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ISIS - IRAQ - SYRIA - IRAN: Does A New War Bloom?

Mythopoeika said:
Sufis, eh? You hardly ever hear anything bad about them, but all the other Muslims pick on them.
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Ataturk didn't like 'em. Gave 'em a right good hiding from what I remember.

Finished off the Caliphate as well. Sort of a Muslim Luther was Kemal.
 
Cavynaut said:
Mythopoeika said:
Sufis, eh? You hardly ever hear anything bad about them, but all the other Muslims pick on them.
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Ataturk didn't like 'em. Gave 'em a right good hiding from what I remember.

Finished off the Caliphate as well. Sort of a Muslim Luther was Kemal.
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Good lad. Too fond of the raki though. Died of cirrhosis of the liver when he was only 57.
 
She must never be forgotten. Let her death be an inspiration to all of us to combat ignorance, stupidity and all religious power.

Let us also remember that she was an advocate on behalf of detainees prior to ISIS taking over Mosul.

Militants with the Islamic State (IS) group have publicly killed a rights lawyer in the Iraqi city of Mosul after finding her guilty of apostasy in a self-styled Islamic court, the UN said.

The UN Assistance Mission in Iraq said Samira Salih al-Nuaimi was taken from her home on September 17 after allegedly posting messages on Facebook that were critical of the militants' destruction of places of worship in Iraq's second largest city.

The Gulf Centre for Human Rights said Ms al-Nuaimi had worked on detainee rights and poverty.

The extremist IS group seized Mosul in June during its rapid advance across the country's north and west. It has imposed a harsh version of Islamic law in areas under its control in Iraq and Syria.

Ms al-Nuaimi's Facebook page appears to have been removed since her death.

According to the UN Assistance Mission she was tried in a sharia court for apostasy, after which she was tortured for five days before the militants - also known as Isis or Isil - sentenced her to public execution. ...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingne ... 43163.html
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Yes, a true hero. A very, very brave woman.

Back home, breaking news is that police have arrested two menon the M6 on suspicion of terror offences.
 
Well, it appears the Third Iraqi War is going to start today. Given the record of the previous two expect Militant Islam to develop still further.

I seem to recall some daft Yanks saying we'll bomb them back to the dark ages. Great. Well we have, and now we have people fighting back with Dark Ages religion and methodology. But also applying that methodology to ultra-modern means of communication.

When will the West realise you cannot physically force the rest of the world to live the same way as us if they don't want to - and attempting to force them prematurely instead of relying on long term persuasion has the opposite effect. We now have created (or released, amounts to the same thing) a fanatical unprincipled movement with members in most Western countries as well as in their new homeland, and we have not the faintest idea how we are really going to repair the damage.
 
When will the West realise you cannot physically force the rest of the world to live the same way as us if they don't want to
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You're right, but that very easily segues into isolationism and the bigotry of low expectations. I think most Christians and Yazidi in the area would prefer to live in peace and prosperity and not be buried alive by Islamist fanatics. Similarly, why should we condemn 50% of the population of the Muslm worls to live in subjugation?

"Oppressing black people is part of the culture of white South Africans and we should understand and respect that" said nobody, ever. Why is the oppression of women and religious minorities by Muslims different?

It's time we stopped with the cultural cringe and said quite clearly that our values are better than medieval theocracy.

In this case it's a straw man in any event. The Western powers are taking action to prevent genocide and to come to the aid of a friendly government. Both are expressly permitted in the UN Charter and indeed in the first case it is an obligation.
 
Ten seconds on google proved that that was a quote from an isolated maniac, and I told you so.

You then declared that the saying was common among Islamists, so I challenged you tp list examples.
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Google "we love death, you love life" and see what comes up. I can assure you this phrases and similar ones have been used by all the individuals and groups I mentioned.

I never said it was a "specific slogan of Islam" or that Islam itself is a death cult.

When religious belief encourages followers to kill and mutiliate others and to "martyr" themselves by suicide bombing then that religious belief is a death cult. I do not believe and never said that all Muslims subscribe to such beliefs so please do not misrepresent my words.

If that sounds like an unpleasant parting shot, it shouldn't -- I'm just 'getting it off my chest' so I can disengage properly.
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No problem. Consider yourself disengaged.
 
Quake42 said:
When will the West realise you cannot physically force the rest of the world to live the same way as us if they don't want to
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You're right, but that very easily segues into isolationism and the bigotry of low expectations. I think most Christians and Yazidi in the area would prefer to live in peace and prosperity and not be buried alive by Islamist fanatics. Similarly, why should we condemn 50% of the population of the Muslm worls to live in subjugation?

