Jeffrey Epstein Suicide Or Murder: Speculation

maximus otter

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#61
They fell asleep, all at the same time, yea, right
They were both working long overtime to make up for staff shortages.

Let’s not forget that - even if Epstein’s suicide watch had been continued - he would have been visited only every 30 minutes. That’s plenty of time for a resourceful man to top himself.

On the flip side, the autopsy reveals that his hyoid bone was broken during the alleged suicide by hanging. This apparently occurs only in a minority of such suicides, and is more common in homicides.

maximus otter
 

ChasFink

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#63
...Let’s not forget that - even if Epstein’s suicide watch had been continued - he would have been visited only every 30 minutes. That’s plenty of time for a resourceful man to top himself....
Actually, that's not exactly right. Under the normal conditions at the time of his death, he should have been visited every 30 minutes. A suicide watch is constant, with logging every 15 minutes, and would remove anything he could use to hang himself from the cell. That being said, though, it's apparently not normal to keep a suicide watch going for more than a few days.
 

dr wu

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#64
Alternative take...

Billionaire with dirt on many major politicians and public figures is in jail and facing life inside, issues a "Get me the fuck out of here or I show and tell everything" warning and his friends arrange for his suicide and a convenient picture of his corpse on a gurney, before he spirits away for some plastic surgery and a new life with a new identity somewhere remote...
Well...this is the conspiracy forum....
LOL
 

INT21

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#65
Alternative take...

Billionaire with dirt on many major politicians and public figures is in jail and facing life inside, issues a "Get me the fuck out of here or I show and tell everything" warning and his friends arrange for his suicide and a convenient picture of his corpse on a gurney, before he spirits away for some plastic surgery and a new life with a new identity somewhere remote...
While he was alive he was possibly a threat to many. So time to shut him up. A new identity wouldn't have necessarily kept him quiet.
 

uair01

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#67
https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2019/08/epstein-and-big-lie.html

Interesting observations in this blog post:

The biggest Epstein conspiracy mystery is not how he died. The more important mystery is how he managed to operate out in the open for 15-20 years. Rumors concerning Epstein and leading figures like Bill Clinton have been around for at least that long. I have been following his activities, at least casually, for well over a decade.

In the 1990s I was a Bill Clinton supporter. I voted for him twice and supported his efforts to move the democratic party in a centrist, pro-business direction. But my brother is a Republican. He fed me a steady stream of anti-Clinton information that I (at the time) dismissed as crazy right-wing conspiracy theories. However, with the advent of the internet in the late 90s it became easier to obtain information that was not filtered by corrupt mainstream media outlets. I gradually realized that at least some of my brother's claims were correct. For example, Clinton's first presidential bid was almost derailed by charges of adultery by women like Gennifer Flowers. Supporters like myself dismissed these charges as a right-wing smear. However, years later, Clinton admitted under oath that he had indeed had sex with Flowers.
 

INT21

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#68
His demise is the point of this thread. The above post looks like misdirection. 'Don't look here, look over there'.
 

dr wu

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#69
^ Well...the idea that politicians like Clinton have had extramarital affairs is common knowledge and this includes Trump and probably half the politicians in Washington. So there is no doubt that Epstein could have 'procured' women for many people in power that would like to remain anonymous. But as INT21 pointed out the thread is ostensibly about his death...though the reasons for it also play a part here.
I see no reason why he couldn't have killed himself...he no doubt knew his time was up. Is it possible someone had him killed?...sure, but as is usually the case always in these cases it is more about conspiracy theories than facts.
 

INT21

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#70
I can't see why he would kill himself based on the things he is alleged to have done. A very rich guy with contacts .

it does look like extremely bad behaviour, underage girls and all that. But I don't see anyone accusing him of forced sex i.e rape. So while he was indeed in deep doo doo, he would have survived it.

It does look as if he may have been in a position to point the finger at others though.

So murder is looking very likely.
 

