It's Paedogeddon!

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You know what Giles de Ray (allegedly) did? and what the subject of Turn of the Screw is, Quint and Miss Jessel and all?

Rather than trying to close off someone else's comments, why not ask questions? Or come up with counter examples?
 

Rahere

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You know what Giles de Ray (allegedly) did? and what the subject of Turn of the Screw is, Quint and Miss Jessel and all?

Rather than trying to close off someone else's comments, why not ask questions? Or come up with counter examples?
I'll deal with de Rais first. The charges on which de Rais was tried, condemned and executed are in the public record. The value judgements are of the time, but that is actually allowed in Law: you can't reset the clock. So there's no alleged about it. The facts are about as gruesome as they get, some officials turned up at his chateau unexpectedly and found a large number of bodies. He's gone down in history as Bluebeard.

The wider question of the precursors to modern chemistry is most certainly one where huge amounts of noise were slowly elminiated from the knowledge base was a process which had to happen. But to say that there was no accurate knowledge at all inside the studies which led to Chemistry is equally wrong: I work in the topmost study group of First Caliphate thinking, and once in a very long blue moon you come across something which is quantifiable and works, in amidst an enormous heap of talismanic mumbo jumbo. As viewed with modern eyes. The students are interested in seeing the world of the late mediaeval from the eyes of the day, from the eyes of people much like you and me, but informed by folk education rather than the empirical constraints if scientific rationalism - which started from exactly these roots. A scientific experiment which shook up Jan van Helmont's Paracelsian viewpoint so severely he started over. But started over from within the existing corpus of knowledge, checking and rechecking. That passed through his son Franz Mercurius (the product of that night's work) to Leibnitz. And in this country, Newton wrote twice as much on the alchemical as ever he did on the celestial. It doesn't speak to his knowledge, but it does speak to his values, where he invested his time.

Two major noise dynamics existed at that time, in addition to relative ignorance, firstly the Roman Catholic vector, determined to protect dogma - which is why Galileo was seriously persecuted by the Inquisition, and yet Athanasius Kirchner (sometimes Kircher) was able to work in a very similar area inside the Vatican - and secondly the nascent Freemasonry, in the Royal Society, which was almost as dogmatic the other way. This is why the work in this country was void - the likes of John Dee are scoundrels. But Brussels was very evidently a different matter. Nicholas de Cerclaers, thought to be at the root of the van Helmont history (we don't know for certain, van Helmont's write up gives no name, very likely to protect his source) had certainly produced a small fortune in 1568, the receipt for the delivery of 40 000 moutons d'or is in the French Regional archives in Lille. Two buckets of the stuff are reputedly somewhere in the Belgian museum system, I haven't seen them with my own eyes. Chemically pure, it seems, not with a low amount of inclusions you'd expect from refined, mined gold. When I talk about relative ignorance, what I find most intriguing is, how on earth did they know mercury and gold are immediate neighbours on an atomic table which was centuries away still? The relative temperatures implicit in Dry Path and Wet Path alchemy, under the Law of Conservation of Energy, suggest that the new Dry Path used temperatures 12 times higher than the Wet Path, which involved heating with wood, which burns in the 200-300 C range. That therefore implies Dry Path in the 3000 C area, which in turn implies plasma technology, needed to extract the proton - and how exactly did they do that?

I've written elsewhere here about the Phillip II and the Escorial. If you can't find it, I'll post again, when I have time. The simple fact is, that he was equally and very openly involved in the subject.

I'm open to factual argued cases based on fact, not "it stands to reasons".
 

Rahere

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Let me now turn the screw.

In 1954, Benjamin Britten held the first performance of The Turn of the Screw, the opera based on the book, at La Fenice in Venice. The role of Miles, the abused boy, was taken by David Hemmings, who would become better known as an actor: he was at that time an 11 year old treble at Alleyn's School in Dulwich. The scandal hit when Hemmings returned to the school: it was discovered that he and Britten had shared a bed through the run. Both affirmed to their dying day that that was as far as it went. But inappropriate behaviour is inappropriate behaviour, and so Hemmings was "invited" to leave, moving to the Dragon School in Kingston. Relations with Britten were officially severed, although some evidence suggests there was some unofficial contact, however the music teaching was in disgrace: where the English Department would create the National Youth Theatre in the next few years, seconding Michael Brooks to the project, no such event would happen for some time in a National Youth Choir.

In 1966, the very young Rahere joined that school, and joined what passed as a Choir. It was a wreck, and soon collapsed, but three of us in our teens insisted on keeping singing. One of our number was David Roblou, who is ranked as the world's finest harpsichord player, and produced many fine singers as a Voice Coach at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. I therefore already had context for what I would later discover.

