ISIS - IRAQ - SYRIA - IRAN: Does A New War Bloom?

[ramonmercado]

Oh dear!

NAME CHECK

ENGLAND: The owner of a Malvern boutique called Isis has been left astonished at terrorist slurs.

Jill Campbell now has to assure people the shop is not linked to Islamic State fanatics Isis, after rumours started on social media. She and her staff have been subject to “ridiculous and ill-advised” comments from passers-by linking the shop with the terrorist group behind the beheading of journalists and aid-workers.

Campbell told Worcester News: “This is happening thousands of miles away, and yet my business in Malvern is being targeted, it’s bizarre. I can’t believe I have to do this, but I want to make it clear I do not in any way, nor does this business, have any affiliation with, or support for, this vile terrorist group in the Middle East.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/quir ... 87728.html

 

[OneWingedBird]

Your link is to a different story.

If I'm not mistaken, there's a swingers club in Leeds called Isis... I guess they will be next. Maybe the mob can attack while a few paediatricians are holed up in there. :lol:

 

[ramonmercado]

Your link is to a different story.

If I'm not mistaken, there's a swingers club in Leeds called Isis... I guess they will be next. Maybe the mob can attack while a few paediatricians are holed up in there. :lol:

All of the Quirky World stories come at a link which includes the the title of the first of the days stories.

 

[Analogue Boy]

If I was that dog off of Downtown, I'd be worried what with the new series starting.

 

[GNC]

I thought they weren't called ISIS anymore?

 

[Jonfairway]

They captured many tanks in Iraq and a smaller number in Syria.

would appear so

they also seem to have purchased some

ISIS added new Russian T55 tanks to previous ones that they acquired from the Syrian opposition before entering Mosul and Tikrit in Iraq. It is known that ISIS has 30 of these tanks

http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2014/ ... tory-grows


New !

 

[ramonmercado]

They captured many tanks in Iraq and a smaller number in Syria.

would appear so

they also seem to have purchased some

ISIS added new Russian T55 tanks to previous ones that they acquired from the Syrian opposition before entering Mosul and Tikrit in Iraq. It is known that ISIS has 30 of these tanks

http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2014/ ... tory-grows


New !

Brilliant!

Washington is going to supply arms to the FSA which will end up in the hands of ISIS.

And more news:

New intelligence has emerged warning Washington that its upcoming confrontation with the Islamic State may leave it blind to a more sinister and direct threat from a much lesser known terrorist group that has arisen from the ashes of the Syrian war.

Very little information is being released at the moment by anyone within American intelligence circles, but the group calling itself Khorasan is said by officials to have concrete plans for striking targets in the United States and Europe as a chosen modus operandi – more so than the Islamic State (IS), formerly known as ISIS.

The first ever mention of the group occurred on Thursday at an intelligence gathering in Washington DC, when National Intelligence Director James Clapper admitted that “in terms of threat to the homeland, Khorasan may pose as much of a danger as the Islamic State.”

According to the New York Times, some US officials have gone as far as saying that, while the Islamic State is undoubtedly more prominent in its show of force in the Middle East, it is Khorasan who's intent on oversees campaigns in a way Al Qaeda usually is.

In this sense, the US air strike campaign and the coming actions by the anti-IS coalition might just be what coaxes the IS into larger-scale attacks on American and European soil – what Khorasan is essentially all about. ...

http://rt.com/usa/189448-khorasan-terro ... sis-syria/

 

[Jonfairway]

Saudi sold them 30 x T55 tanks

Tanks need a supply line, fuel, shells etc...

one would assume these items especially shells are being provided as well

excuse to invade Syria properly ? to starve the rebels of supplies ?

then one has to ask..... wasnt this on the cards a while back and was not done...

 

[Quake42]

It feels a bit as thought WWIII has already started. Lots of small conflicts which risk coalescing into one. Islam vs the rest of the world.

Grim, grim, grim.

 

[ramonmercado]

Saudi sold them 30 x T55 tanks

Tanks need a supply line, fuel, shells etc...

one would assume these items especially shells are being provided as well

excuse to invade Syria properly ? to starve the rebels of supplies ?

then one has to ask..... wasnt this on the cards a while back and was not done...

