JFK: Kennedy Assassination Etc.

[maximus otter]

There are so many sites with conflicting information on JFK's assassination, but the doctors who were actually there at Parkland Memorial Hospital tell their experiences, such as this one:

John F. Kennedy emergency room doctors confirm he was shot from front​

“We Were There,” compiled the recollections of the doctors and medical students at Parkland the day Kennedy arrived. It is written by Dr. Allen Childs, who was also at Parkland, but didn't operate on the president. The recollections are from oral histories, interviews and letters.

“They were unanimous that the neck wound was an entry wound,” wrote Childs in the book provided to Secrets in advance of its Nov. 6 release.

Dr. Joe D. Goldstrich said, “the appearance of the neck wound is burned into my memory. It was a perfectly round hole between nickel and quarter size, in the middle of the front of the neck, just below the Adam’s apple.”

Even more startling: One of the doctors, Ron Jones, said that assassination investigators knew of reports of a second shooter but ignored them. He’s quoted being told by Warren Commission investigator Arlen Specter, who went on to be a Pennsylvania senator, “We have people who would testify that they saw somebody shoot the president from the front. But we don’t want to interview them, and I don’t want you saying anything about that either.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...y-room-doctors-confirm-he-was-shot-from-front

I haven't come across any official explanation, or even acknowledgement, of statements such as these, which is disturbing in itself.

l respect the opinions of the doctors, but bullets - especially round-nosed military FMJ bullets - can play strange tricks inside human or animal bodies. Similar ammunition, but in 7mm rather than 6.5mm, was used by the Boers in the 1899-1902 war.

British troops referred to the projectiles as “pencil bullets” from their shape, and coined the phrase “pencilling through” to describe the effect they often had on striking a human body. Being extremely hard, and very stable - therefore accurate - in flight, they often would not tumble inside the body, but would drill straight through. If they didn’t strike the heart or central nervous system, this might well result in a survivable wound.

maximus otter

 

[Ascalon]

From an article in the New York Times about Paul Landis, one of the JFK Secret Service agents:

What it comes down to is a copper-jacketed 6.5-millimeter projectile. The Warren Commission decided that one of the bullets fired that day struck the president from behind, exited from the front of his throat and continued on to hit Mr. Connally, somehow managing to injure his back, chest, wrist and thigh. It seemed incredible that a single bullet could do all that, so skeptics called it the magic bullet theory.

Investigators came to that conclusion partly because the bullet was found on a stretcher believed to have held Mr. Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital, so they assumed it had exited his body during efforts to save his life. But Mr. Landis, who was never interviewed by the Warren Commission, said that is not what happened.

In fact, he said, he was the one who found the bullet — and he found it not in the hospital near Mr. Connally but in the presidential limousine lodged in the back of the seat behind where Kennedy was sitting.

When he spotted the bullet after the motorcade arrived at the hospital, he said he grabbed it to thwart souvenir hunters. Then, for reasons that still seem fuzzy even to him, he said he entered the hospital and placed it next to Kennedy on the president’s stretcher, assuming it could somehow help doctors figure out what happened. At some point, he now guesses, the stretchers must have been pushed together and the bullet was shaken from one to another.

“There was nobody there to secure the scene, and that was a big, big bother to me,” Mr. Landis said. “All the agents that were there were focused on the president.” A crowd was gathering. “This was all going on so quickly. And I was just afraid that — it was a piece of evidence, that I realized right away. Very important. And I didn’t want it to disappear or get lost. So it was, ‘Paul, you’ve got to make a decision,’ and I grabbed it.’”

Mr. Landis theorizes that the bullet struck Kennedy in the back but for some reason was undercharged and did not penetrate deeply, therefore popping back out before the president’s body was removed from the limousine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/09/us/politics/jfk-assassination-witness-paul-landis.html

I find this utterly incredible - in the sense that it utterly lacks credibility.

For a trained officer and agent to so badly handle evidence is simply not credible. This is either deep level arse covering or outright subterfuge.

Also, I doubt the ability the average ER doctor to assess the ballistic implications of a bullet wound, unless they had specific experience. Unless you know what you are looking at, things can seem very counter untuitive.

Remember the whole ballistics thing that was done on the Zapruder evidence that showed the type of round used in hitting the back of the head would cause a pressure wave in the soft tissue, that released by bullet exit at the front, would appear to drive the head backwords with the jet of emissions?