ChasFink

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#71
it does look like extremely bad behaviour, underage girls and all that. But I don't see anyone accusing him of forced sex i.e rape.
Setting aside the fact that, legally, sex with underage girls is rape, I have heard at least one of his accusers say it was forced. There does seem to be quite an air of intimidation and betrayal of trust leading to unwanted - if not vigorously rejected - sexual activity involving underage girls and very young women.
 

INT21

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#72
Agreed that it is 'technical' rape. But as rape is defined as sexual intercourse with a woman without her consent, the matter of age becomes a grey area. There are a lot of very young girls out there humping on a regular basis. But it is with their consent so the question of rape doesn't come into it. Moral turpitude certainly does.
 

kamalktk

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#73
Epstein was sued by a 13 year old for non-consensual rape. The person also filed suit at the same time against at least one other well known person for the same thing. The suits were dropped when the plaintiff began receiving death threats, so the cases did not proceed.
 

Tribble

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#74
However, years later, Clinton admitted under oath that he had indeed had sex with Flowers.
"Bill, are these... pollen stains on your pants?"

Anyway... verdict's in but that's not going to stop the conspiracy theories.

Jeffrey's Epstein's death in a Manhattan jail cell has officially been ruled a suicide by hanging, according to the New York medical examiner.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49377421
 

Tribble

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#77
What did he hang himself with?
He appeared to have tied a bedsheet to the top of a set of bunk beds, then knelt toward the floor with enough force that he broke several bones in his neck, officials said.
His suicide followed an apparent attempt to kill himself in late July, and came 12 days after prison staff had recommended he be removed from suicide watch and returned to the wing in which he had been housed before.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/16/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy-results.html
 

Shady

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#78
So, he tried to commit suicide, then after 12 days they figured he would be ok, so were any of these people who decided to take him off of this watch a psychiatrist? and did they seriously think that after 12 days that somebody would suddenly think, nah, i wont try that again?
 

Yithian

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#80
I can't see why he would kill himself based on the things he is alleged to have done. A very rich guy with contacts .

it does look like extremely bad behaviour, underage girls and all that. But I don't see anyone accusing him of forced sex i.e rape. So while he was indeed in deep doo doo, he would have survived it.

It does look as if he may have been in a position to point the finger at others though.

So murder is looking very likely.
His money got him off associated crimes with incredibly (literally incredibly--look up the details) light punishment, the outrage about which had been steadily mounting in the media and public discourse as the details became more widely known, and those who facilitated his cushy wrist-slap were being questioned more vigorously and slowly brought to account.

It must have been clear to Epstein that a second such escape would be impossible even if his wealthy friends hadn't been assiduously arming themselves with the longest barge-poles money can buy.

He was fucked and his two big options were wholesale bean-spillage or self-destruction.

I don't know whether he opted for the latter at this stage, but I am certain that powerful people were terrified that he was drifting towards the former.
 

Mikefule

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#81
I get that.
In which case I would have thought it would be wise to prohibit ANY conspiracy threads implicating living people.
If we can't float any memes based on what's being claimed on the Internet, then what is the point of the thread?
There are three cases to consider:

1) Factually based comment and analysis. (Made up example: Fred has denied ever meeting Jim, but the record shows were both directors of Acme Anvils Inc., and here's a picture of them on Jim's yacht surrounded by underage girls. Acme went bust, Jim left the country for 5 years and escaped prosecution, but Fred went to jail for 5 years. Therefore Fred has lied, and Fred has a motive for revenge.)

2) Obviously absurd humour which reflects ideas that may be widespread in the mainstream media.

3) Personal attacks, slander, and libel, even when they are dressed up as humour. This can be actionable.

The difference between 2 and 3 is subjective, and I would not want the moderators of this forum to end up having to field legal correspondence and possibly face penalties.

Moreover, both 2 and 3 can easily drift into partisan politics, and this is not the place for that.

