It's The Zionists

wembley8

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#1
Whatever you say about ol' Ahmadinejad, he certainly brings conspiracy theory right into the mainstream:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ap ... ech-israel


He spoke in Geneva's Palais des Nations and used language probably not heard there since it was built to house the doomed League of Nations in the dark days of the 1930s. He said Zionists had thoroughly infiltrated western countries. They had "penetrated into the political and economic structure including their legislation, mass media, companies, financial systems, and their security and intelligence agencies ... to the extent that nothing can be done against their will", he told delegates from around the world."
[/quote]
 
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#3
Indeed. In a perfect world everyone would live happily together with no need for borders or states. In a better world than we have, a Democratic Secular Republic of Israel-Palestine should be possible. I the world which we have I'm afraid its likely to be a Two State solution. Israel will have to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders and should consider ceding more land to solve the Right To Return question.
 
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#4
Speaking of Iran, heres news about a meeting I'm involved with.


Iranian Revolution – the hidden history

8pm, 23 April, Teachers Club, Parnell Square, Dublin 1.
Hands off People of Iran presents:

Speakers:

Torab Saleh Workers Left Unity Iran

Anne McShane Hands off People of Iran

Chair: Des Derwin

23 April Teachers Club, Parnell Square 8pm

The Iranian revolution is often portrayed as an uprising led by Islamic fundamentalists. This completely denies the reality of this immense social movement. The roots of 1979 lay in the mass democratic and secular struggle against the deeply discredited Shah. Women’s organisations, workers and students all took part in an uprising for freedom and democracy. This was a progressive movement that was hijacked by the Ayatollah and his supporters.

Torab Saleh took part in the movement of 1979. He will speak of his personal experiences of that time and the challenges it presented to him and others on the left. He will focus on the many exciting events of that year, including the coming together of a vibrant and confident women’s movement and the energy and determination of the working class.

Torab has written extensively on the subject and his articles can be found at http://www.hopi-Ireland.org

Come along to listen and take part in an important discussion about one of the most exciting events of the 20th century.

Contact Anne at [email protected] or on 0862343238


http://www.hopi-Ireland.org
 

James_H

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#5
You should try listening to the Iranian world service, it's Zionists this, Zionists that, Zionists the other. 'Scapegoat' springs to mind.
 

Quake42

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#6
Israel will have to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders and should consider ceding more land to solve the Right To Return question.
Agreed. Withdrawal to pre-1967 borders, some other concessions on land and Jerusalem becomes an international city under some sort of UN control. In return the Palestinian government ceases terrorist attacks, gives Israel full recognition and drops the right of return.

I'd love to see Obama put sufficient pressure on Israel to agree to something similar. I suspect the difficulty would come in persuading the Palestinians - particularly Hamas - to sign up to it.

We'll see.
 

wembley8

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#7
Even better, when he gave the speed live, he dropped

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ap ... ust-speech

An official Iranian text of Ahmadinejad's address to the conference on Monday referred to "the ambiguous and dubious question of the Holocaust". However, when the president delivered the speech he omitted the phrase, referring more vaguely to "abuse of the Holocaust". He also dropped a segment about Zionist "penetration" of western society.

It is not clear why he deviated from the prepared text...

- but it's obvious really - THEY must have got to him. Which only goes to prove his point that they control everything...

btw I believe the bit about his calling for Israel to be destroyed is a myth due some wilful misintrpretation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ah ... ith_Israel
(put about by Still More Dark Zionist Forces, no doubt)
 

rasputin

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#8
I was under the impression that blaming the Jews, oops I mean Zionists, for all the problems in the world was already mainstream and had been par for the course for the last, what 2 thousand years or so. The Muslims may be a bit late into the game but they've picked up the mantle of European Judeophobia pretty well. Some of the cartoons in the arab press would make the publisher of Der Stürmer blush :roll: .
 

river_styx

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#9
Are we sure this man isn't Mel Gibson?

On a more serious note, what if, just what if, it was all true?

We're willing to believe in countless other conspiracy theories ranging from Opus Dei to the Illuminati and The Masons, so what's so bad about believing the Jews are trying to take over the world?

Any nation desires more power. Especially the small, persecuted ones.
 

Jerry_B

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#12
river_styx said:
On a more serious note, what if, just what if, it was all true?

We're willing to believe in countless other conspiracy theories ranging from Opus Dei to the Illuminati and The Masons, so what's so bad about believing the Jews are trying to take over the world?

