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Jo Cox Attack: False Flag?

I wasn't (or I didn't think I was). I was merely using the ideas addressed in your post as a jumping-off point. If I gave the impression of interrogating you or disagreeing with you then I didn't express myself clearly enough. That was not my intention at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Incidently, I'm not actually predicting that any newspaper would report a theoretical Farage assasination in those terms - just saying that translating the specifics of something as serious as the taking of a life from the particular to the general is illogical - and, when it's done to subliminally demonise political rivals in the public imagination, underhanded and dishonest. Which I know we are in agreement about.
 
Andy_X said:
I wasn't (or I didn't think I was). I was merely using the ideas addressed in your post as a jumping-off point. If I gave the impression of interrogating you or disagreeing with you then I didn't express myself clearly enough. That was not my intention at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Incidently, I'm not actually predicting that any newspaper would report a theoretical Farage assasination in those terms - just saying that translating the specifics of something as serious as the taking of a life from the particular to the general is illogical - and, when it's done to subliminally demonise political rivals in the public imagination, underhanded and dishonest. Which I know we are in agreement about.
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I'm too cranky tonight!
 
Looking at this awful event from another perspective - given the saturation and hyper tone of anti-foreigner, migration, EU, islam, east European benefits claimants et al media coverage over the past year or two, added to by extra referendum campaigns and also a drastic cut in mental health and social services plus the fact that most MPs have no security protection...

I'm actually surprised that this kind of attack hasn't and doesn't happen more often.

It might seem like 'convenient' timing but actually given the general political & social situation currently, it would almost be expected.

My general scepticism about conspiracy theories revolves around the fact that bad things happen all the time, mostly randomly. I think it gives people a sense of security to believe that some vast hive mind or cabal is behind the scenes, given the alternative is to accept that incidents, disasters, people happen which we have no control over.

Even when fairly small (in terms of numbers of people) conspiracies tend to surface and can tend to be an 'ad hoc' affair to cover someone's arse - eg Hillsborough, Jean Charles de Menezes. A few are still definitely to be exposed - perhaps the Nepal Royal Family massacre, the rate of missing women from one town in Mexico.

I wonder if the 'connectedness' we all experience every day via internet & phones influences us? We can all be connected - millions of random people - if we want to be, unlike 20 years ago. Our connectedness seems to want to translate to connecting events in a pattern where they may be none. We are also simultaneously detached - not remembering that the people caught up in these events are real, had lives, families and loved ones.

I wonder if, say, the awful school shooting of little children in Dunblane two decades ago would now have people speculating various conspiracies around it?
 
Andy_X said:
Incidently, I'm not actually predicting that any newspaper would report a theoretical Farage assasination in those terms - just saying that translating the specifics of something as serious as the taking of a life from the particular to the general is illogical - and, when it's done to subliminally demonise political rivals in the public imagination, underhanded and dishonest. Which I know we are in agreement about.
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Someone (allegedly) did try to kill Farage a few years back.
Remember that plane crash he had?
Afterwards, the pilot tried to kill him.
On 1 December 2010, Justin Adams, the pilot of the aircraft involved in the accident, was charged with threatening to kill Farage in a separate incident. He was also charged with threatening to kill an AAIB official involved in the investigation into the accident. In April 2011, the pilot was found guilty of making death threats. The judge said that the defendant was "clearly extremely disturbed" at the time the offences happened, adding "He is a man who does need help. If I can find a way of giving him help I will."
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AnonyJoolz said:
My general scepticism about conspiracy theories revolves around the fact that bad things happen all the time, mostly randomly. I think it gives people a sense of security to believe that some vast hive mind or cabal is behind the scenes, given the alternative is to accept that incidents, disasters, people happen which we have no control over.
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I was just thinking along similar lines, but relating to the anodyne statements made by Cameron et al: if politicians didn't make soothing noises about how we'll be protected by values and things when something frightening and unpredictable happens then the truth - that no government, however benevolent, no social mores, no level of surveillance nor any technology can ensure that everyone is safe from harm - would be brought into sharper focus. The same may hold for conspiracy theories as you say - a hidden elite of power-crazed psychopaths is perhaps less alarming than the idea of an unjust universe where human suffering is ultimately irrelevant.

But let's not get onto religion, for Gawd's sake.

Mythopoeika said:
Someone (allegedly) did try to kill Farage a few years back.
Remember that plane crash he had?
Afterwards, the pilot tried to kill him.
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Yup. That was a weird old business and I don't think anyone really got to the bottom of it. The story seem to peter out remarkably quickly.

[Ediited due to extraordinary spelling mistake.]
 
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AnonyJoolz said:
I wonder if, say, the awful school shooting of little children in Dunblane two decades ago would now have people speculating various conspiracies around it?
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It did then, so I'm sure it still would now.

Andy_X said:
In one way the mainstream media in general have been quite level-headed: I'd been expecting the no doubt hopelessly overstretched NHS mental health services in the area to come in for criticism for 'not doing enough'. Haven't seen any signs of this so far.
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I have two local friends and several Facebook friends involved in the mental health service. They are distressed enough already by this because they know that the service is seriously underfunded and that in particular there is a shortage of secure places for the disturbed. Until, of course, they actually commit some horror. This is another area which our politicians might consider is worth their attention now.

