Is The Whole Truth About The Notre-Dame Cathedral Fire Being Presented?

bob61

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the French government is saying that no one was onsite at the cathedral when it went up in flames ,THATS A LIE ..... the French government is telling it’s citizens “ there’s nothing to see here folks “ ...... then how do they explain the man in white Muslim attire in the video , what was he doing ? too see the video go to www.barenakedislam.com , you can clearly see a man in white Muslim attire
 

Yithian

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the French government is saying that no one was onsite at the cathedral when it went up in flames ,THATS A LIE ..... the French government is telling it’s citizens “ there’s nothing to see here folks “ ...... then how do they explain the man in white Muslim attire in the video , what was he doing ? too see the video go to www.barenakedislam.com , you can clearly see a man in white Muslim attire
We'll see whether the evidential standard is met here. It's clear that there's an attempt from some groups to turn this into an anti-Islam device, so bear in mind that it is highly likely you are viewing somebody's propaganda.

Please keep the focus narrowly on the topic of this terrible fire and the flow of information.
 

McAvennie

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Clearly a construction worker in a yellow jacket and white helmet. Not to say it couldn't be an Islamic terrorist in disguise but there is no way that can be confirmed from that distance.

I have seen this already and it is suspicious, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that someone was doing overtime, unlikely given this was a four year renovation job, or that one of the renovation team was still on site after they had officially clocked off.

The fire brigade were there from 18:20 until they actually found the fire at 18:45, presumably someone working in the building had to lead them on their sweep and could feasibly have been wearing hi-vis gear and a helmet.

I wouldn't rule out a terrorist motive being covered up. They were incredibly fast to rule out that it was started deliberately, which you would assume would be impossible to do without a full investigation.

However, the bigger conspiracy for me follows a different path. The renovation work was planned to cost upward of 150 million and apparently was going to prove more problematic than first thought. I've read comments suggesting the integrity of the structure of the spire may not have been salvageable in order to remain safe.

Also fire breaks out just at the end of the day on a Monday, probably the least busy day. Many of the relics and important items had already been removed and were in storage elsewhere. A convenient fire, a sense of national 'mourning' for the loss, in Easter week of all times, a seemingly inexperienced (32 year old CEO, small regional company) team running the renovation to be the scapegoat, Macron's first statement was the launch of a national subscription so the country could all contribute to rebuild its history - Et voila! You have within days 600 million euros from the private sector and the problematic roof gone. I'd be intetested to see who gets the rebuild contract and who their connections are. Macron had also been set to make a speech Monday night addressing the Gilet Jaune issue. A national tragedy, nice way to deflect and rally a divided nation.
 

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...I have seen this already and it is suspicious, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that someone was doing overtime, unlikely given this was a four year renovation job...
Not really that unlikely. Although overtime inevitably ramps up towards the end of contracted works, especially if they are running behind (which they always are), there's a potential for overtime requirements at any point within the carrying out of extensive works and this will probably be factored into the budget. (You are talking about a situation with potentially a lot of overlapping tasks, trades and contracts - sometimes one element has to be pushed in order to acccommodate another, and this can happen at any time. Weather, conflict with opening times in public buildings, even skills and labour shortages etc, can also all play a part).
 
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the French government is saying that no one was onsite at the cathedral when it went up in flames ,THATS A LIE ..... the French government is telling it’s citizens “ there’s nothing to see here folks “ ...... then how do they explain the man in white Muslim attire in the video , what was he doing ? too see the video go to www.barenakedislam.com , you can clearly see a man in white Muslim attire
That site doesn't qualify as rational discussion. Anything that tags its material with "enemy within" is going to be... er.... partial!

@bob61 As an example of its bias and unreliability, have a look at the piece called

DENMARK: Muslims riot after quran-tossing Danish politician stages anti-Islam protest in Copenhagen

What happened is that a far right politician and well-known rabble rouser deliberately acted provocatively, and some people were unable to turn the other cheek and vented their anger, dismay and distress. In your Christian and USA terms @bob61 the equivalent could be desecrating the Host, mistreating a Bible, or using the flag as loo paper.

The site you are relying on here doesn't have any of that discussion. It is a place where people can write things like

Muslimes react to EVERYTHING with violence and thuggery. They absolutely are the slime of the earth. Toxic waste.
Are these your views? if they are not then you should find other sources for the material you want to discuss. By linking to the site without gloss you are promoting their bigoted agenda.

