Is Roswell Finally Dead?

INT21

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#61
...but the number of impacts from the sides are minimal compared to those from the front...

You only need one.

If someone fires a bullet at a passing train, the damage is done by the forward velocity of the bullet, not the forward velocity of the train. This forward velocity of the train will have an effect though. The resultant damage will possibly be a vector sum of the two.

INT21
 

SkepticalX

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#63
INT - sorry for the late follow-up. Rather than Stephensville, if I had to pick a radar case, I would much rather go with the 1957 RB-47 incident.

Again, I just have a hard time with massive UFOs that somehow get noticed by only a handful of people. It is far too easy for a witness to draw imaginary lines connecting lights in a night sky.
 

INT21

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#64
An interesting radar case that sort of sums up the problem is the one where a flight to, I think, Guernsey, saw a large yellow object. This was joined by another one.

The air traffic control couldn't see it on the normal ATC radar, nor could they see it on the primary radar.

Until the operator reset the machine to detect stationary objects. Then they saw it.

This is logical as why would they be looking for stationary objects in the sky ? Anything in the sky would have to get to their position by motion, and they could be detected by primary radar if moving.

This is possibly why some ufo are not detected by radar.

I'll come back and correct the above flight details when I find them.

I also find it hard to understand why so many people in a given area do not see massive objects in the sky.
I believe there is a whole school of thought about this.

Coal,

Not sure what you mean by your #62 above.

INT21
 

eburacum

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#65
...but the number of impacts from the sides are minimal compared to those from the front...

You only need one.

If someone fires a bullet at a passing train, the damage is done by the forward velocity of the bullet, not the forward velocity of the train. This forward velocity of the train will have an effect though. The resultant damage will possibly be a vector sum of the two.

INT21
A better analogy would be flies hitting a bullet train. Sure you get a few on the sides of the train, but they are nearly all at the front. Which is why bullet trains are shaped like bullets, and interstellar spacecraft would be long and thin, too. In fact, if you want to eliminate sideways impacts it is easy enough to extend the shield sideways a little bit, so that particles coming in from the side are intercepted too.
 
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eburacum

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#66
An interesting radar case that sort of sums up the problem is the one where a flight to, I think, Guernsey, saw a large yellow object. This was joined by another one.
The air traffic control couldn't see it on the normal ATC radar, nor could they see it on the primary radar.
Until the operator reset the machine to detect stationary objects. Then they saw it.
That's probably the Alderney UFO.
Analysis here
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/165a/6bd42a959e51eff6baedd2ff933c215b6080.pdf

The stationary radar return may have been a surface vessel- a ship.
 

Mythopoeika

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#67
A better analogy would be flies hitting a bullet train. Sure you get a few on the sides of the train, but they are nearly all at the front. Which is why bullet trains are shaped like bullets, and interstellar spacecraft would be long and thin, too.
I think so, too.
The odds of something hitting the craft are reduced by it having a long, thin profile.
Also, other reasons as I suggested earlier...modularity facilitates repairability. Also, a nuclear power source and engines can be at one end and living quarters/command centre at the front. Most of the shielding weight would be at the front.
A good example of this design philosophy is:
 

INT21

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#68
Eburacum,

Yes, that was the one.

..The stationary radar return may have been a surface vessel- a ship...

I can't remember whether or not they gave an elevation figure for the object they detected. Or if their primary radar even detected down to sea level.

INT21
 

INT21

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#69
...Which is why bullet trains are shaped like bullets,..

Bullet trains are shaped like bullets to reduce air resistance.

And the newer Shinkansen trains have a different front end. This also to reduce air resistance but also to exert a slight downward force to prevent the front lifting.

Engineering is always a compromise.

Back to spaceships.

There does seem to be a belief that you can blast off in any direction and hit nothing for years.

To do that, space would have to be empty. No planets, stars, asteroids etc.

And at close to light speed, radar would not help you. By the time the pulse hit the object and returned, you would probably also have hit it.

So, one step at a time; or maybe two.

First the Moon, then Mars.

INT21
 

eburacum

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#70
Space is empty, for all intents and purposes.
We can detect and measure the dust, the atomic gas, the molecular gas, using the methods I described earlier. And we can estimate the incidence of any larger objects - planets, asteroids, neutron stars, and so on, by looking for occultations of distant stars and galaxies. Using this method astronomers have eliminated the possibility that dark matter consists of MACHOs - Massive compact halo objects - there really aren't enough solid objects up there to explain dark matter, so it must be something else.

If there are dangers in interstellar space they are something we don't know about (but don't forget cosmic rays, which are a real danger whatever we do).
 

dr wu

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#71
Austin Popper mentioned this as being a good book on Roswell...written by Jesse Marcel, Jr...
'The Roswell Legacy'.
My local library carries it so I'm going to give it a go. Has anyone else read this one other than Popper?
 

Coal

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#72
PS. If it helps, I can keep hitting Roswell with a hammer unit it is dead.
 

dr wu

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#73
^well....if the only tool you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.

;)
 

Coal

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#74
^well....if the only tool you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.

