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The Roswell Incident [1947]

The only two people you listed who were involved with the Roswell incident were Marcel and Brazel. Neither of them claimed to have seen any UFO in the summer of 1947. The only thing either of them ever saw that summer was the debris.
I didn't mean Roswell specifically; I was making a generalization of those who have had some very strange experiences.
And there are still people in Roswell NM who believe they know what happened.
But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
The point is, the 'vehicle' that I witnessed (with 3 other people) jumped around the sky, hovered noiselessly, no smoke, no obvious propulsion, then took off to the other side of the planet at a phenomonal speed. Now if we had technology anywhere near that, I'm sure we would have a completely different method of air travel.
Guess you had to be there to see what I mean. I recall watching an airplane travelling noisily and smokily through the air the next day, and I thought 'good grief, what an antique'! LOL!
Well I've got a good imagination, and i can imagine such a sight having a lasting impact on you. Have you posted a full account on this message board anywhere?
 
Well I've got a good imagination, and i can imagine such a sight having a lasting impact on you. Have you posted a full account on this message board anywhere?
Oh I did somewhere here, back in 1997 I was with 3 other women on the NJ border of Pennsylvania, flat farm country. It was 9:10 pm, dark out, clear starry night, and we were having a cigarette outside of a barn. I never would have noticed anything because I am not a sky watcher, but one of the women was very religious and had a habit of stargazing as she was praying. Her exclamations of 'What the heck is that??' made us all look up, there was a huge round object hovering above us, I guessed it to be 30 - 40 feet in diameter, rotating clockwise, with round flashing lights underneath it, in three colors one of which was yellow. No noise, no smoke. This thing took off to the middle of the sky, still rotating and hovering. Then it started to 'jump' across the sky, back and forth, and we started talking about what it could be, when one of the women shrieked, 'It's on top of us again!', whereby someone else said it was going to land, and we all ran for the house. I was the only one who looked back, and it took off so quickly that it only left a light trail behind it. I certainly would not want to see what was operating this thing, all I kept thinking was that it was like watching a science fiction movie. These things aren't running on gasoline or anything like that, they must be using some type of anti-gravity devices or something along those lines from what I saw.
I never tell anyone about it because you're either viewed as 'odd' or imagining things, or having vision problems, but we all compared notes and saw the same thing.
The thing that I feel is odd is believing we could be all alone in this vast universe.
I'm no scientist, but could these things be moving through dimensions?
 
Well Ronnie Jersey,

I always said no one understands unless they were forced to walk in your shoes.

I don’t believe, like some people, this has anything to do with religion such as demons.

I don’t believe the UFO phenomenon has anything to do with outer space and other parts of the universe.

I feel like the only thing that “ checks the boxes “ is overlapping realities.
 
Who knows, maybe it really is some type of experimental aircraft that one of our countries is working on, funny though that there are photos of odd things in our skies going way back into the early 1900's.
Just something I wonder about.
 
Oh I did somewhere here, back in 1997 I was with 3 other women on the NJ border of Pennsylvania, flat farm country. It was 9:10 pm, dark out, clear starry night, and we were having a cigarette outside of a barn. I never would have noticed anything because I am not a sky watcher, but one of the women was very religious and had a habit of stargazing as she was praying. Her exclamations of 'What the heck is that??' made us all look up, there was a huge round object hovering above us, I guessed it to be 30 - 40 feet in diameter, rotating clockwise, with round flashing lights underneath it, in three colors one of which was yellow. No noise, no smoke. This thing took off to the middle of the sky, still rotating and hovering. Then it started to 'jump' across the sky, back and forth, and we started talking about what it could be, when one of the women shrieked, 'It's on top of us again!', whereby someone else said it was going to land, and we all ran for the house. I was the only one who looked back, and it took off so quickly that it only left a light trail behind it. I certainly would not want to see what was operating this thing, all I kept thinking was that it was like watching a science fiction movie. These things aren't running on gasoline or anything like that, they must be using some type of anti-gravity devices or something along those lines from what I saw.
I never tell anyone about it because you're either viewed as 'odd' or imagining things, or having vision problems, but we all compared notes and saw the same thing.
The thing that I feel is odd is believing we could be all alone in this vast universe.
I'm no scientist, but could these things be moving through dimensions?
Interesting. The only UFO experience I've had was in Pennsylvania. But that was a row of lights that seemed to stay in the same part of the sky for three quarters of an hour, then slowly moved away into the distance. I suppose it could have been anything.