Again, if you didn't understand the physics, it would appear as if something hit from the front.

That is not so say there wasn't a second shooter, but for the observed wounds, there has been pretty comprehensive explanations found, IIRC.

Also the magic bullet theory. Wasn't this comprehensively explained by the fact that Governor Connally was actually sitting on a fold out jump seat that was in fact inboard and down on the level of the other seats. Once this was accounted for, plus his slightly contorted position in terms of how he was sat, suddenly lines up the trajectory? I remember a very comprehensive doc on this around the early 2000s.

Also, good report here, albeit from Gov sources.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

l respect the opinions of the doctors, but bullets - especially round-nosed military FMJ bullets - can play strange tricks inside human or animal bodies. Similar ammunition, but in 7mm rather than 6.5mm, was used by the Boers in the 1899-1902 war.

British troops referred to the projectiles as “pencil bullets” from their shape, and coined the phrase “pencilling through” to describe the effect they often had on striking a human body. Being extremely hard, and very stable - therefore accurate - in flight, they often would not tumble inside the body, but would drill straight through. If they didn’t strike the heart or central nervous system, this might well result in a survivable wound.

maximus otter

Have you read Dr. Richard Crenshaw's book, 'JFK Has Been Shot', detailing his experience trying to save JFK as a surgeon.
Here's an interview with Dr. Crenshaw:

Stating that JFK was shot from the front.
Brave of him to come forward.

 

[maximus otter]

Have you read Dr. Richard Crenshaw's book, 'JFK Has Been Shot', detailing his experience trying to save JFK as a surgeon.
Here's an interview with Dr. Crenshaw:

Stating that JFK was shot from the front.
Brave of him to come forward.

I haven't, no. The JFK assassination isn't a particular interest of mine.

maximus otter

 

[charliebrown]

Just today JFK secret service agent, Paul Landis now 88, will release a book called “ The Final Witness” in which he found a bullet half way in the back seat.

He told no one until now, but he laid the bullet on JFK’s gurney causing everyone to think this bullet was from Governor Connally’s injury.

This will only add more “ fuel to the fire “ that there was more than one shooter since the bullet had to be shot from the front to be in the backseat of the car.

The official report insists all bullets were from Oswald’s gun

 

[Lord Lucan]

Just today JFK secret service agent, Paul Landis now 88, will release a book called “ The Final Witness” in which he found a bullet half way in the back seat.

He told no one until now, but he laid the bullet on JFK’s gurney causing everyone to think this bullet was from Governor Connally’s injury.

This will only add more “ fuel to the fire “ that there was more than one shooter since the bullet had to be shot from the front to be in the backseat of the car.

The official report insists all bullets were from Oswald’s gun

More on this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-new...sination-opens-up-for-first-time-192653893952

This is also interesting:

 

[Lord Lucan]

The Facebook page of Secret Service agent Clint Hill (the agent seen climbing onto the back of the Presidential limousine after the shooting). He believes Oswald was the lone shooter & has stuck to his story since 1963, but he was a close to the assassination as anyone who was not inside the vehicle.

https://www.facebook.com/ClintHillSecretService

 

[charliebrown]

Well, this is fantastic.

The above video of nurse Hill confirms Paul Landis story that he secretly put the bullet he took out of the back car seat and place it on JFK’s gurney because she said she saw the bullet laying there next to the body.

What does this all mean ?

 

[Ascalon]

Even though this BBC News story gives a more fulsome account of the finding of the bullet and its subsequent depositing on the gurney, I still find it hard to swallow that such a trained officer would act in this manner. And to not make himself known to the inquiry either is baffling.

 

[Feech23]

Was he a rookie officer though? Did he place the bullet out of fear of being found to have tampered with the scene, Its weird he has come forward after all these years. Hard to know what it means though.

 

[Ascalon]

Was he a rookie officer though? Did he place the bullet out of fear of being found to have tampered with the scene, Its weird he has come forward after all these years. Hard to know what it means though.

That's a fair point, but training would cover something as basic as evidence handling and crime scene processing. Even though forensics would ahve been much more limited then than now, the theory would certainly have been the same.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Was he a rookie officer though? Did he place the bullet out of fear of being found to have tampered with the scene, Its weird he has come forward after all these years. Hard to know what it means though.

It's certainly a very odd thing to have done. I agree with Ascalon - waiting for a forensics team to arrive would have been the done thing even back then.