Why not invade Saudi Arabia?

A regime that has no support outside of the thousands strong royal family and their mercenaries.

Funny that the absolute monarch dictators in the Gulf are never under threat of democracy being imposed from the West.

 

[Jonfairway]

Funny that the absolute monarch dictators in the Gulf are never under threat of democracy being imposed from the West.

yeah funny that !!!

nothing to do with Money surely..... or debt

 

[Jonfairway]

It feels a bit as thought WWIII has already started. Lots of small conflicts which risk coalescing into one. Islam vs the rest of the world.

Grim, grim, grim.

Yup

 

[Quake42]

Why not invade Saudi Arabia?

I suspect the answer is because whatever replaced the Saudi monarchy, vile though it may be, would be many times worse - and much more difficult to buy off.

There isn't really a credible democratic opposition waiting in the wings in the Middle East - other than, perhaps, in Iran. It's dictators or fundamentalists. There isn't a "nice" option.

On a slight tangent, I was on the verge of posting in the "PC Gone Mad" thread on the latest attempts to silence Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who had been invited to give a lecture at Yale. Unlike Brandeis earlier this year Yale thankfully stuck to its guns and allowed her to speak. The full lecture is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcWjbZmBIBo

and it's astonishing that anyone wanted this banned. Anyway, during her speech or possibly in the Q&A afterwards she criticises the West's cosiness with Saudi and has some practical suggestions on how we might ally with reformers and dissidents in the Islamic world. She's a very brave woman and well worth listening to.

 

[ramonmercado]

Why not invade Saudi Arabia?

I suspect the answer is because whatever replaced the Saudi monarchy, vile though it may be, would be many times worse - and much more difficult to buy off.

There isn't really a credible democratic opposition waiting in the wings in the Middle East - other than, perhaps, in Iran. It's dictators or fundamentalists. There isn't a "nice" option.

On a slight tangent, I was on the verge of posting in the "PC Gone Mad" thread on the latest attempts to silence Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who had been invited to give a lecture at Yale. Unlike Brandeis earlier this year Yale thankfully stuck to its guns and allowed her to speak. The full lecture is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcWjbZmBIBo

and it's astonishing that anyone wanted this banned. Anyway, during her speech or possibly in the Q&A afterwards she criticises the West's cosiness with Saudi and has some practical suggestions on how we might ally with reformers and dissidents in the Islamic world. She's a very brave woman and well worth listening to.

Thanks for that link, I'll save it and watch it later.

 

[Quake42]

So a more accurate picture is that we are potentially engaged in conflict with at least one Islamist movement (ISIS), perhaps two

It's a bit wider than that though. We have Boko Haram in Nigeria; the Taliban and other extremist groups in Afghanistan/Pakistan; Al-Shabab in Kenya and Somalia; various violent Islamist groups in South East Asia; and a growing fifth column at home in virtually all Western countries.

You're right that Islam is not monolithic and the Sunni/Shia split is particularly significant and unlikely to be mended any time soon. What I think we are seeing though is conflict on a number of different fronts between *broadly* secular governments and those seeking a totalitarian theocracy. It is a huge clash of ideologies and I don't think it can be dismissed as unrelated regional disputes.

 

[Quake42]

Things have moved quite quickly over the last 24 hours. Obama and Cameron have both made it pretty clear that they see IS, Al-Shabab, Boko Haram etc as part and parcel of the same problem. Parliament is being recalled tomorrow to authorise British airstrikes on IS positions in Iraq. A concerted effort is being made to bring Iran in from the cold.

As I say, I think WWIII has already started.

The next step will be action against the death cult in the West. Anjem Choudary was arrested thos morning to general acclaim.

 

[Quake42]

OK, Iraq is a sovereign nation and has appealed for help

Well I think that's the point. A sovereign nation is entitled to ask for an receive military help to combat a threat within its borders. No legal issue with Western powers responding to the Iraqi government's request for assistance. Syria would be trickier and after the demonisation of Assad it is going to be difficult for the US and UK to suddenly treat him as a partner. However I am sure some sort of fudge will be managed.

Yeah. well I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the yawning chasm that usually exists between what politicians say and they actually do about it.

