baz
 
Hi Tamyu,

Thanks for sharing - must have been really tough. And I think it's probably particularly difficult in Japan to bring your baby up in a gender-neutral way.

Best wishes to you and your family.
 
Odd story. I'd like to know what this gender test actually is and how you can pass it one minute them fail it the next.

beeb

A top Indian woman athlete who won a silver medal at a recent regional championship has failed a gender test, officials say.

Santhi Soundararajan, who took the silver in the women's 800m race at the Asian Games in Doha, is likely to be stripped of her award, reports say.

Soundararajan, 25, was declared the best athlete at an Indian championship in the capital, Delhi, this year.

In 1999, a woman in an Indian state football team failed a gender test.

"Santhi was subjected to a gender test in Doha and we have received the report which says she failed the test," said Manmohan Singh, chairman of the Indian Olympic Association's Medical Commission.

The test is not mandatory, but carried out if officials want it or a rival team protests, reports say.

The test was done soon after Soundararajan came second in the women's 800m race on 9 December.

Reports say the athlete cleared the gender test at the Asian track and field championship in South Korea last year where she won the silver medal in the 800m.

It is not clear how she failed the test at the Asian Games in Doha.

This the second controversy to hit Indian athletes within a month - female shot putter Seema Antil was withdrawn from the Asian Games she failed a pre-competition dope test.
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Chromosome testing? Hormone levels?

I do remember that when Princess Anne was in the Olympics, she was exempted from the test, which is apparently given to all female athletes.
 
Probably so the lizard genes wouldn't be found. ;)

I expect it is chromosome testing as I would think hormone levels would be tested for doping reasons rather than gender reasons.
 
Or possibly it's a written test, with sections on knitting and football.

Or maybe she failed because she farted during the exam and tried to pass it off with a cry of "More tea, vicar?".
 
It is indeed a "chromosome" test, designed to see if the athlete is XX ("female") or XY ("male") - seeing as science has found at least 28 combinations and variations of the supposed "sexing" chromosomes so far and very few of us have had ours tested, trying to decide what "sex" someone is in this way is primitive, to say the least.
 
Mind you, the athlete above may well have taken testosterone to speed up muscle development in the months between the tests. If these tests were endocrinal rather than chromosomal the the athlete would show up as "more masculine" than before.
 
can't find a more appropriate thread for this, but by all means move it if there is one...

Sex-change chemicals in Potomac

An investigation into the cleanliness of rivers feeding Washington's Potomac River has revealed the presence of sex-changing chemicals.

Pollutants which contain the chemicals, known as endocrine disrupters, were found in several tributaries and in the smallmouth bass fish living within.

The US Geological Survey (USGS) study followed the discovery of high numbers of intersex fish in the Potomac basin.

Endocrine disrupters can mimic or block hormones in the body.

Either naturally occurring or man-made, they can interfere with the endocrine system causing birth defects and reproductive irregularities.

The Potomac River is fed by rivers and streams in Maryland, West Virginia and Virginia.

The USGS investigators found pesticides, flame retardants, and personal-care products containing known or suspected endocrine disruptors in all eight sites that were tested.

The chemicals were also found in all of the smallmouth bass examined by the team.

"We analysed samples of 30 smallmouth bass from six sites, including male and female fish without intersex and male fish with intersex," lead scientist Douglas Chambers said.

"All samples contained detectable levels of at least one known endocrine-disrupting compound, including samples from fish without intersex."

Looking for cause

In an effort to pinpoint the source of the pollution the scientists studied wastewater and run-off from several sites.

They discovered that wastewater effluent - both treated and untreated - agricultural and pest control activities and industrial wastewater all contributed to the problem.

Of particular concern was municipal effluent, which contained a cocktail of at least seven compounds containing endocrine disruptors.

"Antibiotics were detected in municipal wastewater, aquaculture, and poultry-processing effluent, with the highest number of antibiotics and the greatest concentrations found in municipal effluent," the USGS wrote in its report.

The discovery that there were high numbers of intersex fish present in the Potomac basin was made by accident in 2003, when scientists began investigating unusually high numbers of fish deaths.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6275841.stm
 
Nepali becomes both man and woman
By Charles Haviland
BBC News, Kathmandu



The authorities in Nepal have granted a man who dresses and behaves as a woman both male and female citizenship.
The unprecedented legal status was given to 40-year-old Chanda Musalman.

Conservative and religious Nepal, like many Asian countries, has a sizeable community of people who are born male but behave as women.

It is unclear how this unique legal status will play out in practice - for instance, how it will affect Chanda's marriage rights.

Constitution

With elections approaching, government teams are currently touring the country issuing certificates of citizenship.

One team came to Chanda's village in western Nepal.

Chanda, who has had no sex-change surgery, asked the officials to erase the words male and female, listed under gender.