"Oppressing black people is part of the culture of white South Africans and we should understand and respect that" said nobody, ever. Why is the oppression of women and religious minorities by Muslims different?

It's time we stopped with the cultural cringe and said quite clearly that our values are better than medieval theocracy.

In this case it's a straw man in any event. The Western powers are taking action to prevent genocide and to come to the aid of a friendly government. Both are expressly permitted in the UN Charter and indeed in the first case it is an obligation.
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I don't have a cultural cringe, and I do believe for all its faults the Western culture is the best we humans have so far come up with, although now quite possibly in decline.

Nor do I believe the currently proposed action is illegal, although one aspect of its justification - that we have been invited in by a government - is somewhat undermined by the fact that it is a government we installed.

My objection is threefold.

First, we refuse to deal with the consequences of multiculturalism in the UK - specifically, treating all cultures including fanatical death cults as if the were of equal worth and hence in fact apply our laws very inconsistently, quite apart from the obvious dangers of terrorists going unidentified because we refuse to use religious / cultural profiling.

Second, we are simply using the same tactics which fanned the flames of extremism to get us to this point.

Third, we don't really know what we are trying to achieve. We were getting mission creep even before the Parliamentary debate finished, and we don't even know whose side we are on in Syria, nor are we dealing with the obvious point that the boundaries imposed on this area during the 20th century are impracticable - there needs to be a separate Kurdish state for a start.

Under these circumstances it is clear the proposed action is not really tackling the problem, and we will not be able to effectively tackle the problem until our politicians can admit that the policy of multiculturalism - really cultural apartheid - is profoundly mistaken. Worse, it is actually an abrogation of responsibility - it basically is saying let the most militant culture succeed.

So to sum up I object simply because people are going to be killed in a war which cannot, under current conditions, succeed, and which has come about by the arrogance of politicians who refuse to conceded their mistakes, both regarding previous wars and current policies.

Edit: Peter Hitchens is saying broadly the same thing:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... ilway.html

Not that I agree with him on some of the stuff further down the page.
 
ramonmercado said:
Quake42 said:
Vive la France!

France bombs Isis depot in Iraq

François Hollande's office says air strike destroyed logistics depot in north-east held by Islamic State


French planes have carried out air strikes on Islamic State (Isis) targets in Iraq.

Less than 24 hours after President François Hollande announced he had approved a request from the government in Baghdad for air support, at least two French Rafale planes attacked the insurgents' positions.

A statement from Hollande's office read: "This morning, at 9.40am, our Rafale aircraft carried out a first attack against a logistics centre of the terrorist organisation Daesh [Isis] in the north-east of Iraq. The target was hit and entirely destroyed. Other operations will be carried out in the days to come."
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Continues:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... amic-state
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:) :) :) :) :)
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No, they shouldn't be cheered or thanked. They are directly accountable for the present situation, they have been supporting terrorists (islamists or not) for three years with the intent of destabilizing Syria, their hands are full of blood. there is even no indication that they have changed their minds or have admitted that what they were doing was evil (but this, they certainly know). And they certainly cannot come clean just because they are now striking at their old allies. A criminal cannot have his crimes washed away just by comitting more crimes or turning his back to his accomplices.

In fact, their wrongdoings will begin to be redeemed when they will be tried and punished. The creation of an international court to judge mass states crimes has become an urgency.
 
Quake42 said:
Quote:
There have plenty of other "we love death, we love martyrdom" etc etc pronouncements from these groups. It's quite wrong to say it was a one-off.


Kindly list them.
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Mohammed Siddique Khan (7/7 bomber)
Hamas
Hezbollah
Al-Qaeda
At least one Australian imam
Every other imam who glorifies martyrdom
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If the fact that their activists are ready to sacrifice themselves in a war means that Hezbollah is a death cult, then every state and army in the world is a death cult.


As for the threat posed by Daesh and the various jihadists, I concur with garrick92. Nor « Islam » nor « Islamism » are a big threat. Lack of military might, lack of industry, lack of economic and financial power, and even more, lack of existence as coherent entities. In Mali, the islamists were easily defeated by a relatively light French force. In northern Iraq, they may have heavier material at their disposal ; but firstly, this is material they couldn't have seized militarily by their own means ; that they couldn't handle without foreign help. Secondly, they have nor the ressource nor the competence to administrate such a territory of their own on a long term. Their money came only from oil pits, and that couldn't have been done without the complicity of foreign powers, notably Western powers. In the case of an intervention, I mean a serious intervention with a real intent to eradicate them, Daesh wouldn't resist long.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Analis said:
Nor « Islam » nor « Islamism » are a big threat.
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Not a threat, you say? The long-term goal of all observant Muslims is to establish Sharia wherever they live, and if they cannot dominate by force, they will try to dominate by out-breeding. Example here (Belgium):

facebook.com/video.php?v=10202640652754306
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British Channel 4 have a fact check page on that claim.

