ISIS - IRAQ - SYRIA - IRAN: Does A New War Bloom?

[Jonfairway]

Lets just take a few moments to ponder this...

The US pull out ... years of money spent.... oooo sorry millions of dollars made by a few....

and then in what amounts to a few days IRAQ is taken by ISIS... apparently well organised, well funded, and doing what the US took years not to finish off....

and now we are talking about new military action needed...

so who is funding ISIS , Syria ? Iran ? New Guns, New Tech, and certain timings of attacks and bombings that look , well odd....

are we to think... Syria is behind this ? Assad maybe

didnt get to barge into Syria..... maybe a new excuse ?

 

[ramonmercado]

ISIS have caused mayhem in Syria as well. They are very much enemies of Syria and Iran.

 

[Jonfairway]

ISIS have caused mayhem in Syria as well. They are very much enemies of Syria and Iran.

okee dokeee

so they are enemies of Iran, Syria, the US, Iraq

who has financed them ?
who has them so organised they have taken over so quickly ?

 

[ramonmercado]

ISIS have caused mayhem in Syria as well. They are very much enemies of Syria and Iran.

okee dokeee

so they are enemies of Iran, Syria, the US, Iraq

who has financed them ?
who has them so organised they have taken over so quickly ?

Indeed, why did 30,000 Iraqi troops break and flee from less than a thousand ISIS fighters. Likely financed originally by the Saudis and other Gulf States. Now out of control and seriously into blow-back territory.

As well as supplies and arms, ISIS have seized at least $500 million dollars in gold and currency. That will keep them going for a while.

They don't have the numbers to hold cities and advance much further. Winkling them out of the cties will be difficult.

 

[Jonfairway]

Indeed, why did 30,000 Iraqi troops break and flee from less than a thousand ISIS fighters. Likely financed originally by the Saudis and other Gulf States. Now out of control and seriously into blow-back territory.

As well as supplies and arms, ISIS have seized at least $500 million dollars in gold and currency. That will keep them going for a while.

They don't have the numbers to hold cities and advance much further. Winkling them out of the cties will be difficult.

Having $500 million in loose change is one thing

purchasing lots of new tech and vehicles and getting them to their destination requires planning, and involvement of a big party,

The Tech they have is new ? not old Saudi stuff ?

Is it in the Iraqis interests to run away ?

maybe they want some one to step in ?
maybe they have been told to runaway so someone can step in
maybe the stepping in people want an excuse to step in

 

[Mythopoeika]

It's a good point. ISIS do look well funded. All of their clothes and equipment look new.
So, you're right...someone with a lot of dosh is funding them.

Mind you...the clothes they are wearing are pretty much a uniform, which makes them easy to spot.

And therefore, easier to fight!

As for the Iraqi troops...fecking useless. What a bunch of drips. None of us in the outside world should lift a finger to help - we have done all we could and got ourselves into serious debt. The Iraqis have to sort this out themselves.

 

[tastyintestines]

They are the 21st century French. sad

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

They are the 21st century French. sad

Hope not, after their revolution the French went a long way towards taking over the World. If it hadn't been for their aversion to underwear and the Moscow winter, we might all be parlaying Français and not just some Canadians. :lol:

 

[Quake42]

The funding is from Saudi and Qatar and no doubt a little from Western Islamists.

The hardware will I assume have been acquired during the Syrian civil war.

The Iraqi army is clearly ineffective and indisciplined, not to mention terrified given the treatment of their comrades who fall into ISIS's hands.

No conspiracy here as far as I can see, but a nightmare situation for the Middle East.

 

[ramonmercado]

Strange bedfellows: Iran, US to cooperate against Sunni jihadists in Iraq?

In light of recent military gains by a ‘too-extreme-for-Al-Qaeda’ jihadi group in Iraq, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has said Tehran may consider cooperating with Washington to battle the extremist threat.

"We have said that all countries must unite in combating terrorism. But right now regarding Iraq we have not seen the Americans taking a decision yet," Rouhani said at a press conference on Saturday.

Asked if Tehran would work with its old adversary the United States in tackling advances by Sunni insurgents in Iraq, he replied, "We can think about if we see America starts confronting the terrorist groups in Iraq or elsewhere."

Rouhani denied previous reports that Iran had already sent troops into Iraq to aid government forces, saying any such move would be contingent on Baghdad’s approval.

"No specific request has been put forward, but we are prepared to help – within the frameworks of international regulations – if there is a request," he said.