They obliged, and ascribed Chanda's gender as "both".

A local campaign group, the Blue Diamond Society, has thanked the government for the move, which it described as a victory for sexual and gender minorities.

In the past the group has accused both the police and the Maoists of harassing transgendered people in the streets of Kathmandu.

It is now lobbying to get the rights of sexual minorities explicitly protected in the new constitution, to be drawn up after the elections.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/w ... 329613.stm

Published: 2007/02/04 15:19:44 GMT

© BBC MMVII
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Full story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/8212078.stm

Semenya dismissive of gender row

New world 800m champion Caster Semenya has shrugged off the gender controversy shrouding her victory at the World Championships in Berlin.

Semenya has been dogged by suspicion about her gender since emerging on the athletics scene three weeks ago.

As a result, she has been asked by the International Association of Athletics Federations to undergo a gender test.

When asked to comment by reporters, the 18-year-old replied: "I don't give a damn about it."

The IAAF first requested the teenager undergo a gender test after she posted a world leading time of 1 minute 56.72 seconds at the African junior championships in Bambous, Maruitius at the end of July.

Due to the speed of her rise from unknown competitor to eventual world champion, a gender test, which takes several weeks to complete, could not be done in time for the world championships.

The official IAAF policy document on gender verification states that one of the steps required for handling such cases is that "the athlete is referred to the investigating authority in confidence for further investigation and advice".

The IAAF announced her undertaking of the test prior to her participation in the women's 800m final in Berlin, a decision that has resulted in criticism of the sport's governing body.

Former Olympic heptathlon gold medallist Denise Lewis described the treatment of Semenya as "absolutely dreadful".

"It's awful she had to compete with this hanging over her head," said Lewis. "It should have been sorted out much, much sooner than this."

Four-time Olympic gold medallist Michael Johnson believes that in the current climate the IAAF had to act on the issue but was critical of the manner in which this was done.

"We have to take it at face value that she's entered in the right race and the gender is what the South Africans claim it is," said the American.

"The consensus is that it is highly unfair and embarrassing to the athlete but at the same time we've had so many athletes who have doped over the last decade in this sport, so we know people will cheat for success.

"I think what the IAAF is doing is the right thing in terms of dealing with the situation, but the way they're dealing with it is all wrong..."
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Fair enough if they have their suspicions, and she does have a very deep voice, but if they're wrong imagine the criticism the IAAF will get. If nothing else, they could have handled this with a lot more tact.
 
I wonder if she'll still be allowed to compete if it turns out she's XXY and didn't know it, so something odd like that?
 
A local cycling club's female races have all been won for the last couple of years here by a male-to-female transsexual. Apparently it's a bit of a scandal. :D
 
escargot1 said:
A local cycling club's female races have all been won for the last couple of years here by a male-to-female transsexual. Apparently it's a bit of a scandal. :D
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Don't the cycling authorities have a test for excess testosterone?

Seriously, although that's a can of worms which I don't want to open, this latest case, involving Kaster Semanya (why do I keep on thinking "Castor & Pollox"?) is a completely different situation. It's a sensitive one at that, and the IAAF's timing, although apparently inadvertent, was terrible. There were crude jibes on national radio this morning on the subject, based on her supposed resemblance to a certain male footballer. Horribly unfair, and until the results of the gender testing are known (and FFS, we shouldn't even have got to hear about this until after such tests were complete), it's really hard to come up with anything useful to say.
 
New twist in Semenya gender saga
By Gordon Farquhar
BBC sports news correspondent

Tests have revealed Caster Semenya's testosterone level to be three times higher than those normally expected in a female sample, BBC Sport understands.

Analysis prior to the World Athletics Championships and the 18-year-old's big improvement prompted calls for a gender test from the sport's governing body.

It was made public only hours before the South African, who has been backed by her nation, won the 800m in Berlin.

A high level of the hormone does not always equate to a failed drugs test.

But the news will only increase speculation surrounding Semenya, who arrived back in South Africa to a rapturous welcome on Tuesday.

Hundreds turned out in Johannesburg to greet the teenager, who has stunned the athletics world with her performances this season.

She ran a time of one minute, 56.72 seconds in Bambous in July to smash her previous personal best by more than seven seconds.

She also broke Zola Budd's long-standing South African record and arrived at the World Championships as the newly crowned African junior champion.

Then in Berlin she left her rivals trailing to win gold in a time of 1:55.45.

Defending champion Janeth Jepkosgei was second, a massive 2.45 seconds adrift, with Britain's Jenny Meadows taking the bronze medal.

Only hours before the race, it leaked out that the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) had demanded Semenya take a gender test amid fears she should not be allowed to run as a woman.