Granted, but to my knowledge this is the first time that a major world leader has acknowledged the link between these Islamist movements in such terms.

Chemical weapons use is a bad thing, but why is it any worse then being blown apart or burned alive by conventional weaponry

Well they are prohibited by international law and conventional ordnance is nor. You might not agree with it, but that is the difference. Of course there's a question as to who was actually responsible for the chemical attacks, which is discussed at length in another thread.

but is ISIS a "direct threat" to Britain? Really?

The death cult of which ISIS is the most visible example is most certainly a threat to Britain which is why any military action overseas must be accompanied by domestic policies which curb the spread of this poison. The arrest of Choudary is a good start.

 

[Jonfairway]

As I say, I think WWIII has already started.

I Agree

Had to happen sometime
lets be honest with ourselves

its in our nature

 

[Quake42]

Unfortunately I don't have time this afternoon to go through all the points you made in detail so I'll just say a few words.

* There is quite clearly a link between extremist Islamist movements around the world. Obama and others have now acknowledged this rather than pretending they were rooted in local political or tribal issues. This is significant regardless of whether it results in immediate action against say Boko Haram or not.
* The difference with IS to previous terrorist groups is the establishment of a caliphate. This has huge significance to Muslims around the world including the West and signals a step change in the strategy of such groups and increases the risk to the UK and other Western countries.
* I use the term death cult advisedly. The supporters of IS and other extremist Salafi groups are quite clear: "You love life, we love death". The salacious pleasure they take in sawing off a helpless man's head with a blunt knife, or crucifying children and beheading families, is way beyond the atrocities which are sadly seen in all wars. We are facing a deeply evil group and we need to face up to that and not hide behind the usual BBC/Guardian cultural relativist drivel.
* If you don't think Choudary's arrest is connected to the broader international situation and signals that patience with hate preachers may be running out I think you're kidding youself.

 

[Quake42]

I am not claiming formal affiliations between these groups. That's not how terrorism works these days. It's much more of a franchise operation. The point is that they have a common philosphy and a common objective. The establishment of a caliphate to rule "Muslim lands" - which includes the Iberian pensinula and Southern France - followed by war against the rest of the world. Dar al Islam vs Dar al Harb. And God help anyone who doesn't fit into their blinkered view of who constitutes a real Muslim. The ideology is totalitarian. A boot stamping on a human face forever.

The caliphate has a resonance for Muslims that some LGB activists holding a party on some Australian island does not. It is irrelevant whataboutery as is your comment about moustaches.

There have plenty of other "we love death, we love martyrdom" etc etc pronouncements from these groups. It's quite wrong to say it was a one-off.

Anyway. It is clear we are not going to agree on the precise nature of IS and its relationship with Salafism more widely. Rather than analysing whether one gang of deranged fanatics is sufficiently distinct from another, I'll ask you what you would do about the genocide in the Levant. Should we just let Christians, Yazidi, Kurds and Shia be butchered in their thousands? Or should we take action? If so, what?

 

[ramonmercado]

BH have ambitions beyond Nigeriaí and also operate in the Cameroons. Whether or not they really seek to establish a West African Caliphate is debatable at this stage as they lack the resources to open war on other fronts.

Theres a thread on BH with stories going back to 2009 in the Religion Forum.

Nigeria is an exporter of oil but BH could not hope to subjugate the christian population of Nigeria. 50% of the population is muslim, 48% christian. Sharia "law" ioperates in 12 northern muslim states, any attempt to introduce it nationwide would result in a reak civil war with a split between the christian south and the muslim north.

As the oil is mainly located in the south, such a split would actually suit southern politicians.

Which brings us to the ease with which BH operates in Nigeria. Are the army totally incompetent? Are military plans and movements being fed to BH?

I,m not suggesting that BH were invented as a false flag operation but it is possible that they are being used by powerful political forces in Nigeria.

As for ISIS - they wouldn,t exist as a force if it wasn,t for the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the smashing of the secular state.

Sadly the west have a bad record not just in Iraq but also in Libya where we now have a another failed state where varying shades of fundies vie with each other for state power.