FactCheck: will Britain have a Muslim majority by 2050?

It includes figures on the rest of Europe.

Bullshit out of the mouth of a Muslim extremist is still bullshit. Bullshit on a video clip from an extremist Christian news outlet like CBN, is also still bullshit.
 
The BS, of course, is peddled by all sorts.

However , there is a fundamental problem. Our Western polity has forgotten that humans are subject to irrational urges.

We have seen wave after wave of political disruptions and violent invasions over the centuries driven by religion or other 'popular movements' conducted with religious fervour.

The West assumes we live in an age where that can't happen - and yet it clearly does have the potential to happen again, and even thoroughly Westernised individuals can be caught up in the hysteria.

Pretending there is no religious element to this violence is simply not credible. Even ordinary people with no interest in politics can see that, not to mention those in the military who have actually been to Iraq and Afghanistan, and I suspect it is one of the major reasons they increasingly have no confidence in either national or local politicians.

The particular religion in question, because of the clear secular motives of its founder, has always been a handy tool for aggressives. Unlike say Buddhism or Christianity it does not need much - I grope for a non-judgemental word - alteration from its basic texts in order to justify both violent and subversive overthrow and subjugation of non-believers.

edit - more in the Daily Mail today on the futility of the proposed action and the consequences already of the bombing campaign = al-Qaeda and ISIS, formerly fighting each other, are seeking to join forces against the common enemy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... itain.html
 
Given the spacing between the first three executions (Foley-Sotloff, 14 days; Sotloff-Haines, 11 days) I wonder if it can be assumed that the air raids have, at least, disrupted the IS activities. It has been 16 days since Haines and there has been no further news on Alan Henning and in fact a video of another British hostage seemingly in a different location and acting in a more cooperative manner has been released instead.

Seems a change of tack, and with the publicity the murderer of the other three captives had been getting you would assume that they would want him to continue to be the face of their attacks.

Would be nice to think that there had been some positive results and he has been quietly captured, or - if need be - something more blunt like a direct hit.

Unfortunately, though, I'd not be surprised to see another gruesome video in the coming week and any delay purely down to having to relocate away from the bombing raids.
 
It's almost certain, at least to my mind, that future historians will judge he US/UK/EU very poorly for the wars we have been waging in the middle east. They won't break these actions down into individual pieces as we are forced to do, living in the moment of it, ie: Desert Storm I&II, Desert Shield, Enduring Freedom etc, but rightly ascribe them to the US initiative first put forward by Bush (DS1), and then expanded and enhanced by the 1998 letter to Clinton, best known as the 'clean break' or PNAC study. Thus they will observe a 3 or 4 decade 'pivot' war, that is wholly to maintain and enforce the US hegemony of global capital markets and consumerism.

Of course, the exact mechanism and scope of the clean break has changed over time, as situations largely set up by the US are played out on the world stage. Iraq, Iran and Syria were always in the mix to be destabilised / disrupted and then kept as basketcase vassals to Washington, but the inclusion of Saudi Arabia in the gunsights is, as i have previously mentioned, as a result of the US's energy self-sufficiency being a much quicker prospect than Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Quail et al had foreseen.

These historians will also reveal that many of the 'extremist' groups were either directly, or indirectly, controlled by the CIA of other 'western' state intelligence agency (Mossad most probably), and playing esssentially the 21st century equivalent of Ed Lansdale's operations post-WW2 and in the lead up to the Vietnam war. It's a tried-and-tested method, refined over the decades and like many US initiatives; supremely pragmatic: if the system of disruption and force-projection works then why change it.

Interviews with people like Nabil Na'eem offer tantalising glimpses of what's really going on behind the scenes, and have the added bonus of being completely discountable, after all what's one crazy extremists word against the whole of the western media machine? and yet his understanding of who's who's brother in law, cousin, son in law and so on really does bring it home to one that far from being disparate, seperate entities randomly springing up in all these new theatres of war, they are actually a very closely-knit and interconnected network.

When people now in the late modern West ask the question of how previous populations living under totaliterian regimes cound allow the slaughter and general wrong-think to happen, i fear that our descendants will ask the same question of us.

We'llgive them the same answer:' I was working to put food on the table, and everything told to me stated we were in the right.

depressing.

But im off to a gala dinner so don't really care, plus ive got a mega busy week with work and then its my birthday so THESE are the things i need to focus my time and brainpower on :?
 
