JFK: Kennedy Assassination Etc.

Who killed JFK?

  • Lee Harvey Oswald

    Votes: 26 28.6%
  • Mafia

    Votes: 6 6.6%
  • CIA/FBI

    Votes: 31 34.1%
  • Cubans

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • KGB

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • The Illuminati/Masons/Lizards

    Votes: 8 8.8%
  • all of the above

    Votes: 18 19.8%

  • Total voters
    91

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Oliver Stone's 4 part Destiny Betrayed airs in the UK on Sky Documentaries Tuesday-Friday nights (Part 1 also has a showing in the early hours of Tuesday morning)
In the USA this documentary is called 'JFK Revisited - Through the Looking Glass' and is available right now on premium cable channels which we don't subscribe to, but sooner or later will show up on other channels or youtube, I'll have to wait to see it. Thank you for the info, hadn't heard of it!
 

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Yup. Can anyone say (no I'm not going to put the political spectrum signifier you know I want to right here in these here parentheses) agenda?
 

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I think the theatre visit was just in panic after shooting Tippit- (if he did shoot him that is.)
I've always thought that the killing of Tippit makes no sense whatsoever. For one thing, the witnesses were unable to agree on anything related to the shooting....and, why would the gunman stop and manually eject the spent cartridges unless it was to lay a bit of handy evidence around?

I recall reading an interesting theory a few years ago about the physical likeness between both Tippit and Kennedy. Something about swapping corpses as I remember. Unfortunately I cannot find the site I read it on anymore.
 

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I've always thought that the killing of Tippit makes no sense whatsoever. For one thing, the witnesses were unable to agree on anything related to the shooting....and, why would the gunman stop and manually eject the spent cartridges unless it was to lay a bit of handy evidence around?
I wonder if Oswald was heading back to Dealey Plaza. He was going in that direction.
 

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But did he?
After three or four shots at close range?
Would he need to reload?

With the greatest respect, 'to reload' is a crap answer.

Try checking the facts ... "To reload" isn't a crap answer, because it's what Oswald demonstrably did.

He left his rooming house with the .38 revolver in his jacket pocket. He was intercepted approximately a mile from the rooming house by Tippit - a patrolman identifying Oswald as a figure consistent with the BOLOs that had been broadcast multiple times since the Kennedy shooting in Dealey Plaza.

The evidence indicates Oswald fired 5 times during his encounter with Tippit. Four bullets hit Tippit, and the mismatch between the number of cartridge cases recovered at the scene and the bullets retrieved from Tippit's body indicates a fifth one had been fired but missed Tippit.

Regardless of what had happened at Dealey Plaza, Oswald was acting furtive and agitated. He'd just been stopped by a cop, whom he unexpectedly shot. As he walked away from the shooting scene, multiple witnesses testified he was shaking the revolver as if to remove the spent cartridges. That particular S&W revolver had a sliding ejector. Oswald apparently didn't initially use it, because the spent cartridge cases would remain in their chambers without either using the ejector or manually removing them (e.g., by shaking the pistol).

He'd shot a cop with multiple witnesses on the scene, so the shit had most definitely hit the fan. He'd already demonstrated his inclination to meet police inquiry with gunplay. Reloading his only weapon would have been a top priority.

When apprehended at the Texas Theatre Oswald still had the revolver. He pulled it out from his waistband and attempted to shoot one of the arresting officers, who grabbed the pistol in such a way as to prevent the hammer from impacting the chambered round.

The revolver held 6 live rounds, and there were an additional 5 loose cartridges in Oswald's pocket.

He'd reloaded.
 

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Thats a good point. Last time I shot somebody, my first thought was to return to the scene of the crime. Just made sense really.
Sarcasm aside, I never said Oswald had shot Kennedy or that returning was his ''first thought''. It was probably his 100th thought at least.

