Jimmy Savile

[PeteByrdie]

A more innocent time, but suspicion is the lifeblood of this modern era, so looking back...

Old playlists are replete with references to underage lust. Neil Diamond - Girl, You'll Be a Woman Soon, Gary Puckett and The Union Gap - Young Girl, erm, there are probably some others. Okay, not exactly 'replete'. But when I hear both those songs, I cringe. Even though they're both quite good songs.

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

At least Ringo waited til they were 16.

 

[escargot]

Here's a recent Sky TV video about Rose West - Rose West Urged To Break Silence Over 'Killing'

It's about the murder of a teenager called Mary Bastholme, whom police believe to have been murdered by Fred West before he met Rose. Rose might know where Mary's body is hidden but probably won't tell anyone.

Caroline Owens, an early victim of Fred and Rose, was abducted and then raped by them. She went to the police but was treated badly by one particular detective, who derided her claims of sexual abuse and said things like 'Did he get a bit rough? You've had sex with other men, you like sex, don't you?'

(Back in 1982, a TV fly-on-the-wall documentary about the Thames Valley Police featured a young woman whose allegation of rape was treated in exactly this way. She was bullied into dropping the whole thing and sent away totally humiliated. When it was shown, there was public outrage and the force began re-evaluating their methods in such cases.)

This treatment further traumatised Owens. As she then didn't feel able to stand up in court and describe what had happened, the Wests were convicted of a lesser charge of indecent assault and fined £25 each. After that, none of their victims was allowed to escape alive.

So the consequence of that one detective's dismissal of a victim's genuine trauma was that the Wests were able to continue with their life of sexual abuse and murder instead of being locked up.

How many other victims of sexual assault have been called liars or fantasists, or just slags, and sent away by the police instead of being listened to?

Quite a few, according to what we're hearing about the Jimmy Savile affair.
People he attacked were

laughed at, ignored or told they were lucky to have received attention from him.

What have we learned? Nothing, it seems.

 

[Fanari_Lloyd]

So the consequence of that one detective's dismissal of a victim's genuine trauma was that the Wests were able to continue with their life of sexual abuse and murder instead of being locked up.

This is bloody disgusting; I didn't know that. I do know that the way rape is dealt with has been horrendous; I hoped things were better now.

Rose might know where Mary's body is hidden but probably won't tell anyone.

Shades of Myra Hindley. I wish she would, and there could be some closure. I didn't know there were still any 'possible' victims of that pair.

 

[escargot]

If you can, (as I don't know whether you're in the UK) you might have a look at the video. It explains that Fred West murdered several times before he met Rose and although some bodies were recovered, he is suspected of killing other women, especially Mary Bastholm and possibly some in Scotland.

There's a man called Robert Black in prison somewhere in Britain who abducted, raped and murdered young girls, dumping their bodies sometimes a hundred miles away. He too is suspected of killing many more victims who haven't been found and has been sentenced since for another murder committed 30-odd years ago.

When he and Rose West were sentenced withing a couple of years of each other, I remember thinking that between them they'd probably been responsible for nearly every missing child or teenager for decades.

 

[Fanari_Lloyd]

Yes, I am in the UK, Escargot.

I did get a book out of the library years ago about Fred and Rose West because Gloucester isn't far away, but I found it (and the whole thing) so upsetting that I think I made myself forget quite a lot about it. (The book was called Happy Like Murderers; it was bleak and - obviously - very disturbing, I thought). I do vaguely remember reading that Fred West probably killed before he met Rose but for some reason, over the years, I'd come to the conclusion that all the victims were accounted for.

There's a man called Robert Black in prison somewhere in Britain who abducted, raped and murdered young girls, dumping their bodies sometimes a hundred miles away. He too is suspected of killing many more victims who haven't been found and has been sentenced since for another murder committed 30-odd years ago.

When he and Rose West were sentenced withing a couple of years of each other, I remember thinking that between them they'd probably been responsible for nearly every missing child or teenager for decades.

I just googled Black. Bloody hell. Yes, thinking about it, it does seem very likely these people were responsible for far more crimes than they were convicted for.

I knew a guy who owned a small building business in the 80's/90's who said West had worked for him, cash-in-hand. Never knew whether to believe him or not, (because sensationalism) but at the time West was arrested and the bodies discovered he was seriously wondering if there were any bodies dumped under his building work. His firm covered Wiltshire/Gloucestershire/Oxfordshire area mainly, so maybe he did indeed employ West.

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

This is bloody disgusting; I didn't know that. I do know that the way rape is dealt with has been horrendous; I hoped things were better now.

They are.

Contrary to popular belief, most people who work for the police are in it for the right reasons. Most do genuinely want to help make their communities a better place.

Even if that wasn't the case, the scrutiny at all levels is so intense I doubt many would risk 'laughing it off' (especially post-Savile).

 

[Cochise]

They (the police) face enormous difficulties in dealing with rape and other sexual abuse cases. They have to deal with the victims sympathetically, of course, but they also have to juggle their responsibilities to the accused. I cannot imagine the true extent of the difficulties they face.

 

[OneWingedBird]

Contrary to popular belief, most people who work for the police are in it for the right reasons. Most do genuinely want to help make their communities a better place.

