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Is The Whole Truth About The Notre-Dame Cathedral Fire Being Presented?

blessmycottonsocks

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Why would the Gauls worship a Norse goddess?
There's evidence that Notre Dame was built on the site of a Temple to Jupiter from when the Romans occupied Gaul. Before that, who knows - wouldn't surprise me if the Romans deliberately built over a site sacred to the Parisii.
The Vikings, under the semi-legendary Ragnar Lodbruk, occupied several major towns in Gaul/Francia, including Paris.
Normandy basically became a Viking enclave and it's not hard to see some Viking heritage there even today.
They obviously brought their Norse religion with them. The evidence is though that the Vikings rapidly adopted Christianity and became Frankified in terms of language and culture.
Unlike the ephemeral effect of the Norse religion in Francia, the Roman pantheon of gods had a far stronger influence and supplanted the old Celtic religion throughout Gaul.
Notre Dame de Paris is thought to have been built on the site of an abandoned Gallo-Roman temple to Jupiter (originally "Dyeu-pater" meaning father-God).
 
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AlchoPwn

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Notre Dame de Paris is thought to have been built on the site of an abandoned Gallo-Roman temple to Jupiter (originally "Dyeu-pater" meaning father-God).
I must admit that I am curious about previous structures on the site. I am interested to know if the temple of Jupiter was merely converted into a church for example. I have long been interested in what happened to Europe's Sol Invictus temples, as I suspect many or all were converted into early Churches with a few cosmetic changes. The lack of surviving specifically Sol Invictus structures is suspicious imo. Incidentally, Sol Invictus is the first monotheist religion of the Roman Empire, and for a brief period, it was compulsory, much like Christianity became.
 

PeteS

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I do find it something of a paradox that there is such an outpouring of grief by the religious over what is essentially a building. Ok a nice old building (although the spire was 19th century) and I like nice old buildings, but still.
Having attended the scene of hundreds of fires in buildings, both large and small, I suspect the precise cause will never be known, due to the extent of destruction. Saying this, I'm sure there will be pressure on the Authorities to come up with a definitive explanation which will no doubt involve "discarded smoking materials", "smouldering materials" or some such. I found this a lot when the Fire service could not really determine a cause with any degree of certainty.

(off topic but I'll stick my oar in anyway. I've met many many Muslims and found them to be the most gentle, unassuming generous people you could ever come across )
 

blessmycottonsocks

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I do find it something of a paradox that there is such an outpouring of grief by the religious over what is essentially a building. Ok a nice old building (although the spire was 19th century) and I like nice old buildings, but still.
Having attended the scene of hundreds of fires in buildings, both large and small, I suspect the precise cause will never be known, due to the extent of destruction. Saying this, I'm sure there will be pressure on the Authorities to come up with a definitive explanation which will no doubt involve "discarded smoking materials", "smouldering materials" or some such. I found this a lot when the Fire service could not really determine a cause with any degree of certainty.

(off topic but I'll stick my oar in anyway. I've met many many Muslims and found them to be the most gentle, unassuming generous people you could ever come across )
I think it's not so much the religious, but that Notre Dame is an icon of Frenchness and is by far the most visited item in Paris.
Had a secular edifice like the Eiffel Tower collapsed, I suspect the outpouring of French national grief would have been similar.
 

Tribble

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The Vikings, under the semi-legendary Ragnar Lodbruk, occupied several major towns in Gaul/Francia, including Paris.
Normandy basically became a Viking enclave and it's not hard to see some Viking heritage there even today.
They obviously brought their Norse religion with them. The evidence is though that the Vikings rapidly adopted Christianity and became Frankified in terms of language and culture.
Notre Dame was already an established Christian site by the time Ragnar and his Viking mates showed up in the 800s and they only stayed around long enough to loot the place and collect a payoff. I doubt they had time to build any significant shrine to their deities, and not on the Notre Dame site.

