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The Roswell Incident [1947]

Considering the fact that the Wright Brothers didn't fly their first plane until 1903, it is kind of puzzling to just dismiss sightings of flying objects as merely government experiments or trials,
Roswell is very much a "one-off" and of its time.

There are endless other cases which do not fall apart, just because this one now seems explicable.

Plus, the Roswell Museum will not go out of business, any time soon! :)
 
Considering the fact that the Wright Brothers didn't fly their first plane until 1903, it is kind of puzzling to just dismiss sightings of flying objects as merely government experiments or trials, after all there were many observations of 'flying machines' back in the 1800's.
JMO, there is more to it.
You do realise we’ve covered all the UFO stuff going back to that time already?
To us old hands, it’s a matter of patiently recovering the old ground over and over and over again.
I remember when this was all just fields. But with alien airballoons
lassoing cows.

Jussssssssst out of reach.
 
Funny, They could have just told Brazel and others it was just a military project gone wrong --not to worry, no big deal. Instead because of the bizarre nature of it they came and basically took Brazel into custody and threatened to revoke the license of the local radio station if they reported the bizarre nature of it. Why overreact like that? If it was mundane, not an issue, What was Brazel going to say? If it was foil and balsa wood, who cares?
Debunkers go quiet at all his point. Very, very quiet.
 
Debunkers go quiet at all his point. Very, very quiet.

For obvious reasons, the military wouldn't have suddenly turned round and admitted to the press that ok, this was debris from their ongoing project to detect enemy nuclear tests. The fact that the debris was largely mundane stuff like foil and sticks doesn't make it or the project any less 'sensitive'. No doubt most people in the local chain of command, up to and including Ramey, were also frantically trying to protect their own careers given the fact that Haut's issue of the press release was a fairly serious mess-up.

The weather balloon story was a quick way of making sure the story stopped at Ramey's office - this wasn't about covering up crashed spacecraft, more a case of covering up their own incompetence. Indeed, it worked well enough that everyone lost interest in Roswell for thirty years.

As for Brazel, there's no evidence he was kept in 'custody' but even if (and it's a huge if) there was any ulterior motive for the USAAF having him stay in the base guest house, it was most likely as they were checking - as a precaution - he didn't have any history of 'unusual' political views, Russian pen pals, lodgers with funny accents, etc.
 
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I think that the more conspiratorial interpretations of what happened at Roswell tend to assume that the military is a consistently competent entity that can always act with a single purpose. In reality, it's a very large organisation made up of individuals of varying degrees of ability, which at the time of Roswell was undergoing a severe contraction of funding and staffing levels. It suffered the same problems as any organisation staffed by human beings and held together by typewritten memos and the telephone system.

If the details of USAAF personnel blundering about in the desert, mistakenly causing a 'flying saucer' sensation over some bits of stick and foil and nearly exposing something of genuine national security interest read a bit like a discarded chapter of Catch-22, then...well.
 
By way of understanding this point about covering their own backs and how this drove the apparently mysterious behaviour of the USAAF, note that in the 70s Marcel was characterising Haut as "an eager beaver PIO who took it upon himself to call the AP on this thing". Yes, it was all poor old Haut's fault, apparently.

Yet Marcel himself had probably had a hand in the press release! He was the one who'd decided that yes, the debris might be one of these flying disc things. He'd even showed these supposedly exotic, top-secret debris to his own family before showing them to his military colleagues - a breathtaking security lapse if this was something of huge importance.

I also take the extreme uncertainty around whether Col. Blanchard authorised the press release / Haut's telephone conversations as a sign that yes, Blanchard probably did authorise whatever was waved across his desk that morning, but afterwards tried to ensure he was connected as little as possible with it. Anyone who has ever worked within a large management structure will recognise what was going on here.
 
Just a point that over here, Roswell is taken very seriously -
'Feinman' is right - if it was nothing, it would have disappeared as a non-story in 5 minutes, but instead it is still front-page news 75 years later. Why did Brazel tell neighbors, friends and family about this odd debris - because he recognized it as not being normal, apparently.

An interesting article on the 2 children of Roswell:

https://www.theufochronicles.com/2012/03/children-who-bore-witness-to-roswell.html
 
... if it was nothing, it would have disappeared as a non-story in 5 minutes, but instead it is still front-page news 75 years later. ...

It did disappear as a non-story after about 5 days or 5 weeks. It remained a non-story until it was resurrected circa 30 years later, at the very end of the Seventies and the 1980 publication of the Berlitz and Moore book The Roswell Incident.

It wasn't until this later timeframe that the Roswell story became the big deal we know today. More to the point - it wasn't until this later period that all the additional encrustations of (e.g.) alien bodies, autopsies, multiple crash sites, etc., coalesced around the basic Roswell story to produce the huge narrative it's become.
 
