Is Roswell Finally Dead?

SkepticalX

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#1
Wow - it would seem that Kevin Randle (who has written several books on the subject) is seemingly ready to give up on Roswell:

https://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-decline-of-roswell.html

Personally, I think this is long overdue. Roswell was a non-event until Berlitz and Moore resurrected it in the late 1970s. The evidence was never very compelling and has only become less so in the 40 years since.
 

dr wu

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#2
I always was on the fence about Roswell but for me what stood out was the fact that Marcel claimed that the debris he saw was not from us...that it looked alien. One would think that an officer at his level even if he didn't have top secret clearance on those special balloons would have been able to distinguish human balloon debris from alien ship parts.
That has always been a bit strange , at least to me.
 

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#3
I agree about it being overdue ...

In the mid-1990's I did a lot of reading / re-reading leading up to the 50th anniversary of the event. By the time I had gone through the past and then-current literature (some for the 2nd or 3rd time during my lifetime) I concluded:

- The bulk of the Roswell mystique, and the mythos supporting it, accrued long after the fact.

- Some alleged aspects of the Roswell event actually traced back to other incidents (e.g., Corona / Aztec) and were getting blended into the Roswell mix as early as the 1950's.

- The storyline on how the Roswell mythos expanded and mutated over the decades was as, if not more, interesting as the Roswell story itself.

Long story short ...

I ended up accepting the Project Mogul (super-secret barometric sensor balloon array) explanation, based on not only the revelations surfacing at the time but also certain documentation and conversations with second-generation* informants above and beyond what was reported in the daily and UFO press of the time.

* By 'second-generation', I mean discussions with colleagues at a key site mentioned in the mythos who'd received their info from folks who'd been on-site (and positioned to need to know) in 1947.

Much of the authorities' confusing statements and behavior Randle cites is (IMHO) entirely understandable in light of:

- The security / classification level at which Project Mogul had operated;

- The fact the USAF had no substantial involvement save for providing a launch facility for the balloon arrays, because ...

- It was a CIA, rather than DOD, project - a fact to which more folks should pay attention.

IMHO the main thing getting covered up in 1947 was the left hand / right hand disconnects between the military and intelligence organizations involved, and the embarrassing situation in which the military ones had been left by virtue of having been the ones who'd publicly spoken first, without really knowing what they were showing.
 

SkepticalX

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#4
Doc - I agree that Marcel Sr. is probably the most credible element of the story. However, the items he describes hardly seem to be the stuff of which interstellar craft are built. It is possible that, in the excitement of the moment, he simply drew the wrong conclusions about unusual, but ultimately prosaic objects.
 

dr wu

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#5
Doc - I agree that Marcel Sr. is probably the most credible element of the story. However, the items he describes hardly seem to be the stuff of which interstellar craft are built. It is possible that, in the excitement of the moment, he simply drew the wrong conclusions about unusual, but ultimately prosaic objects.
It's certainly possible he didn't understand what he was looking at. But he did describe the stuff as being very strong and unbendable or something like that...? But I tend to agree that if a ufo crashed the debris would be far different than a few lightweight pieces of material.
 

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#6
Doc - I agree that Marcel Sr. is probably the most credible element of the story. However, the items he describes hardly seem to be the stuff of which interstellar craft are built. It is possible that, in the excitement of the moment, he simply drew the wrong conclusions about unusual, but ultimately prosaic objects.
I agree about Marcel being a credible guy blind-sided by unexpected circumstances. Even under speculative interpretations involving dark cover-ups in progress, I never saw him as someone involved in any such shenanigans.

You're spot-on about novel terrestrial materials being unrecognizable on first encounter. For example ... If you accept the Project Mogul explanation, one of the mysteriously lightweight and bend-shedding materials Marcel examined was an early example of the categories of materials we know best today as (e.g.) Mylar or a metallized polyethylene. Such polymer films emerged during the WW2 era, but were mainly used for internal packing and shielding within electronic equipment.

The use of plastic, rather than rubber, for high altitude balloons was an innovation for which Project Mogul is credited.

Ordinary folks wouldn't have any, or much, opportunity to have seen such materials in 1947. For example, DuPont's commercial product Mylar didn't hit the public scene until the early 1950's.

The metallic appearance was caused by it being metallized (very thinly coated with a metal compound) - a necessary gloss to make the balloon array trackable via radar.
 

Analis

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#7
In 2018, Roswell does appear in a bad shape, but let's face it, 1) the perspective of having a saucer from outer space retrieved in New Mexico in July 1947 and stored in Area 51 never really had a high probability, and 2) even if this had been the case, the prospects of having it disclosed as a result of a campaign to petition the authorities to «reveal the truth» were even lower.

However, I agree with Randle that, if a crash of a spacecraft appears now remote*, the mystery of what happened remains complete. The problem is less why Marcel came with such a strange and seemingly nonsensical story. Personally, I believe that he was not legit, and I suspect that he was involved in a manipulation. Afeter all, as a man with a military intelligence background, he knew where his loyalties lied. But if Roswell were used as a decoy to send ufologists on a wild goose chase, why the Roswell AAF base issued the announcement remains as obscure as before.