The other shoe dropped for ISIS in Syria when the US decided that yet another secular state had to be destabilised and smashed. To what end? In whose interests?

While the US \ UK may not have created ISISí, attempts to create democracy in secular dictatorships certainly aided their growth into a mass organisation.

Far woorse religious dictatorships exist in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states yet they are immune to even criticism let alone intervention from the US led coalitions. Yet it is known that these statesí are the source of funding for ISIS and other Jihadists.

I fear mission creep will take place in this latest intervention against ISIS.

Maybe some lunatic in the Pentagon will decide to destabilise Jordan even though this secular dictatorship has long been an ally of the West.

 

[ramonmercado]

Kurdish Socialist Esen Uslu reflects on the situation of Syrian refugees in Turkey as well as giving historical context.

The US has begun its bombing campaign in Syria

When I started writing this article I was going to focus on both the city of Kobanê in northern Syria, because of the attacks carried out by Islamic State gangs surrounding the enclave, and also the influx of refugees into Turkey, who promptly suffered the time-honoured treatment meted out to Kurds by the state since time immemorial.

I was going to explain that Kobanê (or Ain al-Arab - ‘Spring of the Arabs’) is the linchpin of Rojava, or western Kurdistan, and it will be the fulcrum around which the coming battles will be fought. I was in no doubt that the Kurdish freedom movement would prevail in the end, since it represents the only organised modern force in the battle zone with the will to win, and the organisation to maintain strict military discipline under extremely hard conditions.

I was going to inform Weekly Worker readers that, despite the major powers’ hesitancy to act against the IS, the Kurdish freedom movement would be likely to come out on top, albeit at the cost of terrible suffering and many lives, unless there was a major improvement in IS tactics and determination.

I had started to write along those lines when news broke of the US-led air strikes against IS targets in Syria. None of the sources I checked the day before even hinted that such an operation was on the cards. Of course, the US ongoing coalition-building exercise in Syria had been well recorded, but the timing of such a strike just before a major international gathering at the UN caught me by surprise. ..

http://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1027/k ... -in-limbo/

 

[Mythopoeika]

I fear mission creep will take place in this latest intervention against ISIS.

We're well into mission creep from the last wars we had in the Middle East.
Over time, we will have problems with recruiting military personnel and paying for it all.

Expect taxes to rise.

 

[Quake42]

I agree with most of what ramon says, except that I wouldn't overstate the influence of the West on the genesis of these groups. They were growing well worldwide back in the late 80s and early 90s and have cropped up wherever there is a significant Muslim population.

I do think there was extraordinary naivety about the likely outcome of the Arab Spring. Absent much more education and a change in cultural attitudes the choice in those countries is likely to be between secular dictatorship and fundamentalist theocracy.

Quote:
There have plenty of other "we love death, we love martyrdom" etc etc pronouncements from these groups. It's quite wrong to say it was a one-off.


Kindly list them.

Mohammed Siddique Khan (7/7 bomber)
Hamas
Hezbollah
Al-Qaeda
At least one Australian imam
Every other imam who glorifies martyrdom

It's only irrelevant "whataboutery" if you assume that allMuslims, everywhere in the world, think the same way and support ISIS.

I don't believe this, and I never said it. What I said was that the caliphate has a special resonance to Muslims and that IS is capitalising on this in the way that previous groups could not.

I think you may be relying on some notion of the Middle Ages repeating itself e.g., "Moorish Spain."

I'm not relying on "a notion". Reclaiming "Al-Andalus" has been a goal of jihadists for some time. Here's IS on it:

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/ ... andalucia/

Because in their eyes any territory that was once Islamic remains so.

I put it to you that you have simply imagined this bit.

Not at all. It is for Dar-al-Islam (Muslim majority countries) to make war on Dar-al Harb ("house of war" ie the rest of us". This is fairly standard Islamist rhetoric.

You spoke of the pernicious influence of 'cultural relativism' ... that concept cuts both ways. Why are we not tackling Saudi Arabia?

