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Is It A Boy Or A Girl?

Kellie Maloney: Will the world of boxing welcome promoter?
By Ben Dirs, BBC Sport

When the Puerto Rican boxer Orlando Cruz announced he was gay a couple of years ago, the first person I called for a quote was Frank Maloney.
Who better to comment on boxing's first openly gay fighter than a high-profile manager and promoter who had form for homophobia?
For this is what Maloney said in 2004, when running as UKIP's London mayoral candidate: "I don't want to campaign around gays. I don't think they do a lot for society."

When asked what he thought of Cruz's decision to come out, and whether it might damage his chances of landing a world title shot, the first part of Maloney's answer was what you might construe as cynical.

"I'd love to be the first man to promote a British gay boxer," said Maloney, who led Lennox Lewis to the world heavyweight crown in the 1990s. "He brings a new audience to the table. I would love to see the 'pink pound' coming through the tills."

But it was the second part of Maloney's answer on Cruz that now seems so poignant, given Maloney's recent announcement that he is undergoing gender reassignment and living as a woman called Kellie.
"He's a human being," said Maloney. "And boxing is better than most sports at welcoming minority groups and outsiders." Perhaps, suggested Maloney, a boxing gym wasn't such an unusual place to find a gay man, after all.

Since Maloney's own announcement, the "why is this even news?" brigade have been out in force, incredulous that less enlightened souls should be surprised by such news in 2014.

But people have every right to be shocked.
For Frank Maloney was not a bohemian artist known for his tapestries and ceramic vases, he was a Millwall-supporting "geezer" from Peckham who fought and won ferocious battles at every level of the hardest, most destructive game, from small hall amateur boxing to the glitziest prize fights in Las Vegas.

Machiavellian American promoter Don King, who was frozen out of the heavyweight division by Lewis and Maloney, called the little man in the Union Jack suit a 'mental midget'. It was the highest of backhanded compliments.

It is not every Sunday that you find such a character appearing on the front of a national newspaper wearing a dress. So if some people giggled, that is entirely understandable, because it was all so far-fetched and discombobulating.
And while the majority of the reaction on social media consisted of regurgitated jokes and mickey-taking, there was almost no revulsion or anger. This suggests that although we have a long way to go, we are heading in the right direction.

There was also plenty of support from high-profile boxing figures, including Lewis and another of his old fighters, Julius Francis. Indeed, so effusive has the support been that some - including Maloney - have registered their surprise that such a 'macho world' was capable of such understanding.

But the phrase "the macho world of boxing", which has been used an awful lot in relation to Maloney's announcement, is more than a little bit condescending. It implies that your average boxing gym is crammed full of knuckle-dragging morons incapable of compassion or empathy, which is far from the truth.

Your average boxing gym is a more culturally diverse place than your average golf or tennis club - or pretty much any other club you could mention. The only rule most boxing clubs have is that you respect the rules and respect each other, whether you're black, white or whatever. With the emphasis on "whatever".

Boxing has a long, although not always glorious, tradition of racial integration. Daniel Mendoza became the first Jewish prize-fighter to win an English title in 1792, more than half a century before Jews were allowed to sit in Parliament.

When Jack Johnson, the first black heavyweight world champion, beat "Great White Hope" Jim Jeffries in 1910, race riots and lynchings ensued. But at least he was given the opportunity, winning his crown 39 years before Jackie Robinson became the first black man to play Major League Baseball.

In Britain, as in many other countries, boxing gyms have long been a haven for immigrants, the sons of immigrants and now their daughters.

Of course, transsexualism remains far more shocking to most Britons than the idea of a black man boxing a white man.
But it should be kept in mind that when the very idea of a black man boxing a white man was considered shocking - as well as deplorable, disgusting and ungodly - it happened anyway.

And Maloney knows better than most that boxing opens doors to people desperately seeking a welcoming home: Lewis was born in east London to Jamaican-born parents and won Olympic gold for Canada before claiming the heavyweight world title for Britain - to the dismay of many Americans.

So when Maloney says that she hopes to return to boxing and "guide the next generation of British world champions", it isn't actually that improbable.
Last October, Orlando Cruz lost his world title shot. A month later, he married a man. At some point in the future, Kellie Maloney might manage a world champion again. That's what human beings do.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/28766377
 
The BBC seems to have trouble separating gender identity with sexuality.

Two.

Totally.

Different.

Things.