Shouting in block capitals doesn't make something true - it's often seen as the sign of a weak position in discussion. A bit like typing "WAKE UP" instead of engaging with the material.

The person you say is a man "in white muslim attire" is someone wearing a hard hat and a high-vis vest. It's someone trying to fight the fire.

By the way, there isn't such a thing as "white muslim attire". Do you mean a national dress? like, say kilts for Scotland? @bob61 please confirm that this is or isn't what you mean - but regardless, the figure in the video isn't wearing anything distinguishable beyond the hard hat and vest.

If you want a conspiracy then so far you've supported the idea that some people are taking a national disaster and trying to play it to their own agenda. And some other people are falling for it. When you launched into Britain-Police State? people (more or less politely) pointed out that your data was wrong and your interpretation well dodgy, obscuring the possibly interesting points. France is no less a complicated place that the UK ; please don't go down the same route again.
 

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However, the bigger conspiracy for me follows a different path. The renovation work was planned to cost upward of 150 million and apparently was going to prove more problematic than first thought.
Interesting! :pop:


Also fire breaks out just at the end of the day on a Monday, probably the least busy day. Many of the relics and important items had already been removed and were in storage elsewhere. A convenient fire, a sense of national 'mourning' for the loss, in Easter week of all times, a seemingly inexperienced (32 year old CEO, small regional company) team running the renovation to be the scapegoat, Macron's first statement was the launch of a national subscription so the country could all contribute to rebuild its history - Et voila! You have within days 600 million euros from the private sector and the problematic roof gone. I'd be intetested to see who gets the rebuild contract and who their connections are. Macron had also been set to make a speech Monday night addressing the Gilet Jaune issue. A national tragedy, nice way to deflect and rally a divided nation.
yes, hadn't occurred to me but I'm going to be watching. Even if it is a happy accident from that point of view it has the potential to be used in all these ways.
but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that someone was doing overtime, unlikely given this was a four year renovation job, or that one of the renovation team was still on site after they had officially clocked off.
Building sites I've worked on (as an archaeologist), it wouldn't be unlikely for either of these things to happen. Also, our survey and archaeological work was done mostly once the builders had gone home and we wouldn't get in each others way all the time. Much of the work after the York Minster fire was done out of hours - it was also the time that volunteer specialist professionals (like me :p ) could get there; I was working on recording wooden engineering, especially construction marks and other traces of the original builders.

Which reminds me - York Minster on fire!!!!!!! Muslim Conspiracy!!!!!!! Nope. LIghtening strike about 35 years ago - but I expect some loon to start claiming it's all related and that THE TRUTH is being supressed :rollingw:

@Swifty we were talking about this last night - how does this fit with your thoughts?
 

Spookdaddy

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...Which reminds me - York Minster on fire!!!!!!! Muslim Conspiracy!!!!!!! Nope. LIghtening strike about 35 years ago - but I expect some loon to start claiming it's all related and that THE TRUTH is being supressed...
They already did. Wasn't this blamed by some on the consecration of David Jenkins as Bishop of Durham?

IT WOZ GOD WOT DIDIT!! You cannot see THE TRUTH!!! Wibble, wibble. Muslims! Barack Obama! Spoons give you cancer! mumble Cough medicines are sterilizing white people mumble, mumble Penguins don't exist etc
 

gordonrutter

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They already did. Wasn't this blamed by some on the consecration of David Jenkins as Bishop of Durham?

IT WOZ GOD WOT DIDIT!! You cannot see THE TRUTH!!! Wibble, wibble. Muslims! Barack Obama! Spoons give you cancer! mumble Cough medicines are sterilizing white people mumble, mumble Penguins don't exist etc
Yes a direct result of Jenkins not believing in the virgin birth according to some
 

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bwhahahahahaha!

(except for the penguins. That is TRUTH!!!!!!! And I am a Concurned Citizen not an anti-pengueen bigot!!!!!!)
 

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Yes a direct result of Jenkins not believing in the virgin birth according to some
I remember. Although why god would smite the Minster rather than the Archbishop remains unexplained as far as I know.

Has there been a suggestion in this case that it is god smiting Notre Dame for some similar clerical infraction? I have enough french to read specific news reports and the archaeology but I can't stretch to ecclesiastical politics.