It has since emerged that news of the test only became public knowledge because a fax was sent to the wrong person. :shock:

It has also been revealed that following the findings of initial tests, the South Africans were asked by the IAAF to withdraw her from the team at the World Championships.

Since then, both her family and South African athletics chiefs have leapt to her defence, insisting she is 100% female.

etc...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/8219937.stm
 
Interesting, and sensitive, article in the Times about the "middle sex".

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 922193.ece

It's long so I haven't reproduced it in full, but I was particularly interested to learn that this affects 1 in 4000 babies and that the condition is diagnosed in many more when they hit puberty.

It's cheering that many intersex people go on to have happy and fulfilling lives, even when their sex remains ambiguous throughout their lives.
 
We are always going to have these problems with women athletes, since more testosterone makes them stronger and better performers ... and more manly. Sure, at some point, if someone who was brought up as a woman is manly enough, it is possible to say she’s really not a woman. But in most cases, it’s not. There’s so many different things than can make a person more or less intersexual – not just taking steroids – and nowhere to draw the line. Which is one of the reasons I like women’s sports. Well, it’s the only reason.

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Briton is world's first officially genderless person
A British expat who claims to have no gender is thought to have become the first person to be officially recognised as neither male or female.
By Heidi Blake
Published: 9:15AM GMT 15 Mar 2010

Norrie May-Welby, 48, was born a man but had a sex change operation in 1990, at the age of 28.

After becoming unhappy as a woman, May-Welby decided to become a “neuter”. The 48-year-old is now officially recognised as a person of no specific gender.

May-Welby emigrated to Australia at the age of seven after being born in Paisley, Renfrewshire.

Officials there altered the Briton’s birth certificate to include the new no-gender classification after doctors were apparently unable to determine the sex of the expat’s body.

May-Welby said: “The concepts of man or woman don’t fit me. The simplest solution is not to have any sex identification.”

The UK’s Gender Trust welcomed the case. A spokesman said: “Many people like the idea of being genderless.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... erson.html

Note how the article avoids using a personal pronoun! Unlike some languages, English doesn't have a neutral case!
 
Australian government withdraws non-specified gender status

The Australian government has changed its mind about awarding a gender activist a status of "gender not specified".

Three weeks ago, Scottish-born Norrie mAy-welby achived a world first when zie was granted a Recognised Details Certificate giving hir gender as “not specified” ...

Neither Norrie nor the registrar were prepared for the worldwide interest which followed. On Tuesday, the registrar was back on the phone to Norrie to explain that they had made a mistake and that the certificate they had already issued was legally invalid.

This was confirmed in the NSW parliament yesterday, as NSW attorney-general John Hatzistergos announced that his office had made some inquiries about the certificate after the issue was "ventilated" in the media.

Mr Hatzistergos said: "The registrar may only issue a recognised detail certificate or a new birth certificate following a change of sex in either male or female gender".

Confusion still surrounds this decision, as Green MP Lee Rhiannon told PinkNews.co.uk today that the attorney general’s position is that NSW laws require that a person in this situation must have their sex stated as either male or female.

If this is the case, the registrar’s new certificate, which describes Norrie’s gender as “sex not stated” would also be illegal.

Norrie told AAP yesterday: "When I got the call on Tuesday I was absolutely devastated. I felt like I had been killed.

"My identity has gone all over the world … [now the] attorney-general's taking back what they sold to me."

Legal misunderstanding – or political back-covering? The NSW registrar, Greg Curry claims that Births, Deaths and Marriages were not forced to revoke the certificate.

In a statement issued this week, he said: "At no time did the registrar state or imply that the attorney-general or anyone else had 'pressured' him to cancel the certificate".

There are in fact two key issues at stake here. The first is the right of an individual not to be defined in state or other documentation by a gender they do not identify with. The second, more radical step, is to recognise a third way – a gender that is neither male nor female.

Speaking to PinkNews.co.uk, Norrie was clear that zie was campaigning for the first of these rights. Zie said: “I am not seeking to be recognised as without gender. Rather, I am looking for the state to recognise that who I am cannot be contained within the simple gender labels of either male or female.

"Depending on how one looks at it, biologically or behaviourally, I am either neither gender or a bit of both.”

Essentially, this argument as about what should be entered on legal documents. The NSW government appears to believe that it is not permitted in law to state anything other than male or female.

Lee Rhiannon, a Green MP in the NSW Upper House said: "The NSW government should act to implement a key recommendation of a 2009 Human Rights Commission report that a person over 18 should be able to choose to have an unspecified sex noted on documents and records."

This references a report – The Sex Files – issued last year by the Australian Human Rights Commission, which addressed the legal recognition of sex in documents and government records.

Ms Rhiannon continued: "If there is a problem with the law that stops the Registry of Births, Deaths & Marriages from issuing such a certificate, the compassionate thing is for the NSW government to change the law to support Norrie and others in a similar situation.”