Iran has already sent a Major General from the Revolutionary Guard to meet with leaders in the Iraqi capital. ...
http://rt.com/news/165924-iran-us-cooperate-iraq/

 

[OneWingedBird]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

This is beyond warped considering where that philosophy brought us to last time with Iran/Iraq.

 

[ramonmercado]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

This is beyond warped considering where that philosophy brought us to last time with Iran/Iraq.

In this case though ISIS are enemy of ALL Civilisations.

 

[ramonmercado]

Maybe they could send them to Iraq.

Pentagon spent millions on boats that were never delivered to landlocked Afghanistan

One of the patrol boats purchased. (Courtesy of the Office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction)

Despite being billed a “top priority” for American efforts in Afghanistan, a new government watchdog report found that the United States spent more than $3 million obtaining eight patrol boats that were never used.

Authored by the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction, the report stated the purchases were made back in 2010, but about four years later the boats are still sitting unused in a Virginia warehouse.

What’s more, the report is raising questions about why the boats were needed in the first place. After all, Afghanistan is a landlocked country, with no coastline or prominent waters to speak of.

According to the Washington Post, military officials said the boats were originally intended desired as a way to move government supplies along the Amu Darya River near the border of Uzbekistan, as well as to “deter smuggling and illegal entry into Afghanistan.”

Additionally, the cost of each boat turned out to be about $375,000 – far more than the $50,000 they usually sell for in the US. As noted by Fox News, the SIGAR report also raised concerns over how the boats would be repaired, since the nearest port would have been 1,000 miles away in Pakistan. ...
http://rt.com/usa/165792-pentagon-spent ... ghanistan/

 

[Cochise]

Hope not, after their revolution the French went a long way towards taking over the World. If it hadn't been for their aversion to underwear and the Moscow winter, we might all be parlaying Français and not just some Canadians. :lol:

Their aversion to underwear? Please do tell

 

[Jonfairway]

The funding is from Saudi and Qatar and no doubt a little from Western Islamists.

who... who's on whose side here....

US train Iraqi army for years .... wow are the US at odds with Saudi ? or are we talking Bin whats his name folk ?

The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), now threatening Baghdad, was funded for years by wealthy donors in Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi ...

fantastic... so who's pulling their strings ?

mega

Or are we saying they WERE funding them and now they have gone rogue ?

my my how things repeat

US train "Bin" and his team to fight Russians then end up enemy
US allies fund ISIS who turn on US

of course

there could be some underlying conspiracy here LOL

 

[Quake42]

Or are we saying they WERE funding them and now they have gone rogue ?

No. I don't think anyone's suggesting this.

If anything I think the current disastrous situation is down to an unrealistic optimism on the part of the US and their allies. There was a genuine belief that a post-Saddam Iraq would transform into a stable democracy.

 

[Cochise]

It is not a new war, is it ?

It is a war that has gone on for a thousand years or more between Muslim sects, which the West have irresponsibly re-ignited.

As I have pointed out previously, our current crop of Western politicians are so completely ignorant of history that they are quite unaware of the major themes that have motivated people for centuries. Democracy is a minor player compared to some of the other underlying themes to do with religion, movement/conflict of peoples, and clash of cultures. We remind me of the 13th century Chinese who wrote off the Mongols as ignorant powerless barbarians.

 

[Quake42]

As I have pointed out previously, our current crop of Western politicians are so completely ignorant of history that they are quite unaware of the major themes that have motivated people for centuries.

I don't think it's ignorance. I think they genuinely believe that religious and ethnic conflict will melt away once people have democracy. It's a very whiggish view of history but it's still popular across the political spectrum

 

[Jonfairway]

yeah I get the "this has been happening for centurys"

what i was getting at is

it takes a lot of dosh to have a war.... a lot..
someone has to either accept dosh and provide infrastructure and transport and arms, ammunition to these people or fund all this themselves..

this

and correct me if i am talking rubbish

this can't be hidden completely

suggestions have been made, they are funded by Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait

others have suggested Syria

bottom line, you can't take over a country through force without funding,
without weapons...

They don't appear to poorly funded...
they seem well organised..

I can't accept these are a rag tag outfit without someone big behind the scenes..

and why would an Iraq army that has superior weapons and intelligence just fold up and run ?

 

[Quake42]

and why would an Iraq army that has superior weapons and intelligence just fold up and run ?