As background, I think that France really does do separation of church and state, rather than paying lip service - but is that right?
 

Bigphoot2

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Whenever I see people trying to present an argument using CAPITALS to get their POINT over reminds me of Spencer Tracy's line in Bad Day at Black Rock - "You're not only wrong. You're wrong at the top of your voice."
 

blessmycottonsocks

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"you can clearly see a man in white Muslim attire"

Surely a terrorist up to no good and attempting to infiltrate a prohibited area would not want to appear suspicious? Dressing in full-on islamist garb, whilst sneaking into Notre Dame under cover of broad daylight, strikes me as utterly illogical.
 

Bigphoot2

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"you can clearly see a man in white Muslim attire"

Surely a terrorist up to no good and attempting to infiltrate a prohibited area would not want to appear suspicious? Dressing in full-on islamist garb, whilst sneaking into Notre Dame under cover of broad daylight, strikes me as utterly illogical.
Ah well in that case, he was really an agent of the security services cunningly disguised as a Muslim to create suspicion.
 

maximus otter

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Dressing in full-on islamist garb, whilst sneaking into Notre Dame under cover of broad daylight, strikes me as utterly illogical.
It's a double bluff, you poor fool! You've drunk the multi-culti Kool-Aid!

Or...are you part of a Spetsnaz Black Ops dezinformatsiya scheme?

maximus otter
 

AnonyJoolz

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Repairs and renovations are a vulnerable time for a building and leave it more open to fires eg., exposed wood, more electrical connections being used than normal, contractors' lights, combustible solvents and materials hanging around, even workmen having the odd sneaky cig.

The Windsor Castle Fire of 1992 being a case in point, also the second burning-down of Glasgow School Of Art, having not quite finished renovations ensuing from the first fire.

That being said, France has seen a scattered spate of church desecrations, vandalism and arsons in recent years, with most sources seeming to blame militant secularism, a backlash against Catholic revelations of child abuse and radical extreme anarchist groups. @Cochise linked to this article yesterday: https://www.newsweek.com/spate-atta...-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

"The Vienna-based Observatory of Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe, which was founded in cooperation with the Council of European Bishops Conferences (CCEE) but is now independent said there had been a 25 percent increase in attacks on Catholic churches in the first two months of the year, compared with the same time last year.

Its executive director, Ellen Fantini, told Newsweek that while in many cases the motive for the attacks was not known, France faced growing problems with anti-Christian violence, especially by anarchist and feminist groups.

“I think there is a rising hostility in France against the church and its symbols," but "it seems to be more against Christianity and the symbols of Christianity.""

USA has also experienced similar occurrences very recently - churches with mostly an African-American congregation having been set on fire. A young man has been arrested: http://time.com/5568701/holden-matthews-charged-fire-black-churches-louisiana/

"....A Facebook page that appears to belong to Matthews shows him with the words “black metal” spray painted on a wall behind him. He also posted a comment on a movie’s portrayal of black metal musician Varg Vikernes, a far right figure convicted of manslaughter and arson at three churches. Black metal is an extreme subgenre of heavy metal with lyrics that often espouse Satanism and Paganism. A smaller subset of black metal bands feature neo-Nazi beliefs. The black metal scene was associated with Christian church burnings in Norway in the 1990s."

Given that terror attacks aimed at Christians in a church aim for times and days when they are filled with people, sometimes on significant days (Christmas day 2011 in Nigeria, the 2000 church bombings in south India, 2017 Quetta church attack) I think it's unlikely this event of fire at Notre Dame was a terror attack.

There has been a previous attempt to attack Notre Dame by Islamist terrorists in 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_de_Paris_bombing_attempt

My point being, there are terrorist attacks against Christians in their churches, and a sad list can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Islamist_attacks_on_churches Please feel free to get angry about this @bob61, I know I am appalled and angry that some so-called humans would stoop so low. But a fire breaking out at a time when the building is more or less empty and whilst major renovations are going on, doesn't really spring to mind as a terrorist attack.

[edited for typos, edited to add @ tags]
 
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McAvennie

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I remember. Although why god would smite the Minster rather than the Archbishop remains unexplained as far as I know.

Has there been a suggestion in this case that it is god smiting Notre Dame for some similar clerical infraction? I have enough french to read specific news reports and the archaeology but I can't stretch to ecclesiastical politics.