It often seems to me that the worst kind of people have the best intentions. I wouldn't attempt to connect desires to make the world a better place with any other form of behaviour.

 

[Simon]

I knew a guy who owned a small building business in the 80's/90's who said West had worked for him, cash-in-hand. Never knew whether to believe him or not, (because sensationalism) but at the time West was arrested and the bodies discovered he was seriously wondering if there were any bodies dumped under his building work. His firm covered Wiltshire/Gloucestershire/Oxfordshire area mainly, so maybe he did indeed employ West.

While travelling in New Zealand in 1995, I met a fellow traveller from the same town as Fred West who said there were a lot of people who had work done by him as he was a very good builder (the police excavation of his house just seemed to go on and on), and there was then a lot of very worried people in Gloucester.
This lad also mentioned something quite Fortean as he said Gloucester was a very quiet place, and then suddenly around the same time there was the West situation, people contracting meningitis and that strange flesh-eating disease which left people looking like pizza.

 

[escargot]

Fred West's involvement in cash-in-hand building jobs has become the stuff of urban legends. For example, there's the one about the couple who move into a house and strip the wallpaper in the extension, to find 'FRED WEST WOZ ERE' in red paint underneath.

I bought a house around the time the story was breaking. The previous owners had done poor-quality 'improvements' to it and the estate agent joked that they must've employed Fred West. :shock:

 

[Anome]

Completely OT, but reminds me of a joke Chris Addison does. When you redecorate after moving into a new place, buy some bright red paint, and write "I WILL KILL AGAIN!" under the wallpaper.

You never get to see the payout, but when you move on...

 

[escargot]

Oh, I ALWAYS paint on walls before repapering. Thought everyone did it!

My pictures are normally landscapes or lovely happy kitties though.

 

[PeteByrdie]

When you redecorate after moving into a new place, buy some bright red paint, and write "I WILL KILL AGAIN!" under the wallpaper.

This works especially well if, when you lay the patio, you make sure there's a slight bump in the middle.

Oh, I ALWAYS paint on walls before repapering. Thought everyone did it!

My pictures are normally landscapes or lovely happy kitties though.

Good gift to the new owners. I couldn't paper over kitties.

 

[Fanari_Lloyd]

While travelling in New Zealand in 1995, I met a fellow traveller from the same town as Fred West who said there were a lot of people who had work done by him as he was a very good builder (the police excavation of his house just seemed to go on and on), and there was then a lot of very worried people in Gloucester.
This lad also mentioned something quite Fortean as he said Gloucester was a very quiet place, and then suddenly around the same time there was the West situation, people contracting meningitis and that strange flesh-eating disease which left people looking like pizza.

Going to answer this on the serial killers thread, as it's not about Jimmy Saville.

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Thinking of merging this thread with the other JS-Celeb-paedo thread as they seem to wander into each other's territory a lot.

P_M

 

[rynner2]

Thinking of merging this thread with the other JS-Celeb-paedo thread as they seem to wander into each other's territory a lot.

P_M

The JS thread was running long before any of this paedo stuff came out. Why not keep it, but transfer the non-JS related stuff (eg, Rolf Harris, etc) to the newer thread?

 

[Analogue Boy]

What about keeping quiet while court cases are going on and refrain from doing a thread linking to guilt by association?

 

[markrkingston1]

What about keeping quiet while court cases are going on and refrain from doing a thread linking to guilt by association?

This.

 

[stu neville]

Thinking of merging this thread with the other JS-Celeb-paedo thread as they seem to wander into each other's territory a lot.

P_M

The JS thread was running long before any of this paedo stuff came out. Why not keep it, but transfer the non-JS related stuff (eg, Rolf Harris, etc) to the newer thread?

What about keeping quiet while court cases are going on and refrain from doing a thread linking to guilt by association?

All good points. will have a conflab with Pietro and post back.

 

[stu neville]

Thinking of merging this thread with the other JS-Celeb-paedo thread as they seem to wander into each other's territory a lot.

P_M

The JS thread was running long before any of this paedo stuff came out. Why not keep it, but transfer the non-JS related stuff (eg, Rolf Harris, etc) to the newer thread?

What about keeping quiet while court cases are going on and refrain from doing a thread linking to guilt by association?

All good points. will have a conflab with Pietro and post back.

Conflab had, here's what we're going to do.

Both the existing JS/Yewtree threads will close. We'll reopen sequel threads, one on Savile exclusively and one on the wider Yewtree investigation. Both will be in conspiracy. We're not going to go back and start splicing and chopping up the old threads - they're way too intertwined - but we will take some stuff from the last few weeks, from the Clifford conviction onwards, and place it in the new threads as a start-point.

Also, given the amount of poster-personal testimony and anecdote, we're starting a new thread in The Human Condition on childhood abuse and neglect. I know it's a departure from the previous editorial line regarding the personal nature of such discussions, but I have more autonomy now. It will be closely modded though, and people do need to be aware and cuatious of the degree of disclosure.

I'll post all relevant links when it's done. Both the existing threads will now close, and bits will disappear and re-emerge elsewhere in the meantime. Nothing will be deleted.

 

[stu neville]

Threads formed and open. The Savile - aftermath thread is here. The Operation Yewtree one here, and the Childhood Neglect and Abuse - Personal Testimony one here.