They're indisciplined, they're frightened, they don't feel especially committed to Iraq as a nation. It's not the first time soldiers have run away en masse even when they appear to have the numerical strength - look at the rapid retreat of the invaders during the Six Day War. You certainly don't need a conspiracy to explain this.

someone has to either accept dosh and provide infrastructure and transport and arms, ammunition to these people or fund all this themselves..

this

and correct me if i am talking rubbish

this can't be hidden completely

I don't think it has been. There's a good article here on ISIS's funding:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... alth-power

The group has been in charge of Syrian oilwells for some time now, plus there is plunder from the towns which have been overrrun etc. Not to mention Saudi/Qatari money and funds laundered through Islamic "charities" in the West.

 

[Jonfairway]

The group has been in charge of Syrian oilwells for some time now, plus there is plunder from the towns which have been overrrun etc. Not to mention Saudi/Qatari money and funds laundered through Islamic "charities" in the West.

A terrorist organization is in charge of OIL wells and is selling to whom ?

Saudi and Qatar are allies of US ?

i'm sorry i,m failing to grasp how a terrorist group can find it so easy to trade both in OIL and Weapons ?

its not like they have a government, they don't manufacture the things, Oil has to be shipped to a customer... then paid for? piped out.... through ??? whom ?
driven out by ? what route is it going ?

if you use ammunition it has to be replaced, where is the visible supply chain ?

 

[Jonfairway]

Oil revenues

Ediboglu said: “$800 million worth of oil that ISIS obtained from regions it occupied this year [the Rumeilan oil fields in northern Syria — and most recently Mosul] is being sold in Turkey. They have laid pipes from villages near the Turkish border at Hatay. Similar pipes exist also at [the Turkish border regions of] Kilis, Urfa and Gaziantep. They transfer the oil to Turkey and parlay it into cash. They take the oil from the refineries at zero cost. Using primitive means, they refine the oil in areas close to the Turkish border and then sell it via Turkey. This is worth $800 million.”

Is Turkish intelligence helping fighters?

Ediboglu further stated: “Fighters from Europe, Russia, Asian countries and Chechnya are going in large numbers both to Syria and Iraq, crossing from Turkish territory. There is information that at least 1,000 Turkish nationals are helping those foreign fighters sneak into Syria and Iraq to join ISIS. The National Intelligence Organization (MIT) is allegedly involved. None of this can be happening without MIT’s knowledge.”

Taraf’s earlier report on diesel smuggling

Last Aug. 20, Taraf carried a report headlined “Smugglers riding on a billion dollars.” It reported that Turkish soldiers clashed with and repelled hundreds of horse riders and thousands of foot smugglers at the Syrian border on a daily basis. It pointed out that the biggest fight between the [Syrian Kurdish] People's Protection Units (YPG) and the al-Qaeda-linked Jabhat al-Nusra in Rojava [northern Syria] was over the revenues from the sale of the region’s petroleum products to Turkey.

The report noted that some 2,000 oil wells exist in the Rumeilan region, which lies on the other side of the border stretching between [Turkey’s] districts of Cizre in Sirnak province and Nusaybin in Mardin province. “The region’s oil is being smuggled to Turkey. The daily amount of smuggled diesel fuel has reached 1,500 tons, which corresponds to 3.5% of Turkey’s consumption,” it added.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/busines ... -oil.html##ixzz34tmJ8Jy2

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/busines ... -oil.html#

maybe I am missing things again here...

1. Turkey are part of Nato ?
2. Cut off the money supply and take back Oil ?
3. How did anyone leave them with this for any length of time ?

if .... it has been GOING ON for a long time

why ?

why let it happen ?

or

someone buys cheap oil from them
and sells them expensive weapons
over and over... whilst making lots of Money for themselves...

after a while the Terrorist state needs to be PUT DOWN

and the makers of the Money ... MAKE lots more....



"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them"

 

[Quake42]

1. Turkey are part of Nato ?
2. Cut off the money supply and take back Oil ?
3. How did anyone leave them with this for any length of time ?

1. Turkey is a member of NATO, but it elected an Islamist-lite government a little while ago and its traditional secular character is seriously under threat. There are rumours that Turkey has been supporting Al-Nusra, another group of Islamic headbangers, in Syria although even Al-Nusra isn't as toxic as ISIS.
2. Yes I agree this would make sense but it would involve military action in Syria.
3. It went in the "too difficult" box I expect and no doubt there was also a reluctance to upset Saudi and Qatar.

 

[Cochise]

As I have pointed out previously, our current crop of Western politicians are so completely ignorant of history that they are quite unaware of the major themes that have motivated people for centuries.