As background, I think that France really does do separation of church and state, rather than paying lip service - but is that right?
There was something I saw earlier claiming it as some kind of 'Divine Intervention' to fix a broken nation. Might have been on the Daily Mail though rather than in the French press. There does seem to have been a lot of visible praying and singing around the ND site, visible acts of religious faith from those you wouldn't obviously peg as religious types i.e. not dressed as a nun :) which I have never seen before in my years here.

There was a big gathering on the news last night at Place Saint Michel, just across the bridge from ND. Not sure what was going on there, or if it was just a general gathering but seemed to be hymn-singing and candle-lighting involved.
 

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the French government is saying that no one was onsite at the cathedral when it went up in flames ,THATS A LIE ..... the French government is telling it’s citizens “ there’s nothing to see here folks “ ...... then how do they explain the man in white Muslim attire in the video , what was he doing ? too see the video go to www.barenakedislam.com , you can clearly see a man in white Muslim attire
That might have been Pope Francis, he is often mistaken for a Muslim due to dressing in white.
 

McAvennie

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That being said, France has seen a scattered spate of church desecrations, vandalism and arsons in recent years, with most sources seeming to blame militant secularism, a backlash against Catholic revelations of child abuse and radical extreme anarchist groups. @Cochise linked to this article yesterday: https://www.newsweek.com/spate-atta...-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800
This is true, there has definitely been a trend for this in recent months which makes the immediate dismissal of any hint of it at ND seem very bizarre by the authorities.
 

bob61

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That site doesn't qualify as rational discussion. Anything that tags its material with "enemy within" is going to be... er.... partial!

@bob61 As an example of its bias and unreliability, have a look at the piece called

DENMARK: Muslims riot after quran-tossing Danish politician stages anti-Islam protest in Copenhagen

What happened is that a far right politician and well-known rabble rouser deliberately acted provocatively, and some people were unable to turn the other cheek and vented their anger, dismay and distress. In your Christian and USA terms @bob61 the equivalent could be desecrating the Host, mistreating a Bible, or using the flag as loo paper.

The site you are relying on here doesn't have any of that discussion. It is a place where people can write things like



Are these your views? if they are not then you should find other sources for the material you want to discuss. By linking to the site without gloss you are promoting their bigoted agenda.

Shouting in block capitals doesn't make something true - it's often seen as the sign of a weak position in discussion. A bit like typing "WAKE UP" instead of engaging with the material.

The person you say is a man "in white muslim attire" is someone wearing a hard hat and a high-vis vest. It's someone trying to fight the fire.

By the way, there isn't such a thing as "white muslim attire". Do you mean a national dress? like, say kilts for Scotland? @bob61 please confirm that this is or isn't what you mean - but regardless, the figure in the video isn't wearing anything distinguishable beyond the hard hat and vest.

If you want a conspiracy then so far you've supported the idea that some people are taking a national disaster and trying to play it to their own agenda. And some other people are falling for it. When you launched into Britain-Police State? people (more or less politely) pointed out that your data was wrong and your interpretation well dodgy, obscuring the possibly interesting points. France is no less a complicated place that the UK ; please don't go down the same route again.
it's obvious you don't spend any time on the website , yes i know it's been branded a hate site by c.a.i.r ( suprise , suprise ) & other leftist groups that want to shut it down . i know the piece that your referring too , i read it . i visit the site everyday , in fact i support them with monetary donations every now & then to keep the site up & running . the danish politician who was " tossing " around a quran ( not the smartest thing to do ) but that doesn't give people the right to go on a rampage burning cars & god knows what else . why everybody makes excuses for that kind of behavior is beyond me , i just don't get it . tell me the last time christian's went on a rampage when someone dis-respected a bible in any way ? because i'd really like to know . & before you tell me that it's a small group of people , it's the mind set that drives them . you really should pick up a quran & read it & / or talk to muslims who will be brutally honest with you . their is no such thing as moderate / extreme or radical islam , it's a tactic in islam called taqiyya ( deception & lying ) not hearsay , it's a fact that i learned myself from an ex - muslim from the philippines & can be found in the quran itself i know cause i looked it up . i've read the quran . i know that you & many people here think i'm racist & an islmaphobe & that's o.k but i'm not , what i am is a realist not afraid to speak out . & anyone who makes excuses for the kind of behavior above by anybody because they were upset because a book was being tossed around is also to blame for whats going on & enabling people to act like that
 
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Swifty

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Interesting! :pop:




yes, hadn't occurred to me but I'm going to be watching. Even if it is a happy accident from that point of view it has the potential to be used in all these ways.