I'm just trying to ascertain why he was walking east on east 10th street towards (the direction of) Dealey Plaza. In any case, even if he had shot him, as you believe, I think it's quite possible that once he'd calmed down and left his rooming house, that he intended to return and to mingle in amongst the crowds and confusion that was going on there as if he'd never left.
Don't forget, until Tippit pulled him over he probably didn't think he was under suspicion. He had even met his manager and a cop in the book depository as they were on their way up to the sixth floor and his manager had told the cop that he (Oswald) was ok and they carried on up. As far as he knew at that point he hadn't been suspected.

As for Tippit, 12 witnesses say they saw Oswald shoot him. This is on straight, wide Texas streets on a bright, sunny day, not some old European town with twisty, narrow streets and lots of places to hide.
(Having said that, apparently there were witnesses who weren't called to the Warren commission who say they saw two men running from the scene).
 

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The Lawfare Podcast: The JFK Assassination Documents, with Gerald Posner and Mark Zaid
Jen Patja Howell Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 5:01 AM
President Biden recently authorized the release of almost 1,500 documents related to the JFK assassination. But ten times that number still have had their release deferred. What might be in them? What's holding them back from release? And how did we get here?

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-jfk-assassination-documents-gerald-posner-and-mark-zaid
 

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In the USA this documentary is called 'JFK Revisited - Through the Looking Glass' and is available right now on premium cable channels which we don't subscribe to, but sooner or later will show up on other channels or youtube, I'll have to wait to see it. Thank you for the info, hadn't heard of it!
I think that's what the cut-down movie length version is called - Sky are showing that title next week in the UK too.
 

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I really never understood just why they fastened onto Oswald as the suspect in such a small time period. I understand that it was suspicious that he left the TSBD immediately, but did the Dallas police account for every single Depository employee that quickly, and had they accounted for every single person in the surrounding buildings as well? And shouldn't they have been concentrating on the surrounding areas where shooters could have been hiding.
Supposedly, 15 minutes after JFK was shot, Tippit was given a description of Oswald, that's pretty quick.
Patsy.
 

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The Lawfare Podcast: The JFK Assassination Documents, with Gerald Posner and Mark Zaid
Jen Patja Howell Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 5:01 AM
President Biden recently authorized the release of almost 1,500 documents related to the JFK assassination. But ten times that number still have had their release deferred. What might be in them? What's holding them back from release? And how did we get here?

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-jfk-assassination-documents-gerald-posner-and-mark-zaid
And I bet 50 years from now, they'll still be releasing bits and pieces of useless information, acting like they're doing us a favor. LOL
 

EnolaGaia

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... Supposedly, 15 minutes after JFK was shot, Tippit was given a description of Oswald, that's pretty quick.
Patsy.

Witness Howard Brennan was at ground level, directly across the street from the corner of the Texas School Book Depository in which the shooter's sixth-floor window was located. He testified he saw a man looking out of the open window on the sixth floor prior to the motorcade's arrival, and he'd seen the same man holding a rifle as of the moment following the last shot fired. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting he approached a policeman, told him he'd seen a shooter, and gave the initial description that was broadcast.

You can review his testimony to the Warren Commission at:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0076a.htm (and following pages)
 

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Witness Howard Brennan was at ground level, directly across the street from the corner of the Texas School Book Depository in which the shooter's sixth-floor window was located. He testified he saw a man looking out of the open window on the sixth floor prior to the motorcade's arrival, and he'd seen the same man holding a rifle as of the moment following the last shot fired. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting he approached a policeman, told him he'd seen a shooter, and gave the initial description that was broadcast.

You can review his testimony to the Warren Commission at:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0076a.htm (and following pages)
He did say that he couldn't be positive it was Oswald though.
 

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He did say that he couldn't be positive it was Oswald though.
True ...

The question to which I was responding wasn't about any positive ID. It concerned how an APB / BOLO with a personal description could have been issued so soon after the shooting. The description Tippit had was the one given by Brennan immediately following the shooting.
 

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Witness Howard Brennan was at ground level, directly across the street from the corner of the Texas School Book Depository in which the shooter's sixth-floor window was located. He testified he saw a man looking out of the open window on the sixth floor prior to the motorcade's arrival, and he'd seen the same man holding a rifle as of the moment following the last shot fired. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting he approached a policeman, told him he'd seen a shooter, and gave the initial description that was broadcast.