I don't think it's ignorance. I think they genuinely believe that religious and ethnic conflict will melt away once people have democracy. It's a very whiggish view of history but it's still popular across the political spectrum

It's a very ignorant view of history, frankly. For a start genuine democracies are extremely rare. Secondly they can only exist where there is _first_ a demos - a group of people with a basically shared sense of identity. In the US, that demos came about through genocide and was maintained by some fairly illiberal policies that were strenuously applied up until the 50's - 60's.

I'm not trying to make out that the US is particularly evil - for one thing the genocide started way before the US even existed. I'm pointing out that the few fragile democracies the world has produced have their roots in much spilling of blood, and survived because their leaders were ruthless in protecting the procedures established through that conflict and waste.

Our current politicians seem to imagine that democracies are somehow magically self sustaining even when you undermine the checks and balances that keep them from degenerating in civil war, when you neglect and misuse the armed forces that prevent people with different ideas on the way the world should be run from destroying them, or when you actively progress the destruction of the demos by encouraging the development within it of rival cultures with incompatible ideologies.

A democracy cannot work in a country that has too many mutually exclusive views that are strongly held. Look at the way it has had to be periodically suspended in Northern Ireland, for example. The number of democracies in the world peaked in the latter half of the 20th century - in another half-century they may be an endangered species.

 

[Quake42]

I agree with pretty much all of that, but the problem is as I say a whiggish, progressive view of history. Indeed it wasn't so long ago that the "End of History" was being proclaimed, with the whole globe moving seamlessly to liberal democracy and broadly free market economic systems.

It took some years after the collapse of communism for this optimism to fade and I don't think anyone saw the rise of religious extremism which does after all seem anachronistic in the modern era.

For democracy to work you need certain other things in place:

* Rule of law
* An educated or at least literate population
* For the populace to identify primarily with the nation state and not with their particular tribe/ethnic group/religious sect
* An acceptance amongst those elected that they will give up power in the event of an election going against them

Middle Easten and African countries in particular are often missing some or all of these with the result that democracy fails miserably and dissolves into corruption at best and civil war at worst. We would be better off promoting education and rule of law rather than insisting on a rush to the ballot box.

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

And let's not forget how income inequality screws the pooch when it comes to democracy.

Economic Inequality and Democratic Political Engagement

Abstract:

What effect, if any, does the extent of economic inequality in a country have upon the political engagement of its citizens? This study examines this question using data from multiple cross-national surveys of the advanced industrial democracies. It tests the theory that greater inequality increases the relative power of the wealthy to shape politics in their own favor against rival arguments that focus on the effects of inequality on citizens' objective interests or the resources they have available for political engagement. The analysis demonstrates that higher levels of income inequality powerfully depress political interest, the frequency of political discussion, and participation in elections among all but the most affluent citizens, providing compelling evidence that greater economic inequality yields greater political inequality.

 

[Quake42]

Indeed, I almost mentioned inequality in my post but didn't because the reality is that democracy has and continued to function in countries which exhibit high levels of inequality in wealth and income. I agree inequality poses a major threat to democracy though.

 

[kamalktk]

Maybe these fanatics will realize they names themselves after a pagan goddess.

 

[Jonfairway]

and maybe they didnt !!

do the naming bit lol

anyway

if i am reading this right...

states that do not fulfill the rules/criteria mentioned are not going to ever have a stable political democracy..

are always going to have civil wars

and dare i say it
terrorists of some sort

and then

like i said....

http://www.therichest.com/expensive-lif ... the-world/

are any of these countries not part of the world stage that be-cries terrorism ?

If the world stage didnt supply these ,,, i will refer to them as Children... with weapons...

a lot of this would be
1. easy to contain
2. unlikely to happen on grand scales like this ISIS thing...

you cant solve todays problems with the same mindset that created them..

more guns around the bad areas, with guns in the bad areas does not stop the shooting...

look at it this way

If a well armed group took control of Anglesea and the Powerstation there and said from now one WE are going to sell the power this station makes and buy more weapons and fortify the island as a terrorist state

what would happen ????

 

[Jonfairway]

oh yeah i forgot

shouldn't there be an Inventory of where all these weapons go to
i,m talking rocket launchers, tanks, armoured cars etc...

and an overseeing body that monitors the sales of these weapons ?

just a thought.....

Then if Terrorists wanted weapons other than nail bombs, hand guns.. easy to conceal stuff

they would have to Manufacture them ?
build factorys
be visible