;)
I never said that was my only tool :cool2: but for something as dead a door-nail, it might be the most apposite one.
 

dr wu

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#75
Some brief thoughts regarding Jesse Marcel Jr and his book....his credibility stands on his handling of the 'debris' (and believing his father of course...), but would a young boy have recognized strange 'alien debris' from some weather balloon program debris...? The only reason he probably thought it weird was because his father did. So did Marcel Sr know what he actually had in his hands? Is it possible he simply mis-identified debris from a project he wasn't that familiar with?
 

EnolaGaia

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#76
Some brief thoughts regarding Jesse Marcel Jr and his book....his credibility stands on his handling of the 'debris' (and believing his father of course...), but would a young boy have recognized strange 'alien debris' from some weather balloon program debris...? The only reason he probably thought it weird was because his father did. So did Marcel Sr know what he actually had in his hands? Is it possible he simply mis-identified debris from a project he wasn't that familiar with?
Based on my personal conclusions about the case, the answers to your 3 questions are: No, No, and Yes (respectively).

IMHO Marcel Sr. had no reason to know what the debris might represent and was blind-sided by the whole affair.

He and one other guy were 'first on the scene' to check on the debris at the Foster ranch, having gone there in response to being notified by the sheriff Brazel had found it. The pair from Roswell AAF met with Brazel, and the 3 of them examined the debris and attempted unsuccessfully to piece together what it had been. Marcel and the other guy took the bundle of debris Brazel had collected and returned to the air base.

It was this association with the original discovery and debris collection that most probably motivated Marcel's being assigned to accompany the debris to Fort Worth. The transfer of the debris to Texas was ordered from above (General Ramey, 8th Air Force).

My take on Marcel's situation is analogous to the old joke about Columbus ... He didn't know where things were going when he first got involved (to check Brazel's debris); he didn't know at any time during his direct involvement what was going on; and for some years thereafter he would have no reason to know what it had all been about.
 

Analis

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#77
It's possible that Marcel Jr was presented balloon material because his father thought that it was quite unusual and remarkable, although not strange. But it cannot explain the follow-ups, as Marcel Jr has been adamant that his father kept speaking of a 'flying saucer' until many years after. The presence of polyethylene does not do the job, because if the product was new, it was not revolutionnary, and in any case, Marcel Sr would have learnt in the following months what was going on. It's possible that his son's memories grew stranger with time, but it seems that there was something more, and possibly unrelated to the material he showed to his son, the latter's memory becoming confused later.

As for what Marcel is holding on the photos in Fort Worth, it was not of the kind to put the Roswell base into turmoil. While there was much controversy over the debris shown on the photos, the conclusion to draw from them is that they are just ordinary weather balloons and radar target (and, it seems, without any flower tape). As we know that the military conducted 'demonstrations' the following days involving many weather balloons to debunk flying saucers, some of them performed by the Mogul staff, we know that they had ample knowledge and easy access to them. Which means that whatever sensitive there was at the Roswell base, it had been replaced. Marcel, as a loyal intelligence officer, did his job and played his part in the manipulation.
 

IamSundog

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#79
Okay like most of you here I’m no big proponent of Roswell but I just have to relate an incident that happened to me last weekend.

The wife and I were at dinner last Saturday night with three other couples, all of them retired faculty of Texas Tech University here in Lubbock, Texas. Great food and smart company and the wine and conversation were flowing very freely and gregariously over a wide range of subjects. At some point my interest in astronomy and involvement in the local astronomy league came up, and the fact that I often haul my home-built telescope out to the dark skies in the boonies of west Texas. Somehow this morphed into a tangent on UFOs and my wife piped up that I’m interested in UFOs too – a bit to my chagrin because I tend to avoid discussing that subject in polite company unless there are clearly others with similar interests.

I said something to the effect of, “Well, there’s so much BS flying around in that arena, but if you dig a bit there are some interesting well-documented cases with pretty reliable-seeming witnesses”.

The guy to my left said, “Well, and there’s Roswell…”.

I groaned a little to myself, and then said that I thought the BS around Roswell was so deep and thick that we’d probably never be able to sort out what if anything happened there. But that it was at least interesting that the Army Air Corps itself had released that first press release, and that Jesse Marcel Sr. went on record late in his life saying that the material he handled didn’t resemble any earthly materials he’d ever seen.

Then one of the women across the table related that a now retired Texas Tech archaeology professor of their acquaintance claimed to have been on a dig nearby and to have seen the crash site and the alien bodies. Several of the others at the table nodded, indicating that they had also been present when he said this. She said he had revealed this on one or two occasions when he was a bit over-inebriated at a party and that he later apparently regretted having let it slip. I was stunned by this, and of course am familiar with the tale of the archaeology students who supposedly came across the second crash site and the bodies before being herded away by the military.

The conversation quickly moved on and in the moment I couldn’t think of a graceful way to return to or dwell on the subject.

I woke up Sunday morning and lay there amazed that I’d somehow come within one degree of separation from a purported Roswell witness. Knowing the couples around that table as I do I am completely convinced that the archaeologist actually said what they say he did. I’ve never met him and am not likely to as he has since moved away, and of course I have no way of judging his veracity. Even if he still lived here in town it seems to me that it would be a delicate thing to approach him on this subject since he is apparently reluctant to discuss it. I’m not going to share his name online.

So....another intriguing but unverifiable nugget.
 

GNC

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#80
I doubt you would have cleared up anything about the case anyway, but great anecdote all the same!
 
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