Mildly interestingly, someone claims the Parisii followed Isis rather than Druidism :
https://gnosticwarrior.com/the-parisii-of-isis.html
And that the ship on the Paris coat of arms is that of Isis :
https://www.parislogue.com/travel-tips/isis-in-paris-the-black-madonna/
(sketchy evidence for these claims)

More likely, the ship motif was inspired by river trade and first appeared in the 1100s.
https://www.unjourdeplusaparis.com/en/paris-insolite/embleme-blason-paris
 
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blessmycottonsocks

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Notre Dame was already an established Christian site by the time Ragnar and his Viking mates showed up in the 800s and they only stayed around long enough to loot the place and collect a payoff. I doubt they had time to build any significant shrine to their deities, and not on the Notre Dame site.

Mildly interestingly, someone claims the Parisii followed Isis rather than Druidism :
https://gnosticwarrior.com/the-parisii-of-isis.html
And that the ship on the Paris coat of arms is that of Isis :
https://www.parislogue.com/travel-tips/isis-in-paris-the-black-madonna/
(sketchy evidence for these claims)

More likely, the ship motif was inspired by river trade and first appeared in the 1100s.
https://www.unjourdeplusaparis.com/en/paris-insolite/embleme-blason-paris
Agreed. The temple to Jupiter had long since been abandoned before Notre Dame was built and, apart from a few artefacts, shrine figures and such like, the evidence of the Norse religion persisting in Francia is scant.
Despite William the Conqueror being sometimes described as the last Viking, his family had adopted Christianity at least two generations before the Norman invasion.
The rapidity with which the Vikings in Normandy abandoned their old Norse culture and language is quite remarkable. Possibly down to the fact that children are brought up and influenced primarily by their mothers.
 

Naughty_Felid

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I do find it something of a paradox that there is such an outpouring of grief by the religious over what is essentially a building. Ok a nice old building (although the spire was 19th century) and I like nice old buildings, but still.
Having attended the scene of hundreds of fires in buildings, both large and small, I suspect the precise cause will never be known, due to the extent of destruction. Saying this, I'm sure there will be pressure on the Authorities to come up with a definitive explanation which will no doubt involve "discarded smoking materials", "smouldering materials" or some such. I found this a lot when the Fire service could not really determine a cause with any degree of certainty.

(off topic but I'll stick my oar in anyway. I've met many many Muslims and found them to be the most gentle, unassuming generous people you could ever come across )
It's because it's such an epic and awe-inspiring building. I'm not Christian but have visited the place several times and I see it like many Cathedrals, not as a place of worship, but as an amazing tribute to what mankind can achieve.
 

ramonmercado

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It's because it's such an epic and awe-inspiring building. I'm not Christian but have visited the place several times and I see it like many Cathedrals, not as a place of worship, but as an amazing tribute to what mankind can achieve.
Have to admit that I found it awe-inspiring as well. I always had a hunch I would like it though.
 

Naughty_Felid

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Agreed. The temple to Jupiter had long since been abandoned before Notre Dame was built and, apart from a few artefacts, shrine figures and such like, the evidence of the Norse religion persisting in Francia is scant.
Despite William the Conqueror being sometimes described as the last Viking, his family had adopted Christianity at least two generations before the Norman invasion.
The rapidity with which the Vikings in Normandy abandoned their old Norse culture and language is quite remarkable. Possibly down to the fact that children are brought up and influenced primarily by their mothers.

Good post.

Was it down to Christianity being the flavour of the month? More people were part of it, it made trade easier? It was considerably more gentle in terms of gaining life after death compared to Nordic beliefs, (dying in battle to get to heaven etc).

I think Christianity was just more adaptable.
 
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Lb8535

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True, when Christianity arrived it was most convenient to adopt it, especially when it arrived attached to a roman emperor.

And I am firm in my belief that the temple of jupiter was built at that spot because it was already considered sacred by association with a previous deity. The romans tended to co-opt the local gods, although I think they made an exception in the case of druidic deities. So the site has a long history of sacred buildings coming and going, and probably not the first fire. I am personally very sorry about the artwork contained in it, I have not visited it and there are no reports about tapestries, paintings, sculptures, mosaics, manuscripts, etc. Just about relics, which are of no interest. And I hope the stonework survived.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Good post.

Was it down to Christianity being the flavour of the month? More people were part of it, it made trade easier? It was considerably more gentle in terms of gaining life after death compared to Nordic beliefs, (dying in battle to get to heaven etc).