I've said elsewhere on this forum, I don't really believe in UFOs in general, but if they are extraterrestrial craft I think they're more likely to come from parallel versions of Earth than distant planets, for a variety of reasons. Which still makes them extraterrestrial from our point of view. Also, it's something we should be far more concerned about.
 
Interesting. The only UFO experience I've had was in Pennsylvania. But that was a row of lights that seemed to stay in the same part of the sky for three quarters of an hour, then slowly moved away into the distance. I suppose it could have been anything.

I've said elsewhere on this forum, I don't really believe in UFOs in general, but if they are extraterrestrial craft I think they're more likely to come from parallel versions of Earth than distant planets, for a variety of reasons. Which still makes them extraterrestrial from our point of view. Also, it's something we should be far more concerned about.
And I've wondered also if these things are perhaps Time Machines, coming back from the future to take a look at us. After all, if time machines are ever invented in our future, they can come back to any time in the past, I would imagine. Einstein himself believed that time travel is possible.
Anyway, just my opinion that they are someone's technology.
 
And I've wondered also if these things are perhaps Time Machines, coming back from the future to take a look at us. After all, if time machines are ever invented in our future, they can come back to any time in the past, I would imagine. Einstein himself believed that time travel is possible.
Anyway, just my opinion that they are someone's technology.
My grandfather seemed to believe that UFOs were future-originating time machines. I suppose, in my way of viewing things, a future and a past are parallel versions of Earth, and these machines wouldn't need to come from our future, and could come from the past of another Earth.
 
My grandfather seemed to believe that UFOs were future-originating time machines. I suppose, in my way of viewing things, a future and a past are parallel versions of Earth, and these machines wouldn't need to come from our future, and could come from the past of another Earth.
Every time I start thinking of UFOs and whatever they may be, I just find myself falling into a huge hole of wondering why any technology sufficient to moving either between planets, times or realities, wouldn't also be sufficient to developing a cloaking device of some kind. Unless they wanted to be seen. But if they wanted to be seen, why all the subterfuge?
 
Every time I start thinking of UFOs and whatever they may be, I just find myself falling into a huge hole of wondering why any technology sufficient to moving either between planets, times or realities, wouldn't also be sufficient to developing a cloaking device of some kind. Unless they wanted to be seen. But if they wanted to be seen, why all the subterfuge?
It all depends. Do you ever give any thought or worry if ants see you going about your business?
 
It all depends. Do you ever give any thought or worry if ants see you going about your business?
LOL - and it's not as if any vehicles we have currently can come anywhere near the speed of these ufo's, let alone do anything about them.
And who knows if there are NOT many cloaked devices using our air space, we would have no idea!
 
It all depends. Do you ever give any thought or worry if ants see you going about your business?
Oddly enough, I DO! But then I know I am real, and occupying the same world surface as those ants, and, presumably from the way they jump all over my picnics, the ants know the same thing.
 
Every time I start thinking of UFOs and whatever they may be, I just find myself falling into a huge hole of wondering why any technology sufficient to moving either between planets, times or realities, wouldn't also be sufficient to developing a cloaking device of some kind. Unless they wanted to be seen. But if they wanted to be seen, why all the subterfuge?
Perfectly summed up by this 1979 UK CE3 witnessed by a mother and six children and investigated by Phillip Mantle:

http://www.openminds.tv/ufo-landing...ted-in-normanton-west-yorkshire-england/38876

Three very tall humanoids land their stealthy, silent craft and step outside in their silver spacesuits to examine the landing area with torch-like devices. Only they have landed close to a housing estate and have to beat a hasty retreat when one of them notices they are being observed by a family of seven.