:roll:
 
This is different from most of the posts here!

Family celebrate first baby girl in over a century
After four generations of only male babies, the Silverton family has finally given birth to a girl
By Camilla Turner, and South West News Service
10:10PM BST 23 Sep 2014

A family is celebrating the birth of its first baby girl in over a century, after four generations of males.
The Silverton family has not had a baby girl since 1913, but the succession of 16 baby boys was finally broken when Jeremy Silverton, 43, and partner Danielle Andrews, 36, gave birth to baby Poppy earlier this month.

The last female born into the family was Poppy’s late great aunt Jessie Silverton, who was born 101 years ago.
Jessie's parents, horse and cart driver Edward Silverton, and his wife Emma had five children between 1910 and 1917.
Between them, Jessie’s older siblings Amy and Edward, and younger brothers Vick and John, went on to have five children, all of whom were male.

...

Mr Silverton said: "It's always a 50:50 chance, you could flip a coin to guess but it just so happens that up until now our family has only had boys.
"However Danielle's mother is the superstitious type and saw signs of it being a girl.
"I just thought it was an old wives tale but because Danielle wanted a girl so badly we decided to go get a scan to find out the gender
.

"We couldn't believe it when we got the news from the scans. As soon as we got home the previously blue nursery was repainted pink and white, there was no time wasted.
"When I first told my mother over the phone it took about five minutes for the penny to drop that she would be having a granddaughter and not another grandson. :D

...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ntury.html
 
rynner2 said:
This is different from most of the posts here!

Family celebrate first baby girl in over a century
After four generations of only male babies, the Silverton family has finally given birth to a girl
By Camilla Turner, and South West News Service
10:10PM BST 23 Sep 2014

A family is celebrating the birth of its first baby girl in over a century, after four generations of males.
The Silverton family has not had a baby girl since 1913, but the succession of 16 baby boys was finally broken when Jeremy Silverton, 43, and partner Danielle Andrews, 36, gave birth to baby Poppy earlier this month.

The last female born into the family was Poppy’s late great aunt Jessie Silverton, who was born 101 years ago.
Jessie's parents, horse and cart driver Edward Silverton, and his wife Emma had five children between 1910 and 1917.
Between them, Jessie’s older siblings Amy and Edward, and younger brothers Vick and John, went on to have five children, all of whom were male.

...

Mr Silverton said: "It's always a 50:50 chance, you could flip a coin to guess but it just so happens that up until now our family has only had boys.
"However Danielle's mother is the superstitious type and saw signs of it being a girl.
"I just thought it was an old wives tale but because Danielle wanted a girl so badly we decided to go get a scan to find out the gender
.

"We couldn't believe it when we got the news from the scans. As soon as we got home the previously blue nursery was repainted pink and white, there was no time wasted.
"When I first told my mother over the phone it took about five minutes for the penny to drop that she would be having a granddaughter and not another grandson. :D

...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ntury.html
So why didn't you place it in a statistics thread then?
 
Monstrosa said:
rynner2 said:
This is different from most of the posts here!

Family celebrate first baby girl in over a century
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ntury.html
So why didn't you place it in a statistics thread then?
Everyone's a flamin' critic! :roll:

Here is quite appropriate, as the thread title is the question most families ask when a new arrival is expected (especially families like the one in the story).
 
As the thread is mainly about intersex and indeterminate gender, diluting it by shoehorning a post about a perfectly normal baby born to a statistically different family just makes it more difficult to keep it on it's correct course.
 
Now you don't just have to worry about which sex your body is - which sex is your brain?

Horizon: Is your Brain Male or Female?
2014-2015, Episode 7
Today on BBC2 from 9:00pm to 10:00pm

Series exploring topical scientific issues. Dr Michael Mosley and Professor Alice Roberts investigate if male and female brains really are wired differently. New research suggests that the connections in men and women's brains follow different patterns, patterns which may explain typical forms of male and female behaviour.

But are these patterns innate, or are they shaped by the world around us? Using a team of human lab rats and a troop of Barbary monkeys, Michael and Alice test the science and challenge old stereotypes. They ask whether this new scientific research will benefit both men and women, or whether it could drive the sexes even further apart.
 
From the World Wide Words newsletter:

Mx

Mx was created on the model of the other personal titles Mr, Mrs and Ms for a person who doesn’t identify themselves as either male or female or doesn’t want their gender to be known.