Any nation desires more power. Especially the small, persecuted ones.
The idea that the Jews are trying to take over the world has been in circulation for a long, long time. However, if true (unlikely) they've made a complete hash of it thus far. Israel is still penned in and stuck in a recurrent cycle of war, having to be propped up by various allies in order to survive. So it terms of world domination that's not really what I'd call any sort of sound footing - if the Jews were trying to take over the world, Israel probably wouldn't be in such dire straits.
 

Quake42

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#15
The fact that they've made a mess of it so far doesn't mean that they aren't trying to take over the world. Perhaps they tried, and then got seriously out of their depth...
I really, really hope this is a joke.
 

Mythopoeika

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#16
Quake42 said:
The fact that they've made a mess of it so far doesn't mean that they aren't trying to take over the world. Perhaps they tried, and then got seriously out of their depth...
I really, really hope this is a joke.
Haha, there was a certain amount of tongue in cheek there, yes. :)
 
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#17
Quake42 said:
The fact that they've made a mess of it so far doesn't mean that they aren't trying to take over the world. Perhaps they tried, and then got seriously out of their depth...
I really, really hope this is a joke.
Indeed! These sort of commenrs just arent kosher.
 

rynner2

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#18
Pietro_Mercurios said:
And where are all the 24hr bagel shops and a kosher falafel stand on every street corner?
Er, Falmouth, actually... :shock:

Bagels in Tesco (but not 24hrs - yet!)

And the Falfalafel stand just yards away! (Though temporarily displaced by street works at the mo...)
 

Analis

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#19
Jerry_B said:
The idea that the Jews are trying to take over the world has been in circulation for a long, long time. However, if true (unlikely) they've made a complete hash of it thus far. Israel is still penned in and stuck in a recurrent cycle of war, having to be propped up by various allies in order to survive. So it terms of world domination that's not really what I'd call any sort of sound footing - if the Jews were trying to take over the world, Israel probably wouldn't be in such dire straits.
There is an opposite interpretation. Israel doesn't want peace. Israelis use their influence on Occidental countries to ensure a perpetual state of war. Because it helps to gain support from Jews from foreign countries. It helps to strenghten Israeli identity (as well as an old ghetto mentality). They are allowed to conquer Palestine. And they're afraid that in a state of peace, Israel would collapse, due to internal contradictions.
 

ted_bloody_maul

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#20
What sort of internal contradictions? As far as I can make out Israel is politically, militarily and economically unsustainable without American aid, aid which wouldn't be neccessary if it didn't have an antagonistic relationship with its neighbours (and a few further afield).
 

Analis

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#21
Ethnic and political contradictions. Nationalists fear that Israeli identity is fragile. They're probably right. It is only recent. Israel is a melting-pot of various communities, from very different historical and cultural backgrounds. The socialist ideology of the first Israeli colonists is no more. Only the perception of a foreign threat unites those communities. Religious vs secular (and a "secular Israel" is in itself an oxymoron, as it is based on being a Jewish state, and being a Jew is being a member of a religious community), Askhenaz vs Sephardi, old Israelis vs recent immigrants (Russians, Ethiopians, etc...), social inequalities. These enmities are already the cause of serious trouble. Without an external ennemy, they could become dominant. And Israel is the state of the Jews, every Jew is allowed to come "back" to Israel : if it is not anymore, it loses its disputable "legitimacy" (historically, it has none).
Plus the demographic question : Arabs could become the majority. They're afraid all those problems would tear apart Israel, and that an Israel at peace with its neighbours would collapse.
 

Quake42

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#22
Religious vs secular (and a "secular Israel" is in itself an oxymoron, as it is based on being a Jewish state, and being a Jew is being a member of a religious community)
Well, "being a Jew" isn't simply a matter of religion. It's also an ethnic and cultural affiliation. There are lots of Jewish people who are not especially religious, but consider themselves Jewish and feel an affinity with Israel.

Israel is certainly far more secular than most other countries in that region.
 

Cavynaut

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#23
I've always thought that the Jews got a bit of a crappy deal from Yahweh..."There you go, you can have this bit. It's got bugger all natural resources, and every one of your neighbours throughout history will hate you." Sheesh, chosen people or what?

Wasn't there some study done a few years ago which found out that there are no differences in terms of DNA/genetics (that sort of stuff) between Palestinians and so-called Israelis? The findings were kept quiet because it upset a few Jewish fundamentalists back in the USA. I recall reading something like it in the Observer at the time.

I agree with Q42...Jewishness is more cultural than religious. A bit like the majority of Muslims as far as I can see.
 

Ffalstaf

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#24
Cavynaut said:
I've always thought that the Jews got a bit of a crappy deal from Yahweh..."There you go, you can have this bit. It's got bugger all natural resources, and every one of your neighbours throughout history will hate you."
Regarding modern Israel, I think they got a crappy deal from the British government. "There you go, you can have this bit. It's predominantly Muslim Arab, and when you and they can't get along, we'll throw our hands up and pull out."

