Jack The Ripper (Compendium Thread)

[Ghost In The Machine]

And I have wondered if Jack The Ripper carried a bottle of some very strong liquor with him, which he offered to them before striking, which helped to make them 'pliable'?
Or did he carry something like Chloroform to just knock them senseless?

Not sure but I thought, like Sutcliffe, he usually pounced from behind. So they'd be incapacitated literally before they knew what hit them?

 

[Cochise]

Not sure but I thought, like Sutcliffe, he usually pounced from behind. So they'd be incapacitated literally before they knew what hit them?

Yes, JTR seems to work very fast, and killed before mutilating. It's one of the reasons I suspect he had earlier victims.

The biggest mystery is what the heck happened to him after MJK. I can't imagine him just settling into a normal life, which is why I tend to look with more interest to suspects who died or were incarcerated very shortly afterwards. Although I'm not at all convinced by Montague Druitt..

However I concluded a decade or more ago that we will simply never know, so I don't follow the latest theories and suspects much.

 

[Solexman]

I caught the last episode of the series "The Missing Evidence" tonight. I'd not seen it before, was it new? It was intriguing but I think I'm suffering from "suspect fatigue".

I caught the last 20 minutes of it and found it very interesting. I knew Cross / lechmere had been considered before , back in 2007 I think. But I had never thought of him as a serious possibility. What I saw in the doc was all very circumstantial I feel. Surely there could be many more people living and working in the area who could “fit” the same way?
Although of course they weren’t found standing over a dead body at half 3 in the morning.

 

[DrPaulLee]

Not sure but I thought, like Sutcliffe, he usually pounced from behind. So they'd be incapacitated literally before they knew what hit them?

I think at least one of the victims had bruises on their face which has been interpreted lately as the Ripper clapping his hand over their mouths to silence them. I could be wrong on this though!

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Yes, JTR seems to work very fast, and killed before mutilating. It's one of the reasons I suspect he had earlier victims.

The biggest mystery is what the heck happened to him after MJK. I can't imagine him just settling into a normal life, which is why I tend to look with more interest to suspects who died or were incarcerated very shortly afterwards. Although I'm not at all convinced by Montague Druitt..

However I concluded a decade or more ago that we will simply never know, so I don't follow the latest theories and suspects much.

Yes, I've come to the same conclusion as you - we'll never know, and in a way that's what makes it interesting.

Asylum, prison, emigrated or dead are the usual options for why he disappeared, eh? There's no way he'd have just stopped.

 

[Solexman]

I managed to watch the whole episode last night. (It was quite the wrestling match writhing the tv remote from my wife’s clawing grasp).
Im in two minds. Yes the circumstancial evidence is compelling, but it is still circumstantial.
However it does seem to “fit” and is quite intriguing. But then… does it fit TOO well?

 

[Cochise]

I managed to watch the whole episode last night. (It was quite the wrestling match writhing the tv remote from my wife’s clawing grasp).
Im in two minds. Yes the circumstancial evidence is compelling, but it is still circumstantial.
However it does seem to “fit” and is quite intriguing. But then… does it fit TOO well?

The only thing I'd say is that given the number of dodgy characters out late at night in Whitechapel in 1888 it'd be hardly surprising that people who found bodies often had a peculiar or criminal past.

 

[Solexman]

Just watched the “documentary “ The case reopened, Jack the Ripper with Emilia Fox and David Wilson.

what a load of old tripe!

Martha Tabram was first victim… surprise! Wasn’t that established and accepted many years ago?
Liz Stride was a ripper victim, without question. Oh and the ripper took the trouble to change his clothes, half way through running from a corpse, and desperately seeking a second victim…. to explain the very different description at the Catherine Eddowes scene.. .Yeah sure, whatever.

And to top it all… Kosminszki is the ripper. No debate.

Absolute tripe.

 

[Cochise]

Just watched the “documentary “ The case reopened, Jack the Ripper with Emilia Fox and David Wilson.

what a load of old tripe!

Martha Tabram was first victim… surprise! Wasn’t that established and accepted many years ago?
Liz Stride was a ripper victim, without question. Oh and the ripper took the trouble to change his clothes, half way through running from a corpse, and desperately seeking a second victim…. to explain the very different description at the Catherine Eddowes scene.. .Yeah sure, whatever.

And to top it all… Kosminszki is the ripper. No debate.

Absolute tripe.

Agree with your post. but Tabram isn't regarded by most Ripperologists as a victim. I think she is though.

 

[Yithian]

Agree with your post. but Tabram isn't regarded by most Ripperologists as a victim. I think she is though.