The witnesses sought no publicity and were convinced it wasn’t a helicopter as it was silent on arrival and departure So you are just left scratching your head as to what intergalacti/inter dimensional creatures were hoping to achieve…? This case is by no means the only one to feature such actions.

One possible answer is the Distortion Theory: an intelligent “other” disguising its true intentions by overlaying a scene in which some form of hologram depicts UFO occupants busying themselves with mundane and unnecessary tasks whilst the real phenomenon takes place.
 
Perfectly summed up by this 1979 UK CE3 witnessed by a mother and six children and investigated by Phillip Mantle:

http://www.openminds.tv/ufo-landing...ted-in-normanton-west-yorkshire-england/38876

Three very tall humanoids land their stealthy, silent craft and step outside in their silver spacesuits to examine the landing area with torch-like devices. Only they have landed close to a housing estate and have to beat a hasty retreat when one of them notices they are being observed by a family of seven.

The witnesses sought no publicity and were convinced it wasn’t a helicopter as it was silent on arrival and departure So you are just left scratching your head as to what intergalacti/inter dimensional creatures were hoping to achieve…? This case is by no means the only one to feature such actions.

One possible answer is the Distortion Theory: an intelligent “other” disguising its true intentions by overlaying a scene in which some form of hologram depicts UFO occupants busying themselves with mundane and unnecessary tasks whilst the real phenomenon takes place.

I suppose it all comes down to which side of the 'phenomenon' you feel the 'intelligence' sits. Is the observer being (mis)directed, or are they actually giving shape to it? A lot of the more involved reports seem to have the logic of dreams as much as anything else - i.e. very little on the face of it, but perhaps reflecting the observer's subconscious preoccupations.

As for Roswell, I think it's mainly evidence that people like nothing more than telling a good story, even if it's based on the flimsiest of recollections.
 
And who knows if there are NOT many cloaked devices using our air space, we would have no idea!
Rings an instant bell... amongst others similar, I was able to personally document this in some detail.

Raw, as originally posted!

www.forteanmedia.com/Julia.pdf

Was that really back in 1995.... and still none the wiser about these triangle things...:)
 
I think everyone forgets that this whole mess was started by the Army Air Force announcing to the newspapers that on 7/8/1947 that the military had captured a flying saucer.

This was no civilian starting this mess, but the military.

There had to be something unusual going on for all of this to happen.

The military put a lid on Roswell until in 1970 Jesse Marcel told Stanton Friedman to investigate.
 
Is it worth following up..? Yes, I think so and shall have a try.
Found, so far, one news report in the London based 'Guardian', however, merely a brief extract from the U.S. Associated Press newsfeeds.

The London 'Evening Standard' did carry an 8 July, 1947 article, which explained to the British public:

"WITH two colleagues, I went up on the roof of the Evening Standard building to day, and all three of us distinctly saw "flying saucers."

They appeared as a series of colourless discs with slightly darkened edges, moving rapidly across the field of vision. But none was as large. as a five-roomed house, like the object some American observers claimed to have seen. yesterday, and one person described them as looking "like cups rather than saucers."

What we saw were certainly not secret weapons. We were testing Professor F. S. Cotton's theory that what the Americans have seen are merely images due to the effect of red blood corpuscles passing in front of the retina".

Might as well close this thread down then?
 
These are from my archives and I was wondering if perhaps of interest?

They are copies of the Internet Relay Chat hosted by the 'United Kingdom UFO Network' in 1997 and 1998 with Stanton Friedman and Kevin Randle, respectively.

The archive value is often questions being raised and answered, which you might not find covered elsewhere.

I have not read through them entirely, however, Roswell does seem to come up in discussions!

www.forteanmedia.com/Friedman.pdf

www.forteanmedia.com/K_Randle.pdf

.
 
Also from my archives....

I simply cannot remember where this originates from.

It's obviously something that I once compiled from video footage and I believe is Frank Kaufmann's sketch of the 'Roswell craft', purportedly drawn at the time on letterheaded paper?