I ended up accepting the Project Mogul (super-secret barometric sensor balloon array) explanation, based on not only the revelations surfacing at the time but also certain documentation and conversations with second-generation* informants above and beyond what was reported in the daily and UFO press of the time.

* By 'second-generation', I mean discussions with colleagues at a key site mentioned in the mythos who'd received their info from folks who'd been on-site (and positioned to need to know) in 1947.

Much of the authorities' confusing statements and behavior Randle cites is (IMHO) entirely understandable in light of:

- The security / classification level at which Project Mogul had operated;

- The fact the USAF had no substantial involvement save for providing a launch facility for the balloon arrays, because ...

- It was a CIA, rather than DOD, project - a fact to which more folks should pay attention.

IMHO the main thing getting covered up in 1947 was the left hand / right hand disconnects between the military and intelligence organizations involved, and the embarrassing situation in which the military ones had been left by virtue of having been the ones who'd publicly spoken first, without really knowing what they were showing.
If there would be only one Roswell theory that is completely discredited, it is the Mogul one. Its involvment in the Roswell controversy made that despite its minor importance, the Mogul project has been studied from every angle. Not only the theory does not account for many anomalies in the reaction of the military, but no evidence for a Mogul flight remains, while there is an impressive amount of counter-evidence against it.
Nor the material nor the balloons themselves were classified, and it seems that not even the namewas. There was no attempt to impose any secrecy on the recoveries of the wrecked flights. In fact, from early July, tags with a return adress had been attached to the material... However, balloons and the material themselves were not deemed as important enough to be systemativally looked for, even if the Mogul staff tried to track some of the flights by radar. We know that the Air Force staff, including at Roswell, was informed of the existence of the balloons, as Charles Moore had met them, and notably Jesse Marcel, to ask for their help to retrieve the wreckage – which, incidentally, makes not plausible that the Roswell staff was surprised by the remains they found near the Brazel ranch. The cavalier way with which the recovery of the wrecks was handled, with no hint of an attempt at cover-up, corroborates that there was no secrecy attached to the material. What we had was ordinary weather balloons, that Marcel would have recognized as such (and even if he may have wondered at a new model, 30 years later, he would have already understood ages ago what had been going on).
There is also a complete lack of description of any component of a Mogul flight, from military or civilian witnesses. And last but not least, the files from the project Mogul show that no Mogul flight was retrieved from the surroundings of Corona at the time of the incident. The convoluted attempts by Charles Moore to rewrite the official contemporary reports could not change anything to the observation.

The crash of a top secret aircraft or balloon, or a failed expermiment, may account for all or some of the incident. But we must look elsewhere.



* Nonetheless, I would not include the McCoy letter as a definitive evidence. McCoy may have been involved in the study of foo fighters, but despite that we know that there were studies of anomalous aerial phenomenas in the immediate after-war, we still don't know precisely which kind of projects were involved, with which level of security. He may have been left out of the loop.
 

SkepticalX

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#8
We may still not know exactly what happened at Roswell in July of 1947 but, if the consensus is that nothing truly anomalous occurred, I'm more than happy to move on. The ongoing Roswell sideshow has consumed a lot of time and effort that might have been applied to other cases. The unfortunate thing is that the truly compelling cases are now all decades old.
 

dr wu

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#9
We may still not know exactly what happened at Roswell in July of 1947 but, if the consensus is that nothing truly anomalous occurred, I'm more than happy to move on. The ongoing Roswell sideshow has consumed a lot of time and effort that might have been applied to other cases. The unfortunate thing is that the truly compelling cases are now all decades old.
What are some cases that you think are 'truly compelling'...? It might be interesting to explore those a bit.
 

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#10
A personal favorite of mine is the 1957 Levelland, Texas incident. It had multiple credible witnesses who reported actual objects on the ground and EM effects... but not sure what you can do with the case 61 years after the fact. I still like Socorro too, even after recent, inane attempts to debunk it as a college prank.

One that hasn't been talked to death that I think is interesting is the Roaring River, Missouri case from 1966. Multiple witnesses, physical effects, and photos.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/roaringriver.html

This was one that Ted Phillips investigated back in the day. He probably still has a box full of evidence in his basement that he collected at the site.
 

dr wu

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#11
Those are all interesting cases......Socorro seems the most interesting to me because of Zamora's testimony as a police officer watching the event unfold as the two 'pilots' apparently 'worked' on the craft in the gully. But what's up with the flame rocket type power when it took off? Are space aliens that primitive? Does that make sense?
The other two are also well documented with pics and plenty of witnesses. The Roaring River case is odd in the sense that ..why would an alien ship simply blast their tent area? For the fun of it? High strangeness indeed.
And the Levelland case is similar in that it's almost as if these 'craft' wish to be seen and make an appearance. Why not remain somewhat in the background and do their exploring or whatever away from human eyes?
What's their intent? Are they putting on a show for us..?
 