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/03/19/au ... er-status/
 
Norrie told AAP yesterday: "When I got the call on Tuesday I was absolutely devastated. I felt like I had been killed.
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Um, and zie would know what that feels like because? :roll:
 
BlackRiverFalls said:
Norrie told AAP yesterday: "When I got the call on Tuesday I was absolutely devastated. I felt like I had been killed.
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Um, and zie would know what that feels like because? :roll:
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Any drama queen knows what that feels like ;)
 
Now it has happened again!

”Do men play for Guinea’s women team? This matter will be debated for as long as women football is played in Africa” writes this Nigerian football blog.

Two sisters/brothers, Salimata and Bilguisa Simpore, are under fire for dubious or hard-to-classify gender identity.

I remember chatting with some Falcons players at their hotel after that difficult opening game in 2006 and one of them said, during a corner kick, she put her hand “down there” to be sure she was playing against fellow girls and she swore she felt something hard and she immediately raised and alarm to the rest of the team.
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Yeah, I’m sure that’s why you ”put your hand down there”, you not-at-all-Lesbian football woman.
 
Why was it hard? Were they getting aroused by the thought of taking a corner against women?

Or was it some kind of protector, perhaps? (See the ongoing debate about whether women cricketers should wear boxes or not.)
 
bosskR said:
Now it has happened again!

”Do men play for Guinea’s women team? This matter will be debated for as long as women football is played in Africa” writes this Nigerian football blog.

Two sisters/brothers, Salimata and Bilguisa Simpore, are under fire for dubious or hard-to-classify gender identity.

I remember chatting with some Falcons players at their hotel after that difficult opening game in 2006 and one of them said, during a corner kick, she put her hand “down there” to be sure she was playing against fellow girls and she swore she felt something hard and she immediately raised and alarm to the rest of the team.
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Yeah, I’m sure that’s why you ”put your hand down there”, you not-at-all-Lesbian football woman.
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Again? Since when? The link to the blog is from 2010, the incident from 2006.
 
OK, here is my explanation, which I hope shall be to your satisfaction.

I read about them in news the other day because the women’s world cup is about to begin in Germany, and they’ve been taken off the team. This was the first I heard about these players.

For my posting, I googled for a news source in English that I could post (I’m from Sweden). It seems I found an older story.

What has happened ”again”, in any case, is that they’ve been banned from competing, just as other players have been in the past. I admit it was a pretty odd mistake to post a story that did not mention this ...
 
Indian man has hysterectomy after doctors find uterus
An Indian farmer and father of two had a hysterectomy after doctors discovered a "full female reproductive system" in his lower abdomen.
By Dean Nelson, New Delhi
1:31PM BST 01 Aug 2011

The Indian man, identified as Ryalu, was admitted to a hospital near Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh, after complaining of severe stomach pains.

Doctors suspected a normal hernia, but when they carried out an exploratory operation they were shocked to discover it had been caused by a female uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, a cervix and underdeveloped vaginal tissue. :shock:

Dr Pramod Kumar Shrivastava, a surgeon at the Chhindwara district hospital said the patient had external male organs, was fit from working in the fields, and lived a normal life.

"Usually the contents of the Hernia Sac are abdomen organs like large intestines and small intestines but when we operated on the patient we were surprised to find female reproductive organs. We have removed the organs through a hysterectomy and repaired the hernia.
"The sac contained quite developed uterus, both the ovaries, Fallopian tubes, cervix and a tissue which is undeveloped but apparently looks like vaginal tissue," he explained.

The man had not suffered any problems until the stomach pains which led him to hospital. Although he is medically a hermaphrodite, his hormones and sexuality are clearly male, he said.

"The external reproductive organs of the patient were masculine and he has no problems whatsoever with his sexuality. He had functional male genitals and there was no formation of breasts in the patient. It's an embryological accident at the time of embryonic formation," he said.

The patient, who was said to be as "stunned" as his doctors at the discovery, is recovering in hospital and is being supported by his family.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... terus.html
 
New Australian passports allow third gender option

Australians have been given a third choice when describing their gender on passport applications, under new guidelines aimed at removing discrimination.
Transgender people and those of ambiguous sex will be able to list their gender as indeterminate, which will be shown on passports as an X.

People whose gender was different from that of their birth were previously required to have reassignment surgery before they could change their passport to their preferred sex.

An Australian senator, Louise Pratt - whose partner was born female and is now identified as a man - said the reform was a huge step forward.
"There have been very many cases of people being detained at airports by immigration in foreign countries simply because their passports don't reflect what they look like," she told Australian radio.
"It's very distressing, highly inconvenient and frankly sometimes dangerous."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14926598
 
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