Likewise.

And for that reason, I think her murder is especially important—as I discussed upthread.

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...er-compendium-thread.993/page-62#post-1808626

 

[Ogdred Weary]

Yes, I've come to the same conclusion as you - we'll never know, and in a way that's what makes it interesting.

Asylum, prison, emigrated or dead are the usual options for why he disappeared, eh? There's no way he'd have just stopped.

I believe he returned to his home planet.

 

[Ascalon]

A lot the victim consideration comes from establishing an MO, which is tricky. Even the most experienced profilers disagree because the evidence at this stage, is sketchy and unreliable. There seems to be some consensus that the general MO was to manually, or mechanically, strangle the victim into unconsciousness, and then start with the neck and progress. That is why Elizabeth Stride remains a credible victim, as her wounds suggested mechanical strangulation with her own silk scarf before the neck wound was inflicted.

If you accept that as an MO, then certain things fit. But Martha Tabram is an issue still. There's little evidence of strangulation in this case. So it takes a leap to say she was a JTR victim. But did the MO evolve? Perhaps. The killer was definitely opportuntistic, so while there were certain things that remained more or less consistent, there were others that evolved, especially if you consider Mary Jane Kelly, and the fact she was murdered indoors.

I haven't seen the programme in question, but I must say that I have seen other cases in that series and they do not inspire confidence.

 

[Cochise]

I should add that I don't find _any_ of the witness sightings very credible.

Again, I left off studying the case a long time ago, but I formed the impression that none of them genuinely saw JTR - not because he was a phantom or they were all lying - although I strongly suspect some of them were no more reliable than Pearly Poll.

Just that there was no compelling evidence to link the people they saw with the actual murders/murderer .

 

[Ogdred Weary]

I should add that I don't find _any_ of the witness sightings very credible.

Exactly, none of them mention a bloke in top hat and cape, with glowing red eyes, laughing maniacally.

 

[Ascalon]

I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that with modern techniques to examine what data is available, we will know everything about the killer, bar the name.
From the street where they lived to the places they frequented and how they developed.
I doubt that even that detailed a profile will allow us to identify a suspect, rather just to eliminate some long held ones.

 

[Cochise]

I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that with modern techniques to examine what data is available, we will know everything about the killer, bar the name.
From the street where they lived to the places they frequented and how they developed.
I doubt that even that detailed a profile will allow us to identify a suspect, rather just to eliminate some long held ones.

The problem is - what data? About the only half reliable data we have are the post mortems. We have no DNA, no fingerprints, no idea what the killer actually looks like , no idea of his movements, a few unreliable and contradictory witnesses of whom none are guaranteed to have seen him. If we had all the records available to the police at the time we might be better off but we don't.

Same problem as the concurrent torso murders.

It's because of all that that people are free to concoct ludicrous accusations. Which don't help. My personal opinion is that if it is one of the named suspects it will most likely be someone local lower class who shortly afterwards was taken out of circulation. But of course there will be thousands of possible that no-one who has ever considered. However there are a couple of the 'toff' candidates who at least I can't mentally eliminate.

 

[Ascalon]

The problem is - what data? About the only half reliable data we have are the post mortems. We have no DNA, no fingerprints, no idea what the killer actually looks like , no idea of his movements, a few unreliable and contradictory witnesses of whom none are guaranteed to have seen him. If we had all the records available to the police at the time we might be better off but we don't.

Same problem as the concurrent torso murders.

It's because of all that that people are free to concoct ludicrous accusations. Which don't help. My personal opinion is that if it is one of the named suspects it will most likely be someone local lower class who shortly afterwards was taken out of circulation. But of course there will be thousands of possible that no-one who has ever considered. However there are a couple of the 'toff' candidates who at least I can't mentally eliminate.

The modern techniques I was talking about were data analyses mostly. They are very good at determining the value and weight of available data. Consequently, it tends to cut through to what is worth reasoning on and what is not.

For example, if an eyewitness account is consistent across multiple witnesses, and tends to remain so over time, that is worth more than ten witnesses each with variations that add up to nothing specific.

Modern data analysis is good at determining the good from the bad, meaning that any reasoned outcome works from the strongest data, turning into intelligence and from their into wisdom.

I suspect, much like the FBI profiling exercise, that some data student somewhere will earn a PhD by gathering all data, running some algorithms over it and sorting the wheat from the chaff to make a definitive analysis. This is unlikely to yield a suspect, but rather a more accurate profile that will rule out more than it narrows down.