The full tale of The Turn of the Screw once again starts in Brussels. In the 1830s, Charlotte Bronte had worked as Governess for the Segwick Benson family, of which Edward would rise to prominence as Archbishop of Canterbury. Discovering that the status of a governess was working-class, and with pretensions from others in the family towards a higher class status, a plan was conceived to become school-teachers instead. The one thing they lacked was a working knowledge of French, and so she and Emily were packed off to Brussels, to become English teachers in the boarding school run by Mme Zoe Parent, which catered for the education of young ladies of the upper class. Immediately adjacent to that school, slightly further down the hill. was a similar boys school, run by Mme Parent's husband, M Paul Heger. Beyond the two was an ancient almshouse, the Terarken, and opposite was a convent, dedicated to the Eucharist. Fortunately, we have very detailed and specific descriptions of the area from her, from her semi-autobiographical novels The Professor and Villette. And in them, we have a very curious description of a hole in the ground in the bottom end of the school grounds, where the roof of a tunnel had fallen in, connecting the Convent with the Palace. Nuns could sometimes be seen passing along the two, and indeed, if you visit Brussels today, you will find the last vestiges of the Aula Magna at the top of the road, some 20' below ground. Further down the hill, the tunnels still exist, and are used by the Belgobank branch opposite the Central Station as their vaults. The railway has cut the tunnel, but it continues beyond, in the basement of the antiquarian booksellers in the Galleries Borthier: this was where the two buckets of gold were found. And for me, the clincher, the good Charlotte notes that occasionally, the tunnels also produced fireballs.

Emily returned to Yorkshire after a year, but Charlotte stayed on, until Mme Parent became suspicious of her relationship with hubby, and sent her packing. The rest of the tale is evident: the novels were a success, and that made them. However, Charlotte passed the idea of The Turn of the Screw on to Henry James, who put a contrasting piece to it, in a play, Covering End, and named the couplet The Two Magics, Covering End dealing in idealised white romantic love, and The Turn of the Screw the dark obsessive form of love, where everything is twisted and perverted. Britten therefore had his own motives in only taking the dark, obsessive part, and training Hemmings in the intricacies of the role.

Shortly after Charlotte's departure, a crisis happened in the life of the oldest daughter of the founder of the nearby Société Générale, Anna de Meeus. It involved the Papal Nuncio to Belgium, Count Gioacchino Pecci. Anna's father, Count Ferdinand de Meeus, was the éminence grise behind the Belgian throne, the financier who had bailed the nascent Belgian State out in the aftermath of the 1830 Revolution. That happened in an utterly Ruritanian way, in a State torn in two by the Treaty of Versailles in the aftermath of Waterloo, when Viscount Castlereigh decided it was too small to be viable, economically, and so assigned Wallonia to France, and Flanders to the Netherlands. The intensely Catholic Flemish found no welcome in the Protestant Netherlands, and the Walloons were about as welcome in France - the French make the same kind of jokes about the thick Walloon accents as the English used to about the Irish, and were about as welcome as a result.

So when the new Opera House held its first performance of Auber's La Muette de'Portici, in which the first half finishes with a rousing chorus all about the glories of having one's own State, the upper class, already pushed to fever by the writings of a liberal journalist, Louis de Potter, didn't raise the upper glass in the crush bar and instead raised the flag on the square outside. The French and Dutch were about as sick of the Belgians as the Belgians were of them, and so after a harum-scarum rush to the borders, de Potter found himself Head of State - and the first item on the agenda was paying the Civil Service salaries: the French and Dutch had scarpered with the public purse. So de Potter had had to give way to Meeus, who was able to demand ennoblement, and a monarchy, as a result. Whence de Meeus. All settled down for a decade, de Meeus sent his daughter off to Paris to be educated, she returned home to a life of genteel sewing. Until one day, the parish priest came knocking, they were on their beam ends because the Revolutionary French had banned all church maintenance 50 years earlier (think Austerity), the vestments were worn out, and they were taking communion from a tin cup. Help! The very Catholic Frederic got his family to work, and word got around. In short Order, 60 other priests were at his door, and Anna was in business, taking in the working class women of the lower town of Brussels, skilled lacemekers put out of work by the Industrial Revolution. That attracted the attention of the Church Authorities, and even the Nuncio became a frequent visitor, coming and going somewhat frequently. The result was inevitable: Anna had to take the veil, the Nuncio was sent packing declare persona non grata, and that, for a while, was that. I had this from the de Meeus family, in passing. Daddy buys his wayward lass the said convent, so her vocation grown from crafts to the End Game.
However, life was kind to Gioacchino, he rose in the Church to the top. Pope Leo XIII. The Capo di Guarda Nobile, his nepote, Camillo Pecci. Of exactly the right age. And Anna is then raised to become Mother Superior General. Talk about the Vatican Karma Sutra.... Her Order lifts too, she's now head of the ArchiAssociation of the Eucharist, right next door to the Almshouse of the Ark (the only Church property I've ever come across not dedicated to an intercessory Saint or Angel), indeed it becomes a Prima Primaria Order, the Perpetual and U?niversal Home of the Eucharist. Yikes!