 

[OrsonSwells]

It does seem odd, but I think you could argue the apparent strange behaviour of Landis can be explained by the trauma of the events. After witnessing the assassination at such close quarters he will have been suffering from PTSD. In the circumstances, he won't have been thinking straight at all, and any irrational behaviour in the aftermath could easily be put down to that.

 

[Tunn11]

For what this is worth, I don't know enough about this topic. I posted about this in the "Forteans interested in true crime thread."

In a book called: “The Outfit” by Gus Russo. Bloomsbury 2001 (USA) 2003 (GB)

There is a lot about Llewelyn Morris “Curly” Humphries, the mastermind of the mob after Capone's incarceration.

They worked with Kennedy senior (JFK's father) probably without JFK's knowledge to get him elected - and ironically Bobby to Attorney General where he went to war with the mob.

Curly's ex wife, with whom he remained on good terms reported Curly's comment at the time of the assassination and the arrest of Oswald.

“It wasn't us but they've got the wrong guy.”

 

[uair01]

From Twitter

Tom Holland @holland_tom
I learn that J W Fritz, the Dallas police captain who led the investigation into the JFK assassination, grew up in Roswell

Jonathan Allan @meolscop1978
It's all falling into place.

Tom Holland @holland_tom
It certainly is

Note: Tom Holland runs this great history podcast, he is *not* serious:
https://therestishistory.com/episodes/

 

[cycleboy2]

Interview with Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent who threw himself on to President Kennedy after Kennedy had been shot. Not a big fan of conspiracy theories...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ssination-clint-hill-secret-service-interview

 

[Lord Lucan]

Interview with Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent who threw himself on to President Kennedy after Kennedy had been shot. Not a big fan of conspiracy theories...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ssination-clint-hill-secret-service-interview

I have signed copies of the books Mr Hill has written. The man was as close to the action as anyone (aside from those in the limo) and was Mrs Kennedy's personal Secret Service Agent. They're worth reading.

Here's his website:

https://clinthillsecretservice.com/

 

[Lord Lucan]

Just finished watching this excellent video. Very thorough:

The Kennedy Assassination: Inside the Book Depository​

 

[cycleboy2]

Just finished watching this excellent video. Very thorough:

The Kennedy Assassination: Inside the Book Depository​

I'm liking that a lot - I was only going to watch one chapter now but watched the first five.

I like the non-sensationalist take and even the (presumably AI) voiced interviews, which feel pretty natural.

Great analysis of how Oswald got the job and the ever-changing plans for the route of the motorcade or whether there was even going to be a motorcade at all.

 

[Floyd1]

I've not seen the video yet but there is often talk about how the motorcade was originally going to go down Main street but then was (suspiciously) changed to Elm.

In fact, it had to go down Elm, as this was the only way to get onto the Stemmons freeway in the correct direction for Kennedy's next appointment at the Dalls Trade Mart.

 

[Swifty]

Just finished watching this excellent video. Very thorough:

The Kennedy Assassination: Inside the Book Depository​

Nice find mate .. that was concise and patient to the viewer, no drama music and I learned loads of new (to me) details from that without having to read probably about twenty books.

 

[Ascalon]

Anyone catch the doc on Channel 5 UK last night?

"JFK: What the Doctors Saw," focuses on the experience of the doctors and nurses who were on duty on the day that JFK was brought, mortally wounded, to the Parklands Hospital, in Dallas.

For anyone interested in the case, it is a good, in depth look at medical evidence, and inconsistencies.
One point, well made, is that even at the time, as the facility was the main trauma centre for the Dallas, Fort Worth area, they saw 3-5 gunshot wounds per day! So they were pretty familiar, though that said, they were more exposed to domestic, crime, and hunting incidents, rather then military or assassination type incidents — just a point of note.

Good piece here from the exec producer for Paramount/Disney, the makers.

 

[Floyd1]

Anyone catch the doc on Channel 5 UK last night?

"JFK: What the Doctors Saw," focuses on the experience of the doctors and nurses who were on duty on the day that JFK was brought, mortally wounded, to the Parklands Hospital, in Dallas.

For anyone interested in the case, it is a good, in depth look at medical evidence, and inconsistencies.
One point, well made, is that even at the time, as the facility was the main trauma centre for the Dallas, Fort Worth area, they saw 3-5 gunshot wounds per day! So they were pretty familiar, though that said, they were more exposed to domestic, crime, and hunting incidents, rather then military or assassination type incidents — just a point of note.