You can review his testimony to the Warren Commission at:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0076a.htm (and following pages)
Yes, you're absolutely right about that -
But how about all the other witnesses running towards the grassy knoll area, the Newmans on the grass with their children, people who were saying that shots came from the front of the motorcade, just seems they latched onto Oswald within moments.
I've been trying to see if there are statements from the actual police officers present at the scene during those moments.
 

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Yes, you're absolutely right about that -
But how about all the other witnesses running towards the grassy knoll area, the Newmans on the grass with their children, people who were saying that shots came from the front of the motorcade, just seems they latched onto Oswald within moments.
I've been trying to see if there are statements from the actual police officers present at the scene during those moments.

There are several things to consider ...

(1) As Max pointed out, there was echoing off the buildings surrounding Dealey Plaza. I think it was in the late 1970s when Bell Labs ran a series of experiments / analyses and matched the shots / echoes from November 1963 on-the-scene recordings against simulations conducted in the plaza. Their conclusion was that the actual / original shot sounds came from the depository building. Owing to the echoes ...

(2) At the time there were witnesses who thought shots had been heard from most all directions (e.g., from street level behind the motorcade; from the building across the plaza from the depository building, etc.). I recall seeing a newswire photo that showed witnesses on the scene pointing in multiple different directions. In the decades since the various official investigations the only witness reports that have been repeatedly dredged up and highlighted have been the ones that support alternative theories - i.e., only the reports that support the theories being pushed as time went on. In other words - selection bias.

(3) The street-level witnesses were in the plaza to see the motorcade pass by. Anyone who was paying attention had their eyes (and ears) oriented toward the president's limousine. The motorcade was approximately half-way through the plaza's visible path of travel when the shots occurred. Witnesses facing toward the limousine moving in the direction of its exit (i.e., the overpass) would naturally hear echoes from that direction more clearly.

If you want to survey the entire range of documented reports you'll have to dig a lot deeper than most all the mass market books - i.e., all the way down to police reports and original witness statements.
 

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There are several things to consider ...

(1) As Max pointed out, there was echoing off the buildings surrounding Dealey Plaza. I think it was in the late 1970s when Bell Labs ran a series of experiments / analyses and matched the shots / echoes from November 1963 on-the-scene recordings against simulations conducted in the plaza. Their conclusion was that the actual / original shot sounds came from the depository building. Owing to the echoes ...

(2) At the time there were witnesses who thought shots had been heard from most all directions (e.g., from street level behind the motorcade; from the building across the plaza from the depository building, etc.). I recall seeing a newswire photo that showed witnesses on the scene pointing in multiple different directions. In the decades since the various official investigations the only witness reports that have been repeatedly dredged up and highlighted have been the ones that support alternative theories - i.e., only the reports that support the theories being pushed as time went on. In other words - selection bias.

(3) The street-level witnesses were in the plaza to see the motorcade pass by. Anyone who was paying attention had their eyes (and ears) oriented toward the president's limousine. The motorcade was approximately half-way through the plaza's visible path of travel when the shots occurred. Witnesses facing toward the limousine moving in the direction of its exit (i.e., the overpass) would naturally hear echoes from that direction more clearly.

If you want to survey the entire range of documented reports you'll have to dig a lot deeper than most all the mass market books - i.e., all the way down to police reports and original witness statements.
I agree that the echo in that area would lead to confusion as to how many shots were actually fired by people lining the street, but it's the account of the railway workers stood on the overpass that interests me. Also, I can't see how Oswald's first shot, which occured as soon as Kennedy turned onto Elm- before Zapruder started filming again- and allegedly hit the traffic light arm, could have been deflected all the way down to where James Tague was stood over on Commerce- (hitting an inspection cover on the way). However, wherever the bullet had come from, when tests were done on the curb the bullet mark didn't have any copper traces meaning that it's jacket had already hit something else on its way to Tague's curb- I'm just not sure it was from that particular alleged shot or place.
 

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As I've said several times, I love Oliver Stone's JFK.