Little will be heard from Arab leaders on atrocities of Islamic State against women
The US looks past human rights in the Middle East as it woos the coalition

... When American presidents rain down bombs on Muslim countries, they use the awful treatment of women in the Middle East as one of their justifications. In his speech at the United Nations, Mr Obama said he wanted “to speak directly to young people across the Muslim world” and urged them to create “genuine” civil societies.
“Where women are full participants in a country’s politics or economy, societies are more likely to succeed,” he said. “And that’s why we support the participation of women in parliaments and peace processes, schools and the economy.”

Yet, because we need the regressive rulers in the Persian Gulf to sell us oil and buy our fighter jets and house our fleets and drones and give us cover in our war coalitions, we don’t really speak out about their human rights violations and degradation of women as much as we should.

The Obama administration was sparked into action by the videos of IS beheading two American journalists. Yet Saudi Arabia – wooed by Mr Kerry this month to join the coalition – has been chopping off heads regularly, sometimes for non-lethal crimes such as drug use or sorcery.

The president should just drop the flowery talk and cut to the chase. Americans get it. Let’s not pretend we’re fighting for any democratic principles here. ...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us ... -1.1944543
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Arm The Kurds!

UK Kurds begin hunger strike, demand heavy weapons for ISIS fight

Members of London’s Kurdish community have staged hunger strikes outside Downing Street to lobby the UK government to provide Iraqi Kurdistan with advanced weaponry to fight militant group Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS or ISIL).

The strikes are part of a global campaign to encourage national governments to provide more support to the Kurds, who are fighting the IS in the border town of Kobani in Northern Syria.

Those taking part in the protest include supporters of the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (KDUP), a group representing the Kurdish community in Syria, as well as the controversial Kurdistan workers party (PKK), which is listed as a terrorist organization in a number of Western countries.

Protesters say their repeated calls for arms and advanced weaponry have been rejected by the European Union and the United States, with some blaming Turkey for deliberately creating obstacles, for fear of strengthening pro-independence Kurds.

“We are on hunger strike, to help [the] Kurdish community living in Rojava [Syrian Kurdistan], who live on the Turkish side,” said Volkan Celebi, an activist participating in the hunger strike.

“They are fighting against ISIS terror and they need weapons. We are demanding heavy weapons and anti-tank missile from UK government and other European governments, not just the UK…We will continue [the] hunger strike until we take it.”

Protests have also taken place in France, while marches to raise international awareness of the Kurds’ struggle have also gripped San Diego in the US.

The IS has been fighting in Syria since 2012, but made headlines in recent months after extending its front into northern and western Iraq, as well as key areas within Syria. In August, the group claimed it had established a ‘caliphate’, or Islamic state, in the region. ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgGgSpN ... EwMrmcxz_w

http://rt.com/uk/192132-kurd-hunger-strike-london/
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Bikers v ISIS? Dutch motorcycle gang gets green light to fight Islamic State

?Already battling airstrikes conducted by the US and its allies, the Islamic State now has another threat to look out for: a motorcycle gang from the Netherlands. Three members of the infamous Dutch biker gang “No Surrender” reportedly journeyed to Iraq and Syria last week in order to fight alongside Kurdish troops and against Islamic State (IS) militants.

Now, commenting on the legality of that move, the Dutch public prosecutor said Tuesday they are allowed to do so.

“Joining a foreign armed force was previously punishable, now it’s no longer forbidden,” the prosecutor’s spokesman, Wim de Bruin, told AFP. As long as the individuals do not enlist in a battle against the Netherlands, they are not committing a crime, he added. If the members of the biker gang are found to be engaging in torture or rape, however, De Bruin said they could be indicted on criminal charges.

http://rt.com/news/195980-netherlands-biker-gang-isis/
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Maybe there should be an International Brigade for anti-ISIS fighters?
 
Been busy elsewhere -

oops:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 95485.html

According to the Times, the reports were embarrassing for the Pentagon because, in five of the six incidents in which troops were wounded by chemical agents, the munitions appeared to have been “designed in the US, manufactured in Europe and filled in chemical agent production lines built in Iraq by Western companies”.
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Treason charge idea considered for UK jihadists

UK jihadists who travel to Iraq or Syria to fight could be tried for treason, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond has said.
He added that such people had "sworn personal allegiance" to Islamic State (IS) and therefore could potentially have committed the offence.

The last UK prosecution for treason was in 1946, when William Joyce was hanged for Nazi propaganda broadcasts.
Committing the offence involves being disloyal to the Crown.