Good piece here from the exec producer for Paramount/Disney, the makers.

Yes, watched that Ascalon.
For all those Dr's to say the same thing is pretty relevant in my opinion.

My concern with the whole saga is not whether Oswald was the only shooter but whether he was involved at all.
As for the magic bullet..............

I don't however see how it could have been someone stood on the triple over-pass as there were three railway guys stood up there (some good interviews with them on youtube) and also the angle would have been wrong.
If it was a shot from the front as those Drs believe, it surely must have been someone on ground level?

And what was the mising bit from the Orville Nix film is what I want to know.

 

[Floyd1]

Just finished watching this excellent video. Very thorough:

The Kennedy Assassination: Inside the Book Depository​

Interesting one, but a bit glib of the narrator to state that it was all too much effort to have been anyone other than LHO.

Regarding the murder of Tippit, there are lots of descrepancies there that were glossed over here for a start- times, police radio call times altered/deleted, witness accounts of seeing two people running away, a police car beeping its horn outside Oswalds rooming house etc, a taxi journey that Oswald took after the bus became stuck in traffic.....................

 

[Lord Lucan]

Interesting one, but a bit glib of the narrator to state that it was all too much effort to have been anyone other than LHO.

Regarding the murder of Tippit, there are lots of descrepancies there that were glossed over here for a start- times, police radio call times altered/deleted, witness accounts of seeing two people running away, a police car beeping its horn outside Oswalds rooming house etc, a taxi journey that Oswald took after the bus became stuck in traffic.....................

All just another part of the mystery that I fear we will never know the definitive answer to.

 

[Mouldy13]

All just another part of the mystery that I fear we will never know the definitive answer to.

well you would say that

 

[Floyd1]

I don't have a problem with the 'magic bullet' theory. Quite plausible I'd say.

But, if that bullet fell out of Connally's thigh whilst on the trolley in the hospital and we're told that only two shots were fired-

1)Where did the bullet come from that hit the curb next to James Tague who was stood on Commerce street?
2)Why has Kennedy's brain vanished?

 

[Ascalon]

Having had a bit of rumination after seeing the Parklands doctors doc, I have say that an area not examined at all has been what the ballistics of the shooter in front might be.

If the throat wound was an entry wound, what was its trajectory?

Looking at JFK in the car, he was sitting so low that such an entrance wound would have had to come from a fairly low starting point, and would likely have come through the windscreen of the car, which was not recorded.

Also, that would have meant another exit wound on the back, which is not consistent with the rest of the findings.

On this day, 60 years to the day, there's still so much to know.

 

[Floyd1]

Having had a bit of rumination after seeing the Parklands doctors doc, I have say that an area not examined at all has been what the ballistics of the shooter in front might be.

If the throat wound was an exit wound, what was its trajectory?

Looking at JFK in the car, he was sitting so low that such an entrance wound would have had to come from a fairly low starting point, and would likely have come through the windscreen of the car, which was not recorded.

Also, that would have meant another exit wound on the back, which is not consistent with the rest of the findings.

On this day, 60 years to the day, there's still so much to know.

You mean an entrance wound?

There is some conjecture that the windscreen was desposed of for exactly this reason, but (I think Enola) mentions somewhere on here that the windscreen is still around somewhere.

My other problem is that if the 'magic bullet' went through 7 layers of clothing, and two people and yet was recovered, why did the alleged second (and final) bullet that hit Kennedy's head, explode into tiny fragments, only some of which were found in the front foot wells?

 

[Floyd1]

Having had a bit of rumination after seeing the Parklands doctors doc, I have say that an area not examined at all has been what the ballistics of the shooter in front might be.

If the throat wound was an exit wound, what was its trajectory?

Looking at JFK in the car, he was sitting so low that such an entrance wound would have had to come from a fairly low starting point, and would likely have come through the windscreen of the car, which was not recorded.

Also, that would have meant another exit wound on the back, which is not consistent with the rest of the findings.

On this day, 60 years to the day, there's still so much to know.

I'd have thought that for a shot to have come from the front, it would have had to have come from one of three places;
either from someone stood at, or near, the bridge abutment on the South side of Elm, or from the pedestrian walkway under the bridge on the North side (blue), or from up on the triple overpass bridge (where the railway workers were stood);