I thought some members might be interested in his latest documentary on the case:

JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass (2021)​

Thirty years after his film JFK, filmmaker Oliver Stone takes viewers on a journey though recently declassified evidence in the assassination of President Kennedy -- the most consequential American murder mystery of the twentieth century. Joined by Whoopi Goldberg and Donald Sutherland, as well as a distinguished team of forensics, medical and ballistics experts, historians, and witnesses, Stone presents compelling evidence that in the Kennedy case 'conspiracy theory' is now 'conspiracy fact.'

Video Here (c. 2hrs):
https://www.documentarymania.com/player.php?title=JFK+Revisited:+Through+the+Looking+Glass
 

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As I've said several times, I love Oliver Stone's JFK.

I thought some members might be interested in his latest documentary on the case:

JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass (2021)​

Thirty years after his film JFK, filmmaker Oliver Stone takes viewers on a journey though recently declassified evidence in the assassination of President Kennedy -- the most consequential American murder mystery of the twentieth century. Joined by Whoopi Goldberg and Donald Sutherland, as well as a distinguished team of forensics, medical and ballistics experts, historians, and witnesses, Stone presents compelling evidence that in the Kennedy case 'conspiracy theory' is now 'conspiracy fact.'

Video Here (c. 2hrs):
https://www.documentarymania.com/player.php?title=JFK+Revisited:+Through+the+Looking+Glass
Thank You so much for this! I'm going to watch as soon as I have time, beyond thrilled to see this!!
 

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He'd reloaded.

There is enough witness testimony to question whether or not he had fired the gun the requisite number of times in the first place. Therefore the number of rounds still in the gun is secondary as to who shot the officer.
Is loading a six shot revolver whilst walking down the street in Dallas normal? Would it be noticed? How many spare shells did Oswald have in his pocket? How many do you think he thought he'd need?
Again, the greatest respect, but I do think that you are way off the ball here. Do you have any answers to the strange likeness of Tippit and JFK?
 

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... How many spare shells did Oswald have in his pocket? How many do you think he thought he'd need? ...

See my earlier post. When apprehended at the Texas Theatre his revolver held a full 6 live rounds - 5 (some would still argue 4) of which represented reloaded chambers following the Tippit shooting. There were an additional 5 cartridges in his jacket pocket.
 

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I would be interested to know what anyone thinks of this theory- that Oswald's first shot hit the traffic light pole and then ricochet down to where Tague was stood;
 

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I've never seen this info before, anyone else?

http://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/Leaving_the_TSBD.html
Some interesting stuff there! Thanks.

I have heard about the alleged police car beeping its horn outside Oswald's rooming house and also that someone matching Oswald's description got into a station wagon on Elm.

Stuart Reed needs investigating for sure. He comes all the way from Panama to ignore Kennedy, but photograph the bus and just happens to be outside the theatre when Oswald is brought out?

How did Oswald get from his rooming house to the theatre in 4 minutes? (Need to check this).

What was Tippits role in all this?

Who was the Blond woman who got on and off when Oswald did and who asked for a transfer even though the train station was only a few blocks away?
 

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Some interesting stuff there! Thanks.

I have heard about the alleged police car beeping its horn outside Oswald's rooming house and also that someone matching Oswald's description got into a station wagon on Elm.

Stuart Reed needs investigating for sure. He comes all the way from Panama to ignore Kennedy, but photograph the bus and just happens to be outside the theatre when Oswald is brought out?

How did Oswald get from his rooming house to the theatre in 4 minutes? (Need to check this).

What was Tippits role in all this?

Who was the Blond woman who got on and off when Oswald did and who asked for a transfer even though the train station was only a few blocks away?
Every single time I look at the JFK assassination, I come away with more and more questions, and less and less answers.
And there's now a 'Jesse Price' who saw a man running from the picket fence area, who was ignored by the FBI, he is written about here, under 'Testimony of Eyewitnesses', another witness I hadn't heard of before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories

An interesting read, actually. With so much conflicting testimony, how can one really think it was as simple as Oswald firing alone from a window. JMO
 
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