Mr Hammond revealed that UK jihadists could be tried for treason when he was asked a question in the House of Commons by Conservative backbencher Philip Hollobone.
Mr Hollobone said: "Their [UK jihadists'] actions are treachery against Her Majesty, and aiding and abetting enemies of Her Majesty is one of the greatest offences a British citizen can commit."

Mr Hammond replied that there were "a number of offences under English law with which returning foreign fighters can be charged".
He added: "We have had a discussion about the allegiance question. We have seen people declaring that they have sworn personal allegiance to the so-called Islamic State.
"That does raise questions about their loyalty and allegiance to this country and about whether, as my honourable friend rightly says, the offence of treason could have been committed.
"I will certainly draw his remarks to the attention of the home secretary, who ultimately will be the person who needs to look at this."

Meanwhile, Scotland Yard's head of counter-terrorism Mark Rowley said that "dozens" of UK families have contacted the police in a bid to stop their relatives travelling to fight in Syria.
He also said "many" Britons, known to have travelled to Syria, had now returned to the UK and that police were in the process of attempting to arrest and prosecute them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29655099

Would being hanged for treason still qualify an IS member for paradise? If so, they could just get themselves hanged here, and save all the hassle of getting out to a war zone and being blown to bits by smart bombs from allied war-planes... :twisted:
 
I don't think you can be hanged for treason any more - I think the only capital crime left is arson in a naval dockyard :)
 
IIRC it's been illegal for us to hang anyone for anything since we signed the Maastricht treaty, though i'm sure somebody will have the time and interest to research it and get a warm fuzzy glow when they scream to the world that i'm in the wrong.

In the meantime, let the smartbombs take care of the misguided twats, at least that way i can see my taxes spent wisely :twisted:
 
I don't think you can be hanged for treason any more - I think the only capital crime left is arson in a naval dockyard
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Nah, that's gone as well. We don't have any capital crimes in the UK any more. I can't really see us reintstating the death penalty either, whether we're in or out of the EU.
 
I'd be wary of treason charges.

The UK Armed Forces provide training to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf dictatorships. A battalion of Gurkhas helps to prop up the psychotic Sultan of Brunei. If someone aids democratic forces attempting to overthrow these dictators and in the process puts UK military personnel at risk should they be charged with treason?

The real crime in those cases is the fact that the UK is helping to keep murderous despots in power.
 
Quake42 said:
I don't think you can be hanged for treason any more - I think the only capital crime left is arson in a naval dockyard
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Nah, that's gone as well. We don't have any capital crimes in the UK any more. I can't really see us reintstating the death penalty either, whether we're in or out of the EU.
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Well...once Sharia Law is instated and we have a caliphate in the UK...
 
ramonmercado said:
I'd be wary of treason charges.

The UK Armed Forces provide training to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf dictatorships. A battalion of Gurkhas helps to prop up the psychotic Sultan of Brunei. If someone aids democratic forces attempting to overthrow these dictators and in the process puts UK military personnel at risk should they be charged with treason?

The real crime in those cases is the fact that the UK is helping to keep murderous despots in power.
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Well, yes, they should be charged with treason if they are fighting against the UK. Whether or not that is just is a different issue.

In any case, I don't necessarily think a badly-run democracy is better than a well-run dictatorship. As has been said many times, you have to have a demos before you can have a democracy. In those countries with many bitterly opposed factions, popular vote is going to run on tribal, not common sense lines.
 
Cochise said:
ramonmercado said:
I'd be wary of treason charges.

The UK Armed Forces provide training to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf dictatorships. A battalion of Gurkhas helps to prop up the psychotic Sultan of Brunei. If someone aids democratic forces attempting to overthrow these dictators and in the process puts UK military personnel at risk should they be charged with treason?

The real crime in those cases is the fact that the UK is helping to keep murderous despots in power.
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Well, yes, they should be charged with treason if they are fighting against the UK. Whether or not that is just is a different issue.

In any case, I don't necessarily think a badly-run democracy is better than a well-run dictatorship. As has been said many times, you have to have a demos before you can have a democracy. In those countries with many bitterly opposed factions, popular vote is going to run on tribal, not common sense lines.
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So they don't have a right to have democracy because you disapprove of the way they might vote?

The UK should not be propping up dictators and would you really suggest that Saudi Arabia is a well run dictatorship other than in the interests of its large Royal Family.?
 
So they don't have a right to have democracy because you disapprove of the way they might vote?
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I don't think that's what Cochise is saying. The point is that democracy requires certain preconditions for it to be effective. One of these is for the bulk of the population to identify primarily with the nation state ahead of other tribal, ethnic or religious considerations. The West has spent too much time pushing democracy on countries which are not ready for it. We would be better off supporting education and the concept of the rule of law.
 
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