History would have been much different under the Kimberley Plan.
 
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#25
Ffalstaf said:
...

Regarding modern Israel, I think they got a crappy deal from the British government. "There you go, you can have this bit. It's predominantly Muslim Arab, and when you and they can't get along, we'll throw our hands up and pull out."

...
That was the bit, the Stern Gang, the Irgun, Yitzhak Shamir, Menachim Begin and the rest of the ultra-nationalist, terrorist fanatics, really wanted. They killed Brits, Arabs and Jews, to get it, too.

So don't shed too many tears.
 

Ffalstaf

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#26
Pietro, that's like saying, "You can't blame Britain for what they've done in Ireland; just look at the IRA." You're describing the reaction to Britain's U-turn on settling Jews in Palestine.

So don't let that horse get too high.
 
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#27
Ffalstaf said:
Pietro, that's like saying, "You can't blame Britain for what they've done in Ireland; just look at the IRA." You're describing the reaction to Britain's U-turn on settling Jews in Palestine.

So don't let that horse get too high.
That's just nonsense. I'm not saying that the Brits didn't handle things badly, in Israel, or in Northern Ireland (where the history of ill feeling, between the indigenous population and the colonists is effectively reversed, in the popular imagination, in a situation that has been around for several hundred years longer), just that things weren't quite as straightforward as you seem to assume.

The Jewish Zionists (originally, Jews who believed that that they could rebuild the biblical Israel as a homeland for the Jews and now Nationalist Israelis and their supporters), at that time, strongly believed in a biblical, quasi-historical Israel, where it now exists, not in North Western Australia, Paraguay, or Alaska, for that matter. Unfortunately, other people had been living there for a very long time, too, whatever the Israelis say theses days.

The Israeli terror organisations weren't just trying to oust the British Imperial yoke, or colonists from outside. They were the colonists. Albeit, trying to recreate a semi-mythical Holy Land and they were prepared to use violence, even deal with the Devil, to create and maintain it. The Irgun and the Stern Gang, were actually more like the the UDA, or the UDF, than the IRA (who are more like the PLO, or Hamas).

In fact, I believe the PLO and the IRA even had links, in the 1970's, re. gun running. training, tactics, etc.
 

Ffalstaf

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#28
Pietro_Mercurios said:
That's just nonsense.
I was rather hoping a mod might take a less combative tone, but if you're going to set that standard and start calling my argument nonsense, don't get offended if I label yours British propaganda, m'kay?


Pietro_Mercurios said:
I'm not saying that the Brits didn't handle things badly
Well, that's rather the impression I got from your "It's all the terrorists' fault" post.



Pietro_Mercurios said:
...just that things weren't quite as straightforward as you seem to assume.
Having actual Zionists in my family who were actually around at the time, and not all of us being ultra-nationalist fanatic terrorists, I'm quite aware of the complexities, even if my mimicking Cavynaut's post misled you.


Pietro_Mercurios said:
The Israeli terror organisations weren't just trying to oust the British Imperial yoke, or colonists from outside. They were the colonists.
A fraction. Tarring all the colonists for the actions of an extreme fraction is reprehensible and ignorant.
 
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#29
I see that we are not going to agree on this one.

You may label it 'British propaganda', if you wish, although I suspect the weight of the historical evidence is on my side of the discussion. I merely wanted to add a bit of depth to the discourse.

I really wasn't trying to lump all of the Jewish people in the British Palestinian Mandate, at that time, together and insinuate that they were terrorists. As my earlier comments, about who the terrorists were prepared to kill, "Brits, Arabs and Jews", should have made plain.

If you think that FT Mods should just sit back and accept a sloppy argument, when they see it, you may have some surprises coming. ;)
 
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#30
Ffalstaf said:
...A fraction. Tarring all the colonists for the actions of an extreme fraction is reprehensible and ignorant.
But there's no doubt that the actions of that fraction (hey, I'm a poet) didn't help accelerate the creation of the state of Israel and that many of the perpetrators of those actions didn't then become the elected representatives of it's populace - which rather belies the fact that they, their motives, and their ambitions, were somehow completely separate from, and unrepresentative of, other colonists. (And no, that's not the same as saying all colonists were terrorists).

As to modern Israel being the result of a 'crappy deal' by the British government - well, as a statement it does seem to distance Jewish involvement in the matter to a bizarre extent - after all, the phrase Promised Land was in existence for some considerable time before anyone had heard of the Balfour Declaration. (Which was itself the result of consultation with Zionist leaders of the day).
 
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