It did disappear as a non-story after about 5 days or 5 weeks. It remained a non-story until it was resurrected circa 30 years later, at the very end of the Seventies and the 1980 publication of the Berlitz and Moore book The Roswell Incident.

It wasn't until this later timeframe that the Roswell story became the big deal we know today. More to the point - it wasn't until this later period that all the additional encrustations of (e.g.) alien bodies, autopsies, multiple crash sites, etc., coalesced around the basic Roswell story to produce the huge narrative it's become.
Just my opinion, but one has to wonder why Jesse Marcel and others came forward.
And my feeling is that the story 'disappeared' early on by orders of the military.
 

The thing that's usually overlooked is that the journalist Whitmore kept hold of Brazel for a couple of days, trying to ensure he got an exclusive on any story. He was likely with Whitmore until the 10th - Randle doesn't mention dates here.

He spent a bit of time on the base afterwards but my feeling about that is more the case that, if anything, they were simply checking out he wasn't an obvious security risk, rather than programming him to tell a 'weather balloon' cover story.
 
The thing that's usually overlooked is that the journalist Whitmore kept hold of Brazel for a couple of days, trying to ensure he got an exclusive on any story. He was likely with Whitmore until the 10th - Randle doesn't mention dates here.

He spent a bit of time on the base afterwards but my feeling about that is more the case that, if anything, they were simply checking out he wasn't an obvious security risk, rather than programming him to tell a 'weather balloon' cover story.
Odd however, that Brazel refused to speak of the case, for the rest of his life.
A very strange set of circumstances revolving around this case, and many people as well.
 
I read an “opinion” article that claimed because of Kenneth Arnold’s UFO sighting earlier in 1947, the country was UFO “crazy”.

Supposedly all kinds of money offers were floating all over the U.S. if someone could bring in real proof of a UFO.

Supposedly Mack Brazil and the sheriff were first looking for money, but decided best to contact the Army Air Force.

I find it interesting that this could have been the “ mind set “ of the country at this time, easy money !
 
Why did Brazel tell neighbors, friends and family about this odd debris - because he recognized it as not being normal, apparently.
A central feature is why Major Marcel thought the debris was 'not of this world', to an extent that he stopped off at home first, to show his family.

What made him think so?

it's something which has always puzzled myself and recent discussions have been helpful in recreating a perspective of that time.

Are we mistakenly contemplating a scenario, where he believed the debris came from an enormous, circular, metallic spacecraft, when that's not what he had in mind at all?

It was only some 15 days after 'flying saucers' became a headline story. The newspaper front pages were reporting latest sightings of 'flying discs', which were of all manner of things and every size, even only a few feet in diameter.

Those 'I-beams' with 'non-earthly' writing seem to have been pivotal in Marcel's conclusion.

The idea why it could be part of a spaceship, might also have been influenced by debris apparently strewn over a large area - a significantly more sizable 'project mogul' balloon was involved, not a weather balloon.

Critically, nobody knew what these new 'flying discs' were and whilst Marcel's deliberation may appear incongruous now, it would not have been unreasonable?

Ultimately, it was Marcel's judgement call, however, we have to keep in mind he was not alone in making that determination.

Why did Haut, seemingly of a seperate volition, send a news release, announcing that the base had recovered a 'flying disc', albeit there being no attribution to it being of non-earthly origin.

Profoundly important, of course, is that both Haut and Marcel are basing the assessment on our debris which Brazel discovered - the foil, broken sticks and rubber.

Nothing else.

We have established that its the exact same jumble of pieces Marcel is photograph with - he never claimed otherwise.

It's not from a 'flying disc'... except that it was... so far as Marcel believed.

Marcel was convinced to such an extent, he delayed experienced examination of what might have been evidence of an ongoing threat to the U.S., by stopping of at home first to unload some of the material for his family to see.

Presumably he didn't report this and covered-up that fact.

There's no debate Marcel could have jeopordised national security by doing so. As previously noted, his son, in later years, recalls that there was so much of the debris in their kitchen, perhaps some small pieces were left behind when it was reloaded back onto the vehicle

What if a critical, tiny component, was left unnoticed, at the house.

What about the danger of exposure to an alien virus? Maybe that's what the object was carrying and intentionally bringing to earth as a weapon.

Aside from which, Marcel was in no position to personally rule out the more likely prospect of a secret Soviet weapon, the 'hieroglyphics' being Russian cyrillic characters, he was unfamiliar with.

It is all set against that background, where in the days beforehand, even the New Mexico newspapers were carrying daily front page stories about those 'flying discs' and particularly, how the Army Air Forces (AAF), did not know whate they were, or where they came from.