From a Fortean perspective, I personally feel it would be preferable to stick mainly to 1 above.
 

INT21

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#83
Well, the powers that be have declared it was suicide.

Lawyers will be browsing next years Mercedes catalog.
 

Wotan Mjolnir

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#84
As far as I can tell, one of four things has happened, none of which should be acceptable:

1. One of the highest profile prisoners, who apparently has the power to have a significant impact on an awful lot of powerful people and who has recently made an attempt to commit suicide has been able to actually commit suicide, when all efforts should have been made to prevent this from happening

2. That prisoner was effectively allowed to commit suicide by people looking the other way, possibly due to being encouraged to do so by outside forces.

3. That prisoner was murdered in his cell by interested parties, with the prison having to be complicit in this.

4. The prisoner never died, but was removed from prison, and was replaced with another body (real or fake) which was removed and decalred dead by suicide. Very much the tin-foil hat option.

I can't think of another situation that could fit the known facts of this case. None of these situations should be tolerated, and a full investigation should be carried out to determine what actually happened. The fact that the narrative is already being provided that it was option 1 is not surprising, as this is the least toxic option to the powers that be. I fully expect low-level heads to roll, but nobody that has a connection to any of the major players in the allegations will be harmed, unless the investigation into the sex-trafficking allegations progresses - which is not something I have any real confidence will happen, sadly.
 

McAvennie

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#86
I'm sure he has nothing to do with this.

Also sure his obvious steroid use won't lead to a untimely demise any time soon.
 

McAvennie

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#88
The whole thing about Ghislaine Maxwell being photographed 'randomly' at an In-N-Out Burger. Then it turns out the photo was staged, and Photoshopped. Why?

Strange Photoshop edits too, erasing a trash can from the background, adding in a different movie poster on a billboard with the words "Good Boys".

Seemingly she was reading a book in the picture called "The Book of Honor: The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives".

Is this meant to be some kind of coded message? In-N-Out... As in Epstein was in jail and now is out as he never died and his death was staged by powerful friends to get him off the hook and out of trouble?

Furthermore, why has she not been arrested as an accomplice to his acts? She has been cited as his procurer, surely given his alleged crimes she warrants questioning in relation to his crimes?
 
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EnolaGaia

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#89
A new twist ... Epstein signed a will 2 days before he died. Regardless of its contents, it will undoubtedly be at the center of legal battles for years to come. It's not clear that the existence of this will clarifies the suicide versus murder issue.

Records: Epstein signed will 2 days before jailhouse suicide

Jeffrey Epstein signed a will just two days before he killed himself in jail, new court records show, opening a new legal front in what could be a long battle over the financier’s fortune.

Court papers filed last week in the U.S. Virgin Islands list no details of beneficiaries but valued the estate at more than $577 million, including more than $56 million in cash.

The existence of the will, first reported by the New York Post, raised new questions about Epstein’s final days inside the Metropolitan Correctional Center, where he was awaiting trial on federal sex trafficking and conspiracy charges.

Epstein signed the document Aug. 8. Less than 48 hours later, he was found dead in his cell, prompting an investigation that has cast a harsh light on staffing shortages at the Manhattan detention center. ...
FULL STORY: https://www.apnews.com/fdf91a7a41b941cbade9c2f55ddf60f7
 

PeteS

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#90
A new twist ... Epstein signed a will 2 days before he died. Regardless of its contents, it will undoubtedly be at the center of legal battles for years to come. It's not clear that the existence of this will clarifies the suicide versus murder issue.


FULL STORY: https://www.apnews.com/fdf91a7a41b941cbade9c2f55ddf60f7
I wonder what proportion of his $577m estate will end up in the pockets of lawyers representing interested parties. (I would guess 90%). No matter how much "vigorous" investigation is done, I suspect this will be one of those cases where the real truth will never be known. Appalling indictment of how the rich and powerful get protected until of course their usefulness comes to an end.
 
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