KAUFMAN2.JPG
 
I suppose it all comes down to which side of the 'phenomenon' you feel the 'intelligence' sits. Is the observer being (mis)directed, or are they actually giving shape to it? A lot of the more involved reports seem to have the logic of dreams as much as anything else - i.e. very little on the face of it, but perhaps reflecting the observer's subconscious preoccupations.

As for Roswell, I think it's mainly evidence that people like nothing more than telling a good story, even if it's based on the flimsiest of recollections.
I agree as regards the dream-like logic and of course you have the ‘Oz factor’ of high strangeness accounts that is also somewhat like a dream state. However, it gets complicated with multiple witnesses reporting the same ‘dream’, which to me suggests an external factor or intelligence
 
On 8 July, the Associated Press released a newsfeed from Fort Worth and it appeared in several newspapers the next day, 9 July.

Although there were, typically, slight variations in the extract transcript, this was essentially the main content.

"The remains of the weather device were flown here at the command of General Ramey, after their discovery by W. W. Brazell on his ranch about 85 miles northwest of Roswell, and the subsequent reporting of the incident to authorities at Roswell Army Air Field.

Brazell, whose ranch is 30 miles from the nearest telephone and has no radio, knew nothing about flying disks when he found the remains of the weather device scattered over a square mile of his property three weeks ago.

He bundled together the large pile of tinfoil and broken wooden beams about one fourth of an inch think and a half-inch wide and the torn mass of synthetic rubber that had been the balloon and rolled it under some brush, according to Maj. Jesse A. Marcel of Houma, La., 509th Bomb Group intelligence officer at Roswell, who brought the device to FW-AAF.

On a trip to town Saturday night to Corona. N. M., Brazell heard the first reference to the "silver flying disks", Major Marcel related at General Ramey's headquarters here.

"Brazell then hurried home, and bright and early Sunday dug up the remnants of the kite and balloon," Marvel continued, "and on Monday headed for Roswell to report his find to the sheriff".

This resulted in a call to Roswell Army Air Field by the sheriff and to Marcel's being assigned the case. Marcel and Brazell then journeyed back to the ranch, where the major took the discovery into the custody of the Army.

After Col. William H. Blanchard. 509th commanding officer, reported the incident to General Ramey, he was ordered to dispatch the object to Fort Worth army air field immediately,
(End)

However, the 'Fort Worth Star-Telegram' quoting the interview with Major Marcel, incorporates a paragraph with I can't locate being published anywhere else.

It includes seemingly significant confirmation from Marcel, regarding the additional debris content which he helped to collect, from the site:

"The ranch is out in the middle of nowhere," Marcel declared, "and we spent a couple of hours Monday afternoon looking for any more parts of the weather device. We found a few more patches of tinfoil and rubber".
 
Found, so far, one news report in the London based 'Guardian', however, merely a brief extract from the U.S. Associated Press newsfeeds.

The London 'Evening Standard' did carry an 8 July, 1947 article, which explained to the British public:

"WITH two colleagues, I went up on the roof of the Evening Standard building to day, and all three of us distinctly saw "flying saucers."

They appeared as a series of colourless discs with slightly darkened edges, moving rapidly across the field of vision. But none was as large. as a five-roomed house, like the object some American observers claimed to have seen. yesterday, and one person described them as looking "like cups rather than saucers."

What we saw were certainly not secret weapons. We were testing Professor F. S. Cotton's theory that what the Americans have seen are merely images due to the effect of red blood corpuscles passing in front of the retina".

I think the phrase "not secret weapons" emphasises a key point about the context of the original Roswell press release. Announcing that they had captured debris of a "flying disk" was not simply another way of saying that they had captured a spacecraft, as the wider public concern at the time was that the phenomenon was an (earthly) secret weapon.
 
Rings an instant bell... amongst others similar, I was able to personally document this in some detail.