oldrover

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#13
Socorro is also one of my favourite cases. It fired up my interest as a kid.
Another case is the alien and craft in the French lavender field. Can't remember the name, etc.
Wasn't that the one shaped like a Tic-Tac?
 

dr wu

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#15
The Valensole case..
http://www.ufoevidence.org/Cases/CaseSubarticle.asp?ID=147

Summary: This case, which Jacques Vallee described as, "the best-authenticated close encounter incident in continental Europe", includes not only hard traces, botanical data and physiological data, but detailed descriptions of beings associated with the UFO. It came to be known as ‘The Valensole Case’. Not only is it one of the most thoroughly investigated close encounters on record, but examination by French government agencies began on the day of the event.

There's another ufo event in the 60's I believe that Vallee recounts in one of his books where an alien lands in a field and when approached by the farmer (Belgian?) ask the farmer what time it is. When told the time he says you are wrong..gets back in the ufo and leaves.
One of my favorite bizarre cases. I can't recall the exact name of that one.
 
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#17

dr wu

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#18
To me the calcium content is not important at all....the other evidence is overwhelming that an event occurred.
The burnt area, the witness testimony, and his medical related issues are more than enough to conclude that something weird happened.
 

dr wu

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#19
The Joe Simonton case (Minnesota USA) is also a very strange one.
A saucer hovers near a farmers house.....and 3 strange swarthy/asian looking aliens poke their heads out and offer him little pancakes....and he gives them water in a pitcher they provided. Who makes up a story like that...?
 

INT21

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#20
...Who makes up a story like that...?...

Joe Simonton ?

Stevenville is my current most interesting report.

INT21
 

SkepticalX

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#21
For whatever reason, I don't find Stevensville compelling at all. In the 21st century, you don't have football-field size UFOs without a single credible photo.

Doc, as for high strangeness, I still like the 1965 Jerry Townsend case in which he says he encountered a landed rocketship with little robots the size of beer cans. Again, why would people make up such a bizarre story?
 

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#22
Some p
For whatever reason, I don't find Stevensville compelling at all. In the 21st century, you don't have football-field size UFOs without a single credible photo.

Doc, as for high strangeness, I still like the 1965 Jerry Townsend case in which he says he encountered a landed rocketship with little robots the size of beer cans. Again, why would people make up such a bizarre story?
Some people seem to believe almost anything, nothing surprises me here. They will also do or say anything to get attention.
 

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#23
For whatever reason, I don't find Stevensville compelling at all. In the 21st century, you don't have football-field size UFOs without a single credible photo.

Doc, as for high strangeness, I still like the 1965 Jerry Townsend case in which he says he encountered a landed rocketship with little robots the size of beer cans. Again, why would people make up such a bizarre story?
That reminds me of a Scottish case. A forestry worker saw a UFO and was attacked by 2 strange, foul smelling robots. He actually sustained injuries. Can't remember the name of that one - but it's fairly convincing.
 

eburacum

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#26
These smelly robots and beer-can robots remind me of Terence McKenna's experiences with DMT, a psychoactive drug. We've got a thread about it somewhere. The apparent fact that a particular drug can liberate very specific, robot-like hallucinations suggests to me that there is a capacity inside the human mind that is preprogrammed with machine-like imagery, maybe a kind of fractal phenomenon. Maybe this sort of hallucination can be induced in an undrugged mind (assuming these witnesses were indeed, drug-free).
 

EnolaGaia

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#27

dr wu

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#28
For whatever reason, I don't find Stevensville compelling at all. In the 21st century, you don't have football-field size UFOs without a single credible photo.

Doc, as for high strangeness, I still like the 1965 Jerry Townsend case in which he says he encountered a landed rocketship with little robots the size of beer cans. Again, why would people make up such a bizarre story?
I'll have to look that one up and reread it......yes, who makes up a tale like that?
Of course the doubting Thomas' will say ...anyone who wants attention.
;)

I also recall a case where a hunter/camper hid up a tree in the woods to avoid some weird 'aliens' who then tried to bring him down by blowing gas at him while he sat in the tree.
He described the 'alien' more like a robot machine than an actual being.
And there was the Stephen Michaelik case ....a fair amount of physical evidence as well as eyewitness testimony.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/falcon-lake-incident-book-anniversary-1.4121639
 
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dr wu

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INT21

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#30
SkepticalX,

...For whatever reason, I don't find Stevensville compelling at all. In the 21st century, you don't have football-field size UFOs without a single credible photo...

But people do believe Kenneth Arnold who reported seeing some objects from a distance of around 80 mile . And there was no picture of those either. Yet it was the case that more or less started the ufo movement.

I tend to agree that the size of the object reported at Stephensville aught to have drawn more attention. However there is quite a lot to this case.
At least as much as the Phoenix lights.

INT21
 
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