An article in the Guardian on 17 November — prompted by the news that the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) was considering introducing it — noted the quiet rise in the use of Mx as a gender-neutral title, particularly in the UK. Mx is accepted as a valid title by a number of organisations, mostly in the public sector. The Post Office was first in 2009; it has since been joined by several governmental bodies, including the National Health Service, HM Revenue and Customs and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. But other than those, acceptance is patchy and uncommon; the proposal by RBS marks a potential shift into the private sector, though RBS is 80% owned by the government.

Research by Nat Titman shows that Mx was created in online discussion groups in the early 1980s as a way to avoid identifying oneself as male or female or avoid specifying one’s marital status. It’s hard to say how often it was employed in real life in the following two decades but its sporadic appearances online argue for its being very rare. Around 2000 Mx began to be discussed by transgender and androgynous people, who have since led efforts to gain recognition for it.

This is the earliest example I can find in a British newspaper:

"Official forms in Brighton and Hove will include the title “Mx” to cater for the city’s transgender community after a review of services. Brighton and Hove Council’s trans-equality scrutiny panel recommended removing the need for people to identify themselves as male or female at GP surgeries and introducing gender-neutral lavatories and changing rooms.

The Times, 4 May 2013."

It’s said as mix or mux, sometimes mixter.
 
Accusations of Transphobia are sometimes made lightly.

Are you now or have you ever been a TERF?

The term TERF - "trans exclusionary radical feminist" has become internet shorthand for "transphobic bigot". The odd thing is that most people hold beliefs which could see them labelled a "TERF".

At the weekend a letter was published in the Observer, signed by 130 people, which called for open debate in universities and criticised the silencing or ‘no platforming’ of people whose views are deemed transphobic or whorephobic. Two high-profile signatories, Mary Beard and Peter Tatchell, were immediately deluged with abuse and threats. Both ended up making statements (Beard on her blog, and Tatchell to Pink News) in which they reiterated their support for the principle of free speech, but took pains to distance themselves from the TERFs (‘trans-exclusionary radical feminists’) who are the main targets of the tactics the letter criticised. ‘Don’t confuse me with those people’, was the message. ‘I defend their right to express their views, but I find those views as repulsive as you do’. ...

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/are-you-now-or-have-you-ever-been-terf
 
After being told by users that its 58 existing gender options are not inclusive enough, the social network has relented and given its US-based members a chance to fill in their own gender as they wish.

“Now, if you do not identify with the pre-populated list of gender identities, you are able to add your own. As before, you can add up to 10 gender terms and also have the ability to control the audience with whom you would like to share your custom gender. We recognize that some people face challenges sharing their true gender identity with others, and this setting gives people the ability to express themselves in an authentic way,” Facebook’s Diversity team said in a statement.

“We're hoping this will open up the dialogue,” said Ari Chivukula, a transgender member of the team. ...

http://rt.com/usa/236283-facebook-gender-custom-choice/
 
UK should 'degender' passports, says Maria Miller

Passports and driving licences should not state if the holder is male or female because it causes "problems" for transgender people, a Tory MP has said.
Maria Miller, chair of the Commons Women and Equalities committee, said a person's sex was "not relevant" on official documents, and it created an "unconscious bias" in job applications.
Gender details on passports also do not assist with identification, she added.

The committee will publish a report on transgender discrimination next week.
In an interview with the Times newspaper, Ms Miller said gender stereotyping can be as "damaging" for men as women.
"For individuals who have decided to transition but haven't necessarily got the right documentation, it can cause problems," she said.
"Why do we need gender on our driving licence? Why do we have to have it on our passport if it doesn't really aid identification? It's not relevant.
"Australia has decided to degender their passports."

Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said his party had pushed for the change during the coalition government's term in office.
"This is not as radical an idea as it might seem - other countries like Australia have already introduced it and it is accepted by the International Civil Aviation Organisation.
"It is frankly ridiculous that even on something this small the Tories have refused to act over the last few years."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35214487

I just hope I die soon, because this sort of nonsense does my head in!
Most people are either male or female, and that's an important part of "identification" for most people.
Should we have to re-invent the whole system, just to satisfy a very small minority of the population?

It seems we are bending over backwards to 'include' these minorities in some ever more complex classification system, when it would be simpler to leave them as 'special cases'.

So shoot me if you disagree - I've lived long enough already!
 
Hmmm. It does rather seem to be taking things to the extreme.
The question is, if they do this, would that create problems for standard-issue males and females?
 