But what rises quickly, falls quickly, I'd been Jonahed into catch it on it's last legs. The details are somewhat irrelevant here, but I found myself putting the modern descendants of the founding fathers of Belgium together to manage Anna's tomb, and the last of the Order's properties. Together with the richest man in Belgium, my own family, no slouches either, and the Supreme Court Judge responsible. Who, once we'd stabilised matters, then asked me, officially, to get to the bottom of what we'd taken in charge. Some dodgy dealings around the side led to Dutroux and consorts: child abuse. The history of the Eucharist means the Ark's somewhere around, at that level, and I traced what looked very like it coming in. The Terarken is explicit, as was another site. No wonder Leo had bumped his girlfriend to the equivalent of a female Cardinal, she had possibly landed the real thing. A massive piezo-electric charger, to be specific, capable of charging when bumped to a huge scale. Exactly what you need to create plasma fields before Faraday. Like the other arks to be found in Barcelona's Regional Museum, electricity storage before anyone had invented a generator. That's kind of odd. And exactly what explains the Dry Path Alchemy which inspired van Helmont.

This in detail holds together, cross-corroborating, so it's not conspiracy. Do some homework, folks, and come back with facts, not opinions. If anyone knows how to control taking a single proton from an atomic nucleus, I'd love to know. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29357254
 
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blessmycottonsocks

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He has to be given the presumption of innocence but the alleged offences took place when he was aged 13 to 16. Would that be taken into account if he was found guilty? Any legal eagles want to venture opinions about this?
Fair comment Ramon, but when I was 16, I definitely knew right from wrong and certainly didn't want to rape anyone, let alone young boys.

I do agree with the concept of innocent before proven guilty though, so let's see what the court decides.
 

EnolaGaia

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He has to be given the presumption of innocence but the alleged offences took place when he was aged 13 to 16. Would that be taken into account if he was found guilty? Any legal eagles want to venture opinions about this?
It would depend entirely on the relevant jurisdiction's statutes and the specific charges.

In the USA there are all sorts of provisions qualifying, shifting, or restricting the charges that can be brought and / or the penalties that can be applied in sentencing if the accused is himself a minor. These provisions vary quite a bit among states. Some are based on calendar age(s) at the time, while others are based on age difference.
 
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Fair comment Ramon, but when I was 16, I definitely knew right from wrong and certainly didn't want to rape anyone, let alone young boys.

I do agree with the concept of innocent before proven guilty though, so let's see what the court decides.
Indeed. But he was 13 when it begun; was he influenced, even introduced to this by his older brothers? Was he himself abused? A lot to consider and I'd better say no more about the case as it is before the courts.

But if anyone is aware of how English courts deal with adults who committed crimes when they were minors then please comment on a general basis.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Thanks. Who would have known that bestiality attracted a potential life sentence up until 2004!

It doesn't deal with how those who offended in their youth are treated when they are convicted decades later though.
Didn't The Sun start a campaign to introduce mandatory life sentences for cases that combined sado-masochism, necrophilia and bestiality?
I think the Lord Chief Justice told them they were flogging a dead horse with that one..
 

GNC

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The man who started one of the biggest paedophile ring investigations in recent years is now on trial for making it all up:
News story

Don't know how much we can say as this is an ongoing trial, but... no, I won't say anything. Just bringing it to your attention.
 

Ogdred Weary

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The man who started one of the biggest paedophile ring investigations in recent years is now on trial for making it all up:
News story

Don't know how much we can say as this is an ongoing trial, but... no, I won't say anything. Just bringing it to your attention.
Haven't at least a couple of other men come forward saying similar things? I'm not saying that that makes it true, just curious as to way he's on trial and others aren't.
 
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Haven't at least a couple of other men come forward saying similar things? I'm not saying that that makes it true, just curious as to way he's on trial and others aren't.
I suspect they've found provable untruths and worked back into his testimony from there. Falsely accusing politicians (assuming it turns out that this is in fact what he has done) is extremely hazardous, as quite often their diaries are more or less a matter of public record. Falsely accusing several politicians - or other persons whose timetables might be trackable - of being involved simultaneously in a crime at a particular time would require an extremely minute attention to the details of their several itineraries. I wouldn't be surprised if impossible timing proves to be a part of his undoing - I don't doubt that inconsistent testimony and incontinent computer use are other elements.

Lying well is bloody hard work.

(The BBC reports today that the guy has child pornography on his computer while he was involved in accusing others of abuse - and, when discovered, then tried to blame his own teenage son.)
 

Yithian

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I quite enjoyed the part where he claimed to have a fear of water and be unable to swim owing to the sadistic torture involving water he was subjected to, but a police search of his home turned up an extensive collection of photographs and recordings of him swimming all over the world across a number of years.

The prosecutor described the find as "an adult lifetime of swimming memories".

Not exactly a careful trickster.
 
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Getting more bizarre.

A man accused of making false claims of child abuse against public figures told police his dog was abducted "as a warning" from a paedophile gang which included the former head of MI5.

In a video interview shown in court Carl Beech claimed ex-spy chief Michael Hanley told him it was "punishment" for missing a meeting with his abusers. His claims led to the £2m Operation Midland, which resulted in no arrests. Mr Beech denies 12 counts of perverting the course of justice and one of fraud. In the video interview with police, recorded in October 2014, he also accused former Conservative MP Harvey Proctor of being part of the gang.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48384950
 
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