Why? Because they are an oil-rich nation we wish to trade with and, vile though their theocracy is, they are sufficiently corrupt that the filthy kufr can buy them off. That's the reality. That, and the fear that whatever replaced the House of Saud would be even more extreme. You'll get no argument from me on the wickedness of the Saudi regime. This is, however, more whataboutery. The fact that we have failed to challenge Saudi is not a reason to allow IS to commit genocide,

 

[Mythopoeika]

My point was that you seem to be picking and choosing which set of Muslims you regard as participants in your predicted third world war and which to leave out.

Perhaps there are certain categories of Muslim that you could leave out of the equation.
Gay Muslims? Secular Muslims? Sufi Muslims? Rare though they might be...Muslims who only follow all the good bits of the Koran?
Sufis, eh? You hardly ever hear anything bad about them, but all the other Muslims pick on them.

 

[ramonmercado]

I must disagree with one of Quakes choices of organisations who love death: Hezbollah.

They don,t do the suicide bombing.

Rather I would say they are a National Liberation Movement who are of an Islamist Character but differ crucially in many aspects from typical Islamists.

They have no problem working with other political parties in Lebanon and do not wish to force the 40%í of the Lebanese population who are Christian to live under the shariah.

In 2006 when Israel invaded, Christian militias joined with Hezbollah in the resistance. Far from loving death the Hezbollah high command ordered those holding positions above ground to retreat becvause of the casualties they were suffering. The soldiers, both muslim and christian refused and the IDF never broke through their lines.

Hezbollah has also sent thousands of its members to defend Assads secular regime and they saved the lives of many christians.

When Pope Benedict visited Lebanon Hezbollah wecomed him (which is more than I would have done) while sunnis were trying to stir up anti-christian sentiment.

So I would say Hezbollah are different. I don,t agree with their religion or their political programme but they are not a death cult.

Given the manner in which both BH and ISIS massacre people, even other muslims, I think they are worthy of the description.

Whatever brought about their growth they have to be stopped. But they will best be stopped by moderate muslims and secular muslims.

Assad is not opposing the airstrikes neither is Iraq. But watch for mission creep.

In Nigeria its difficult to see how the West could help other than with equipment and training. Perhaps it could also fund AU military forces (with the Nigerians agreement) from say Ghana, South Africa and Tanzania to guard schools and training colleges.

 

[Quake42]

Garrick92: I'm not going to do your research for you. Google is your friend if you want to find examples of the individuals and groups I mentioned making "we love death, you love life" type statements. I can assure you that they are legion.

As for the rest of your argument, I think we'll have to just agree to disagree. I believe that Islamism poses a major global threat. I also believe that totalitarianism of any stripe should be fought by civilised people everywhere. You do not share those views. As I say I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Sufis, eh? You hardly ever hear anything bad about them, but all the other Muslims pick on them.

See also Alawites who are persecuted in the Middle East and Pakistan. The Muslim Council of Britain writes angry letters to newspapers who even refer to Alawites as being Muslims.

 

[ramonmercado]

Quote:
Sufis, eh? You hardly ever hear anything bad about them, but all the other Muslims pick on them.


See also Alawites who are persecuted in the Middle East and Pakistan. The Muslim Council of Britain writes angry letters to newspapers who even refer to Alawites as being Muslims.
_________________

Same here in Ireland re them and other minority muslim groups.

 

[Quake42]

I must disagree with one of Quakes choices of organisations who love death: Hezbollah.

In fairness Ramon I was quoting from Hezbollah's Secretary General. It wasn't a random choice.

I accept that Hezbollah are different to IS but I wouldn't sugarcoat their views which are pretty reprehensible especially when it comes to Jewish people (not just Israelis).

 

[ramonmercado]

I must disagree with one of Quakes choices of organisations who love death: Hezbollah.

In fairness Ramon I was quoting from Hezbollah's Secretary General. It wasn't a random choice.

I accept that Hezbollah are different to IS but I wouldn't sugarcoat their views which are pretty reprehensible especially when it comes to Jewish people (not just Israelis).

Islam is a religion with dramatic phraseology but then so is christianity.

As I said I don,t share their religion or political programme but the reality of how they operate on the ground is why I have some admiration for them.

I remember a relatively recent speech from a Hezbollah leader which could have been taken as pro death. But what he was saying was that they would give their lives to protect both muslims and christians from the jihadists.