 

[Cochise]

The modern techniques I was talking about were data analyses mostly. They are very good at determining the value and weight of available data. Consequently, it tends to cut through to what is worth reasoning on and what is not.

For example, if an eyewitness account is consistent across multiple witnesses, and tends to remain so over time, that is worth more than ten witnesses each with variations that add up to nothing specific.

Modern data analysis is good at determining the good from the bad, meaning that any reasoned outcome works from the strongest data, turning into intelligence and from their into wisdom.

I suspect, much like the FBI profiling exercise, that some data student somewhere will earn a PhD by gathering all data, running some algorithms over it and sorting the wheat from the chaff to make a definitive analysis. This is unlikely to yield a suspect, but rather a more accurate profile that will rule out more than it narrows down.

Not trying to blindside you here but my whole career (barring some interruptions due to the Joker who seems to be intent on redirecting my life when I least expect it) has been in what we now call Data Analysis. In fact my company used to develop tools for that exact purpose. Before my life became dominated by code I was what we would now call a forensic statistician.

There is nothing anyone can do to turn rubbish data into good data, though it is a common modern delusion that you can. You can refine poor data, but there are limits.

 

[Ascalon]

Not trying to blindside you here but my whole career (barring some interruptions due to the Joker who seems to be intent on redirecting my life when I least expect it) has been in what we now call Dats Analysis. In fact my company used to develop tools for that exact purpose. Before my life became dominated by code I was what we would now call a forensic statistician.

There is nothing anyone can do to turn rubbish data into good data, though it is a common modern delusion that you can. You can refine poor data, but there are limits.

Couldn't agree more - garbage in garbage out!

But what has got good lately is determining what is garbage and what is perhaps less so

Anyway, I have great hope. Don't dissuade me with your industry insights, decades of personal experience and coding skills.

 

[Ascalon]

Timely

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503715390148517898

 

[cycleboy2]

Walter Sicker art exhibition, which seems to suggest that if he wasn't the Ripper, and having seen Patricia Cornwell's woeful arguments trying to convince me that he was, he would appear to have been at the very least a very disturbed individual, who may have been responsible for some of the 'Ripper' letters.

I'm going to Tate Modern soon for its Surrealism Beyond Borders exhibition and I'll try to take this in at Tate Britain on the same day. Looks like there are some cracking pics; I especially like the The PS Wings in the OP Mirror.

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...e-britain-london-show-women-victorian-painter

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Walter Sicker art exhibition, which seems to suggest that if he wasn't the Ripper, and having seen Patricia Cornwell's woeful arguments trying to convince me that he was, he would appear to have been at the very least a very disturbed individual, who may have been responsible for some of the 'Ripper' letters.

I'm going to Tate Modern soon for its Surrealism Beyond Borders exhibition and I'll try to take this in at Tate Britain on the same day. Looks like there are some cracking pics; I especially like the The PS Wings in the OP Mirror.

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...e-britain-london-show-women-victorian-painter

When I read it some years ago, remember thinking Cornwell's book is one of the worst out there - and there are some contenders. It's almost a classic study in some sort of Captain Ahab folly - she becomes so focused on this theory, that the universe is bent to accommodate it.

Sickert's just an artist and JTR was part of the world in which he was operating. Artists reflect their worlds. He too, may have had an obsession with JTR (I keep writing "JRT" then have this image in my head of a murderous jack russell terrier).

As Cochise says, not enough hard data for us to ever know anything - a bit like some of the more compelling cases in our own lifetimes - and that is precisely why it is so compelling. FWIW, I think Kosminski is the strongest candidate (not that the shawl DNA thing convinces me of anything, but for other reasons) but I still think it's more likely that it's someone else entirely who isn't even a name on a census. Having spend a couple decades often chasing people who disappear in Victorian England without actually being dead. People who would never be findable unless you get lucky. 19thc cities are full of them and no place moreso than London.

(ETA: To clarify, my targets have been people more like the victims, than JRT - women whose lives fell apart, and then had to vanish into the anonynmity of a city with a fake name, and I've seen a surprising number of them. They never turn up again. Not even in death records, or rather, not under their birth/married names).

 

[cycleboy2]

When I read it some years ago, remember thinking Cornwell's book is one of the worst out there - and there are some contenders. It's almost a classic study in some sort of Captain Ahab folly - she becomes so focused on this theory, that the universe is bent to accommodate it.

Sickert's just an artist and JTR was part of the world in which he was operating. Artists reflect their worlds. He too, may have had an obsession with JTR (I keep writing "JRT" then have this image in my head of a murderous jack russell terrier).