Raw, as originally posted!

www.forteanmedia.com/Julia.pdf

Was that really back in 1995.... and still none the wiser about these triangle things...:)
I am pretty sure now that the black triangles are a secret US device. For one thing, the descriptions are extremely consistent regarding the shape, the lights underneath including the large round one in the centre, plus the evidence presented in that excellent NIDs report that many are seen on flight paths connecting certain USAF bases. No types of UFO (except maybe the cloud cigars seen in 1954) present such consistent descriptions. The details always vary. There are some videos on You Tube claiming the same.
 
Also from my archives....

I simply cannot remember where this originates from.

It's obviously something that I once compiled from video footage and I believe is Frank Kaufmann's sketch of the 'Roswell craft', purportedly drawn at the time on letterheaded paper?

View attachment 50934

Kaufman's drawing looks awfully similar to the Aereon 26 pictured in the "triangle" thread.
 
I am pretty sure now that the black triangles are a secret US device. For one thing, the descriptions are extremely consistent regarding the shape, the lights underneath including the large round one in the centre, plus the evidence presented in that excellent NIDs report that many are seen on flight paths connecting certain USAF bases. No types of UFO (except maybe the cloud cigars seen in 1954) present such consistent descriptions. The details always vary. There are some videos on You Tube claiming the same.

One thing I do wonder is whether all the 'triangle' reports featuring that particular light pattern postdate the well-known, probable fake, photograph dating from the 1989 Belgian 'flap'.

That photograph has been so widely reproduced that it must have had a substantial cultural influence. I'm trying to think of well-known earlier reports featuring a triangle or delta configuration and all the ones that come to mind (some of the Hudson Valley sightings, the 1977 sightings around Lake Windermere, that weird case from Texas in 1965 where a UFO 'healed' a deputy sheriff's alligator bite) are quite different.
 
I think everyone forgets that this whole mess was started by the Army Air Force announcing to the newspapers that on 7/8/1947 that the military had captured a flying saucer.

This was no civilian starting this mess, but the military.

There had to be something unusual going on for all of this to happen.

The military put a lid on Roswell until in 1970 Jesse Marcel told Stanton Friedman to investigate.
I'm so glad you brought that fact up - and everyone also forgets Mack Brazel, the rancher who originally found the debris:

https://www.nicap.org/rosbraz.htm
 
Also from my archives....

I simply cannot remember where this originates from.

It's obviously something that I once compiled from video footage and I believe is Frank Kaufmann's sketch of the 'Roswell craft', purportedly drawn at the time on letterheaded paper?

View attachment 50934

Kaufmann's sketches apparently surfaced when he was interviewed by Schmitt and Randle for their 1994 book. Randle mentions Kaufmann having a "sketchbook" with such drawings in his retrospective account of his interactions with and assessment of Kaufmann as an alleged 1947 witness:

http://www.cufos.org/FrankKaufmannExposed.pdf

It's clear that Kaufmann's sketches were used as the basis for a series of artist conceptions developed by William Louis McDonald during the 1990s. McDonald's annotated draft drawings from that period can be reviewed at:

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/aYegw9

McDonald's eventual conception is illustrated in this 1997 edition of his evolving work:

Mcdonald-1997.jpg

SOURCE & LARGER VERSION: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Kr04OX

McDonald himself interviewed Kaufmann, and he noted his image development was based on interviews conducted by himself as well as Randle and Schmitt. (See sidebar text on the two ArtStation webpages linked above.)

McDonald was working with or for multiple clients, including multiple TV / movie production units, a UK scale modeling magazine, and model manufacturer Testor.

The modeling connection is relevant because the form and features of Kaufmann's alleged sketch and McDonald's illustrations bear a strong resemblance to scale models of the alleged F-19 stealth fighter marketed by Testor, Monogram, and Revell in the 1980s. Artists' conceptions of the alleged F-19 date back as far as the late 1970s. Certain features evident in the alleged Kaufmann sketches don't reflect any aeronautical R&D concepts preceding that timeframe.

I see no reason to believe the Kaufmann sketches were made any earlier than the period when he suddenly surfaced as an alleged 1947 witness - i.e., sometime after the F-19 imagery was well established in popular media and toys, when he was a Roswell Chamber of Commerce official actively promoting the proposed UFO museum.
 
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