We can only wonder how much of an influence that might have been.

Whilst Marcel was perhaps, singularly 'overenthusiadtic', how many of us, under those overall circumstances, might have come to that same conclusion.

The story 'grew wings' again, back in the 1980s and remains popularised, because it's almost certainly not generally realised that the AAF did not cover-up the find of a large, metallic, circular, archetypal 'flying saucer'.

All that occurred was that they changed their story from Brazel finding a 'flying disc', to it being a 'weather balloon'.

They didn't change the debris though.

Marcel is photographed holding the same 'flying disc' as the one Brazel came across in the first instance.

Brazel, in his press interviews, expressed he would never report a similar find, simply due to the unanticipated, extraordinary furore it had caused.

Brazel is quoted as remarking, "Lord, how that story had traveled".

Considering this was reportedly on 9, July, 1947, perhaps there is a tangible irony.

His full story, which features nothing remotely sinister, was widely reported and this is one example, by the Clovis News-Journal, in New Mexico.

www.forteanmedia.com/1947-07_09_Clovis_News_Journal.pdf
 
This is a revelation...

I have long wondered when Kenneth Arnold's reportedly extremely thin objects, soon
, of course, designated as a 'flying disc', or 'flying saucer', became perceived as our popularised 'upturned soup plate' or two stuck together.

I presumed this was imperceptible and it gradually evolved over the coming months, if not perhaps until even later.

In relation to my previous posting concerning Maj. Jesse Marcel, whilst looking into the New Mexico newspaper reports leading up to our Roswell case, I came across the following:

Screenshot_20220201-232128.jpg


It's from the 'Clovis News-Journal' and dated 7 July, only 13 days after Arnold's sighting.

There surely cant be anything earlier and comparable to the generic 'flying saucer' - significantly different from what Arold actually described.

It's unfortunately a poor quality image and I shall endeavour to find a better copy.

This is also a case I can't recall hearing about previously and sounds particularly interesting.

Again, shall follow up further details.

So, there you go, if maybe Roswell isn't the persuasive evidence it once was - certainly used to be for myself way back - then along comes another one which could be intriguing. :)
 
Supposedly all kinds of money offers were floating all over the U.S. if someone could bring in real proof of a UFO.

Supposedly Mack Brazil and the sheriff were first looking for money, but decided best to contact the Army Air Force.

I find it interesting that this could have been the “ mind set “ of the country at this time, easy money !
We don't know if Brazel heard about the reward money on offer - there does seem to have been 3 seperate rewards of $1000 - however, researching the contemporary newspaper archives, there were some claimants!

Some of these are quite humerous, in retrospect.

My favourite, related report is the chap who claimed to have invented the 'flying disc', which he believed to now be 'atomic powered'.

His original design though, was slightly different, as it was powered by a rubber band. :)
 
Now here's the part nobody seems to mention. Ruppelt hadn't returned to active duty, joined the Air Technical Intelligence Center, and been assigned to Project Grudge until late 1951 - two years or more after the alleged EOS had been created and run its course under Project Sign. He wasn't involved at all with the EOS / eos in Project Sign. His knowledge of any EOS had to have come from local history or outright hearsay.
Hopefully pertaining to discussions, I have uploaded copies of the following articles:

TRUE magazine, January 1950
THE FLYING SAUCERS ARE REAL
by DONALD E. KEYHOE

Article only:

www.forteanmedia.com/TRUE_1950_01.pdf


TRUE magazine, May 1954
WHAT OUR AIR FORCE FOUND OUT ABOUT FLYING SAUCERS
BY CAPTAIN EDWARD J RUPPELT, USAFR

Full magazine (This is the only copy I can locate online and is 90Mb):

www.forteanmedia.com/TRUE_1954_05.pdf


TRUE magazine, January 1966
I know the secret of the flying saucers
says Maj. Donald E. Keyhoe, USMC (Ret.)


Article only:

www.forteanmedia.com/TRUE_1966_01.pdf

It's all about those 'flying saucers'...!
 
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Hopefully pertaining to discussions, I have uploaded copies of the following articles:

TRUE magazine, January 1950
THE FLYING SAUCERS ARE REAL
by DONALD E. KEYHOE

Article only:

www.forteanmedia.com/TRUE_1950_01.pdf


TRUE magazine, May 1954
WHAT OUR AIR FORCE FOUND OUT ABOUT FLYING SAUCERS
BY CAPTAIN EDWARD J RUPPELT, USAFR

Full magazine (This is the only copy I can locate online and is 90Mb):

www.forteanmedia.com/TRUE_1954_05.pdf


TRUE magazine, January 1966
I know the secret of the flying saucers
says Maj. Donald E. Keyhoe, USMC (Ret.)