UK should 'degender' passports, says Maria Miller

Passports and driving licences should not state if the holder is male or female because it causes "problems" for transgender people, a Tory MP has said.
Maria Miller, chair of the Commons Women and Equalities committee, said a person's sex was "not relevant" on official documents, and it created an "unconscious bias" in job applications.

She has a point. This topic is covered quite well in Chapter 5 of 'Delusions of Gender' and a paper (Norton, Vandello and Darley) details how that gender neutral CV's ascribed to a male applicant were significantly better 'liked' and were more likely to get interviewed than exactly the same CV's ascribed to a woman.

More interesting is that self reported 'objectivity' with respect to gender was a bigger predictor of a gender bias, than self reported gender bias.

Gender details on passports also do not assist with identification, she added.!

Is she confusing 'identification' and 'self-identification' perhaps?
 
She has a point. This topic is covered quite well in Chapter 5 of 'Delusions of Gender' and a paper (Norton, Vandello and Darley) details how that gender neutral CV's ascribed to a male applicant were significantly better 'liked' and were more likely to get interviewed than exactly the same CV's ascribed to a woman.

More interesting is that self reported 'objectivity' with respect to gender was a bigger predictor of a gender bias, than self reported gender bias.



Is she confusing 'identification' and 'self-identification' perhaps?

But at interview the panel might be able to guess the gender of the applicant based on clothes worn and/or appearance.
 
a paper... details how that gender neutral CV's ascribed to a male applicant were significantly better 'liked' and were more likely to get interviewed than exactly the same CV's ascribed to a woman.

When I update my CV, in that case, I'll make sure that it looks like I'm a man.
 
Well, if you put down 'went to XYZ Boys' School' on your CV, that'd give the game away.
 
But at interview the panel might be able to guess the gender of the applicant based on clothes worn and/or appearance.
True, but getting to interview is over half the battle. Once there, the balance of power shifts somewhat - one must now be very careful of selection after interview. Companies have been sued and lost because they cannot show that they select their candidate fairly, based on suitability for the role. Obviously the failed candidate brings the case. (I don't say I agree with this, only that it happens and can happen).

[It's why my job interviews for electronics used a standard technical template and I kept a copy after the interview. I could always then justify the decision on ability grounds in the candidate's own handwriting.]

The point though is that there is still significant gender bias being used in selection of staff. Sometimes when the selectors are not aware they are doing it. So if I was female (still not, just checked), it would be a good idea to remove and gender clues from my CV if I could.
 
So if I was female (still not, just checked), it would be a good idea to remove and gender clues from my CV if I could.

Maybe so, but is this any justification for genderless passports? Generally speaking, job applications don't ask for your passport.
 
When would knowing someone's gender (via passport) be relevant?
 
Maybe so, but is this any justification for genderless passports? Generally speaking, job applications don't ask for your passport.
Not for the application as such, but they do ask for the passport if they offer you the job.
It's so they can confirm you are you, etc.
 
It's as relevant as the other identifying marks mentioned on the passport, height, eye colour etc.
 
My eye colour is between me, myself and I!
 
Maybe so, but is this any justification for genderless passports? Generally speaking, job applications don't ask for your passport.
I agree - I thought I'd made that clear. Passports are for something else entirely, actual identification at (say) borders, so gender should stay on them imo. Once the whole world uses (say) biometrics, fingerprints and iris scan for example,t the perhaps it won't matter so much. You can then 'self-identify' whatever 'gender' you like on your passport (or not) and no-one will care.

Companies now have to check prospective employees' legality to work in the UK, so a passport is going to be part of the easiest way to do that - they don't of course, but a few mandatory three year jail sentences to those that don't would sort that out - and give legalised slavery a well-needed kick in the teeth as well.

At the last treadmill, this was done quite rigorously, so the problem for immigrants (of any nationality) was the validity of their past work and academic life plus a passport - if it couldn't be verified, then the offer could be withdrawn. As 19/20 applicants for a two electronic posts I recruited over a two year period for were from mainland Europe, this was a lot of work (and more than once, we struggled and had to withdraw an offer).
 
My eye colour is between me, myself and I!
I! What about eye! I have heterochromia, it's between me, myself and eye. Say it now and say it loud. I'm proudly out--one eye's blue and one's hazely dark green. (It's actually kind of fun, but trying when asked to say your eye color on I.D. things.)
 
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