As Cochise says, not enough hard data for us to ever know anything - a bit like some of the more compelling cases in our own lifetimes - and that is precisely why it is so compelling. FWIW, I think Kosminski is the strongest candidate (not that the shawl DNA thing convinces me of anything, but for other reasons) but I still think it's more likely that it's someone else entirely who isn't even a name on a census.

I never read her book but saw her documentary, which was risible.

There was some film or images of Sickert and I can remember Cornwell saying you could see the evil in his eyes or somesuch tosh, but to me he looked like an old man who could be anybody's grandad!

It wouldn't have stood up in court as evidence.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I never read her book but saw her documentary, which was risible.

There was some film or images of Sickert and I can remember Cornwell saying you could see the evil in his eyes or somesuch tosh, but to me he looked like an old man who could be anybody's grandad!

It wouldn't have stood up in court as evidence.

I have this book on my Kindle and still not got round to reading it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Five-Untold-Lives-Killed-Ripper/dp/0857524488

Think I'll have a look, later.

Sickert exhibition sounds interesting.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Walter Sicker art exhibition, which seems to suggest that if he wasn't the Ripper, and having seen Patricia Cornwell's woeful arguments trying to convince me that he was, he would appear to have been at the very least a very disturbed individual, who may have been responsible for some of the 'Ripper' letters.

I'm going to Tate Modern soon for its Surrealism Beyond Borders exhibition and I'll try to take this in at Tate Britain on the same day. Looks like there are some cracking pics; I especially like the The PS Wings in the OP Mirror.

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...e-britain-london-show-women-victorian-painter

Sickert certainly had a morbid interest in the Ripper murders, as a couple of his most grim paintings suggest:

 

[maximus otter]

Sickert certainly had a morbid interest in the Ripper murders, as a couple of his most grim paintings suggest:

View attachment 54997View attachment 54998

Sickert's "Camden Town Murder" works of 1908-'09 were inspired by the murder of Emily Dimmock in September 1907.

maximus otter

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Sickert's "Camden Town Murder" works of 1908-'09 were inspired by the murder of Emily Dimmock in September 1907.

maximus otter

And if Sickert were himself a murderer, it would be rather damning evidence for him to produce a series of paintings of his crimes.

.... unless he were "hiding in plain sight" à la Savile of course!

 

[Tempest63]

Currently enjoying a pint in the Ten Bells, Spitalfields, having just entered by the door through which Annie Chapman left shortly before her encounter with Saucy Jack.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bells

maximus otter

I recall drinking in the Ten Bells when the name had been changed to The Jack the Ripper and it attracted a few demonstrations by people opposed to the name change and the glorification of the crimes.
It wasn’t a particularly nice or comfortable pub back then and I only used it once or twice when working locally.

 

[Tempest63]

And I have wondered if Jack The Ripper carried a bottle of some very strong liquor with him, which he offered to them before striking, which helped to make them 'pliable'?
Or did he carry something like Chloroform to just knock them senseless?

I think it was in ”The Five” where it was suggested that London was so full of rough sleepers, some likely inebriated, that JtR could have walked up to a rough sleeper and attacked them before they were aware anything was happening.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

When I read it some years ago, remember thinking Cornwell's book is one of the worst out there - and there are some contenders. It's almost a classic study in some sort of Captain Ahab folly - she becomes so focused on this theory, that the universe is bent to accommodate it.

Sickert's just an artist and JTR was part of the world in which he was operating. Artists reflect their worlds. He too, may have had an obsession with JTR (I keep writing "JRT" then have this image in my head of a murderous jack russell terrier).

As Cochise says, not enough hard data for us to ever know anything - a bit like some of the more compelling cases in our own lifetimes - and that is precisely why it is so compelling. FWIW, I think Kosminski is the strongest candidate (not that the shawl DNA thing convinces me of anything, but for other reasons) but I still think it's more likely that it's someone else entirely who isn't even a name on a census. Having spend a couple decades often chasing people who disappear in Victorian England without actually being dead. People who would never be findable unless you get lucky. 19thc cities are full of them and no place moreso than London.

(ETA: To clarify, my targets have been people more like the victims, than JRT - women whose lives fell apart, and then had to vanish into the anonynmity of a city with a fake name, and I've seen a surprising number of them. They never turn up again. Not even in death records, or rather, not under their birth/married names).

Exactly - Patricia Cornwell's book was very interesting, but she ignored anything which did not pertain to her theory.
And it would have been so easy to come and go in those days, nameless and faceless.
Was there ever anything discovered about that 'Batty Street Lodger'?