Article only:

www.forteanmedia.com/TRUE_1966_01.pdf

It's all about those 'flying saucers'...!

Come to think of it Keyhoe's rather conspiratorial view of the whole phenomenon was probably instrumental in creating the myth of a 'cover-up', given that he's effectively the patron saint of nuts-and-bolts ufology.
 
Can they get those sticks and foil skin to fly and what would it look like?
That’s surely easier to replicate than a crashed ufo as a new starting point.
Never mind the ufo… show us the balloon.
 
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However, later on he told a totally different story, that he was ordered to take those photos...
If that were true, a different perspective.

However, it isn't and this is Marcel's testimony from 'The Roswell Incident', co-authored by Berlitz and Moore:

"General Ramey allowed some members of the press in to take a picture of this stuff. They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris. The press was allowed to photograph this, but were not allowed far enough into the room to touch it. The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we had found. It was not a staged photo".

Furthermore, this is Marcel's documented account, in real time, quoting (with my emphasis):

Fort Worth Star-Telegram
9 July, 1947

Brazell bundied together the large pile of tinfoil and broken wooden beams about one-fourth of an inch thick and a half-inch wide and the torn mass of synthetic rubber that had been the balloon and rolled it under some brush according to Maj Jesse A. Marcel of Houma, La, 509th Bomb Group intelligence officer at Roswell, who brought the device to FW-AAF.

On trip to town Saturday night to Corona, N. M. Brazell heard the first reference to the "silver flying disks," Major Marcel related at General Ramey's headquarters here.

"Brazell then hurried home and bright and early Sunday dug up the remnants of the kite and halloon, Marcel continued, and on Monday headed for Roswell to report his find to the sheriff.

This resulted in a call to Roswell Army Air Field by the sheriff and to Marcel's being assigned the case. Marcel and Brazell then journeyed back to the ranch, where the major took the discovery into the custody of the Army.

"The ranch is out in the middle of nowhere", Marcel declared, "and we spent a couple of hours Monday afternoon looking for any more parts of the weather device. We found a few more patches of tinfoil and rubber."
(End)

Of course, Marcel is keeping quiet about the fact he, personally, initially thought it was from outer space and had broken every 'intelligence' protocol in existence, by deciding it was so amazing, he had to stop off home and show his family first.

Same, "broken wooden beams about one-fourth of an inch thick and a half-inch wide and the torn mass of synthetic rubber that had been the balloon and rolled it under some brush", according to Maj Jesse A. Marcel of Houma, same "tinfoil and rubber", to quote Marcel, as he helped recover, same as he made a detour home with in excitement and elementally, exactly the same he is photographed holding up...

...to demonstrate and prove what the 'flying disc', piecemeal foil, sticks and rubber debris was, he had been at the forefront of helping to collect.

That's the core essence of Marcel's involvement and ultimately he is captured for eternity, displayng the hard-core proof.

Marcel never, ever, claimed otherwise.

If there's no disputing this fact, then is the case not self-evidently closed?
 
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However, it isn't and this is Marcel's testimony from 'The Roswell Incident', co-authored by Berlitz and Moore:
Marcel continues and makes a pivotal claim, which has been sized upon as evidence of a 'cover-up' - the 'real flying saucer' wreckage had been switched for that from a wether balloon

"They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris. The press was allowed to photograph this, but were not allowed far enough into the room to touch it. The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we had found. It was not a staged photo

Later, they cleared out our wreckage and substituted some of their own. Then they allowed more photos. Those photos were taken while the actual wreckage was already on its way to Wright Field. I was not in these. I believe these were taken with the general and one of his aides".

Marcel's photographed debris was never 'cleared out' and nefariously replaced by something entirely different and deceitful.

A somewhat blatant clue, is that the scattered floor layout clearly stays effectively the same throughout the picture sequence:

Resize_20220203_042808_8983.jpg


Resize_20220203_042809_9374.jpg


Resize_20220203_042809_9617.jpg


Also, it was confirmed by the AAF, that no subsequent flight of the material to Wright Fieldtook was now necessary.

At which point do Marcel's claims become untenable?
 
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Marcel later attempted to suggest that the large sheet of paper seen in some of the photos was covering up the 'real' debris.

I find it unfortunate that he was pressured into making this kind of statement - I say 'pressure' as, even if interviewers weren't necessarily putting words into his mouth, the social pressure to provide some justification of his earlier actions would have been considerable.

You see a similar kind of issue with other Roswell interviews conducted with elderly and often frail men who are probably sick of questions and not at all clear about events half a century earlier.
 
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