Building sites I've worked on (as an archaeologist), it wouldn't be unlikely for either of these things to happen. Also, our survey and archaeological work was done mostly once the builders had gone home and we wouldn't get in each others way all the time. Much of the work after the York Minster fire was done out of hours - it was also the time that volunteer specialist professionals (like me :p ) could get there; I was working on recording wooden engineering, especially construction marks and other traces of the original builders.

Which reminds me - York Minster on fire!!!!!!! Muslim Conspiracy!!!!!!! Nope. LIghtening strike about 35 years ago - but I expect some loon to start claiming it's all related and that THE TRUTH is being supressed :rollingw:

@Swifty we were talking about this last night - how does this fit with your thoughts?
As a Fortean, I hold no opinion Fridesy *cough cough*
 

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it's obvious you don't spend any time on the website
I've just spent time reading it - as should be obvious from my post.

yes i know it's been branded a hate site by c.a.i.r ( suprise , suprise ) & other leftist groups that want to shut it down . i know the piece that your referring too , i read it . i visit the site everyday , in fact i support them with monetary donations every now & then to keep the site up & running .
Please address the issues raised with you both on thread and in PM, by myself and other staff, about your methods of debate, your citing of evidence and so on...

you really should pick up a quran & read it
I, and many other members, have done so :) Do you seriously think we haven't? This goes back to the idea of making sure you know the subject before you start to be dogmatic about it.

their is no such thing as moderate / extreme or radical islam , it's a tactic in islam called taqiyya ( deception & lying ) not hearsay , it's a fact that i learned myself from an ex - muslim from the philippines & can be found in the quran itself i know cause i looked it up . i've read the quran .
the christian equivalent is sophistry. It's a function of organised religion. You might like to compare and contrast.

i know that you & many people here think i'm racist & an islmaphobe & that's o.k but i'm not , what i am is a realist not afraid to speak out . & anyone who makes excuses for the kind of behavior above by anybody because they were upset because a book was being tossed around is also to blame for whats going on & enabling people to act like that
You are still not providing any evidence @bob61 You know that saying about the duck?

What you /are/ doing is continuing to behave in a way which has already brought you a warning. Last night we discussed what this mean and what would happen if you continued to break the rules. I strongly suggest that you revisit those conversations, this time without the rudeness and ad hominem attacks.

If you want to post further on this topic, please take the time to absorb all of the discussions you've had with us about how you do it. Nobody is saying you can't discuss these things, do not go off on another censorship kick please. You have been given guidelines on how to post within the rules. Follow them.

You could, for example, answer the questions asked about what on earth "muslim dress" is. Or put forward other sources with the same conclusions which do not exhibit the behaviour you say is not "you". Perhaps a compare and contrast on sophistry in the religions of the book?

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bob61

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I've just spent time reading it - as should be obvious from my post.



Please address the issues raised with you both on thread and in PM, by myself and other staff, about your methods of debate, your citing of evidence and so on...



I, and many other members, have done so :) Do you seriously think we haven't? This goes back to the idea of making sure you know the subject before you start to be dogmatic about it.



the christian equivalent is sophistry. It's a function of organised religion. You might like to compare and contrast.



You are still not providing any evidence @bob61 You know that saying about the duck?

What you /are/ doing is continuing to behave in a way which has already brought you a warning. Last night we discussed what this mean and what would happen if you continued to break the rules. I strongly suggest that you revisit those conversations, this time without the rudeness and ad hominem attacks.

If you want to post further on this topic, please take the time to absorb all of the discussions you've had with us about how you do it. Nobody is saying you can't discuss these things, do not go off on another censorship kick please. You have been given guidelines on how to post within the rules. Follow them.

You could, for example, answer the questions asked about what on earth "muslim dress" is. Or put forward other sources with the same conclusions which do not exhibit the behaviour you say is not "you". Perhaps a compare and contrast on sophistry in the religions of the book?

Frideswide
lol , just because you read 1 article doesn't mean that you spend time on the website , i'm sorry but it's true . as for posting more on the subject i'll just pass , taking some advice from a new friend here at ff .
 
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