I think Christianity was just more adaptable.
It wasn't just about Vikings losing their religion though. They seemed to adopt the entire Frankish culture - language, customs, clothing, appearance, government, fiscal system and religion.

I tend to put this down to the power of motherhood.

Large numbers of fairly swarthy Gallic and Breton women in North West Francia would have found themselves giving birth to blond, blue-eyed little Viking babies. Initially this was down to rape on an industrial scale, but later, due to consentual intermarriage.
Those mothers would have spoken to their babies, sung them songs and educated them in their indigenous languages, rather than any Norse dialect. So, large numbers of Viking infants would grow up to know nothing but Gallic/Frankish/Breton culture.

I can see this effect to a limited degree in my own family!
My grandson is only a quarter French and was born here in the UK.
My wife though, who is his full-time child-minder, talks to him exclusively in French and sings him French nursery rhymes*
So he's probably likely to grow up as a bilingual and a rather more cosmopolitan lad than your typical Sarf Engerlish geezer.

* It was cute at first, but Pomme de Reinette et Pomme d'api is driving me mad.


 

Frideswide

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My grandparents sang to me about a king, possibly Dagobert et le gran saint Eloi liu-dit "Oh mon Roi, votre majeste est mal culotte", "cest vrai" lui-dit the Roi....

but I cannot remember what the king's excuse was! Also apologies for probably execrable transcription :)
 

blessmycottonsocks

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My grandparents sang to me about a king, possibly Dagobert et le gran saint Eloi liu-dit "Oh mon Roi, votre majeste est mal culotte", "cest vrai" lui-dit the Roi....

but I cannot remember what the king's excuse was! Also apologies for probably execrable transcription :)
I'll ask my wife about that one. Can't disturb her now though, because she's watching Vera!
 

Tribble

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"Je vais la remettre à l'endroit."
wonderful! :oldm:I know that in theory I could have looked it up during the past half century but somehow... one doesn't, and the happiness of a (re)found treasure is not to be underestimated.

I wonder if it was used in teaching them french during the 1910s? Perhaps a standard school exercise?

They were classicists rather than modern languages. My Nain was also fluent in mediaeval french for example :)
 

OneWingedBird

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My wife Samantha and I are honorary Muslims.

She's on her knees religiously, five times a day, and I do my best, too--although at my age I often struggle to get up again.

On the dietary prohibitions, I confess, we have had less success. I don't mind revealing that I'm pretty hot in the kitchen and Sam has an insatiable appetite. With the best will in the world, we both know that she has only to catch a whiff of my tenderloin before she's begging for a taste.
There's a long tradition of it.

I knew a muslim couple who in the right company will admit to having red wine and choritzo stashed under the bed.
 

AnonyJoolz

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In 'Mainstream News' I just posted this, people have been attacked in church in Sri Lanka:

Targetted attacks today when churches were full with people attending Easter Sunday services, more than a hundred people are feared dead.

From https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-casualties-churches-hotels-targeted-easter/ :

"More than 150 people are feared dead and hundreds injured after several explosions at hotels and churches as worshippers attended Easter services.
At least six blasts have been reported, three at hotels and three at churches, with the first taking place at St Anthony's Church in Colombo and St Sebastian's in the town of Negombo just outside the capital. Shortly after those blasts were reported, police confirmed three hotels in the capital had also been hit, along with a church in the town of Batticalao, in the east of the country."


Given the recent fevered speculation with regard to the fire at Notre Dame catherdral in Paris, this is entirely in another category and is a reminder what real terrorism targetting buildings where Christian gather is like.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Edited version with red circle of doom added:

French News Server Libération has picked this up. This article (in French) has a detailed analysis of the webcam footage. They claim that the two "flashes" or "sparks" could be merely reflections, but they have passed the video onto the authorities for further investigation:

https://www.liberation.fr/checknews...e-toit-de-notre-dame-avant-l-incendie_1722145

PS. To Ramon, no, I don't like Vera.
 

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Radio4's Bells on Sunday today is a 2013 recording from Notre Dame.

Marie
Emmanuel
Gabriel
Anne-Geneviève
Denis
Marcel, Etienne
Benoît-Joseph
Maurice
Jean-Marie
 
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