Andy_X said:
I was just thinking along similar lines, but relating to the anodyne statements made by Cameron et al: if politicians didn't make soothing noises about how we'll be protected by values and things when something frightening and unpredictable happens then the truth - that no government, however benevolent, no social morays, no level of surveillance nor any technology can ensure that everyone is safe from harm - would be brought into sharper focus. .
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Most people don't face up to things like that at all, even in countries far less safe than the UK. The modern world insists everything is preventable, and when something that clearly isn't occurs we forget about it very quickly. We actually live in very fortunate times - there are enormous cataclysms in our geological past, but lMother Nature has been in a relatively benevolent mood for thousands of years.
 
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egregor said:
The only bizarre thing, to me, about this awful murderous attack was the sense of 'synchronicity' that struck after hearing days previously about the assassination of American singer Christina Grimmie by another mentally ill man.
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Thank-you for noting that synchronicity. But there are others. Which either are odd, or are not at all odd, depending upon one's own interpretation of reality.

A young pro-EU female politician, murdered in the week before a major European membership referendum. Surely without precident?

No, consider, Anna Lindh, stabbed to death in Sweden, back in 2013.

(And I'm using the reductionist term 'murder' here, rather than assassination, in an attempt to defuse the interpretable-intent of the alleged perpetrator, in response to his apparent mental state)

Let's not draw any coincidental significance whatsoever from the reported fact that Jo Cox's birthday would've been the day before the UK membership referendum.

I'm not joining dots to make any pictures. I believe we as Forteans do have to consider all the facts, all the angles, all the possibilities.

Because I know you will, or you wouldn't be reading this.
 
So a lone nationalist lunatic kills someone, but nationalism isn't to blame, but a lone Muslim lunatic kills people and Islam is to blame? Even though the Muslim lunatic apparently claimed allegiance to two different factions that are at war with each other?

When will people realise that radical nationalism is a poisonous meme complex, just as radical Islam is poison?
 
They already do. However, wanting to leave the EU is not 'radical nationalism' - it's simply wanting to return to a democracy. Hence the disgust with some newspapers who have conflated the two.

It is the same as the Remain propaganda regarding racism. The EU actually discriminates against immigration form Asia and so on - its likely if we leave, although no doubt greater control will be sought over immigration, a higher proportion of immigrants are likely to be non-white.
 
eburacum said:
So a lone nationalist lunatic kills someone, but nationalism isn't to blame, but a lone Muslim lunatic kills people and Islam is to blame? Even though the Muslim lunatic apparently claimed allegiance to two different factions that are at war with each other?

When will people realise that radical nationalism is a poisonous meme complex, just as radical Islam is poison?
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The difference being that all the things we now call "Islamism" are present in Islam of the mainstream sort.

Nationalism - by which I mean belief in the nation state as the appropriate body to govern the people who identify with that nation - does not have at its core the slaughter of all people outside of that nation. Or, indeed, the oppression of women, medieval punishments, etc etc.

Your post conflates nationalism with "radical nationalism".

The "nothing to do with Islam" crowd love to jump on the thankfully rare violent crimes of the far right. Whilst doing so it might be worth pondering that so far this Ramadan Islamic terrorists have launched 108 attacks which have killed 852 people.

Ermintrude said:
Thank-you for noting that synchronicity. But there are others. Which either are odd, or are not at all odd, depending upon one's own interpretation of reality.

A young pro-EU female politician, murdered in the week before a major European membership referendum. Surely without precident?

No, consider, Anna Lindh, stabbed to death in Sweden, back in 2013.
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Hmm, yes I wondered if anyone was going to bring up the Anna Lindh case. Similar politician, similar reaction and it did seem to have an impact on the polls - although Sweden rejected joining the Euro in the end the margin narrowed substantially following the murder.
 
AnonyJoolz said:
I wonder if, say, the awful school shooting of little children in Dunblane two decades ago would now have people speculating various conspiracies around it?
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There are in fact a number of conspiracy theories around Dunblane already, most focusing on alleged links between the gunman and various senior Scottish politicians. The report by Lord Cullen was sealed for 100 years, fuelling suspicions (much of it has now been released).
 
Quake42 said:
The report by Lord Cullen was sealed for 100 years, fuelling suspicions (much of it has now been released).
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Just as well. As ever, if someone's hiding something, then they have something to hide (a good motto for life).
 
Whilst maintaining all appropriate respect for this reported tragedy, may I ask the FTMB what will become a non-rhetorical question?

Suppose that sometime in the future, somewhere, a contemporary politician named Julia Sizer were ever to be tragically murdered on a 15th of March? Would we, generally, perceive a coincidence? Perhaps then start thinking in an unfocused way about nominative determinism and the Cosmic Joker TM ??

Bear with me.....some of you may have already become aware of what I'm about to say
 
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Ermintrude said:
Whilst maintaining all appropriate respect for this reported tragedy, may I ask the FTMB what will become a non-rhetorical question?

Suppose that sometime in the future, somewhere, a contemporary politician named Julia Sizer were ever to be tragically murdered on a 15th of March? Would we, generally, perceive a coincidence? Perhaps then thinking in an unfocused way about nominative determinism and the Cosmic Joker TM

Bear with me.....some of you may have already become aware of what I'm about to say
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Ide be very surprised. ;)
 
o_O

I have no idea where you are going with this...
 
As they say, time and tide march on.
 
This I recount here purely for it's minor cryptic crossword coincidence value (in a similar vein to the Princess Diana / huntress name allusions / inferences that did the rounds, in the decades following her death). The main observation here is that in classical times, c. mid-June, a self-selecting Ox of the city was sacrificed for the commoners, and mourned.

I'm trying to find a better reference for this....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buphonia

Buphonia
In ancient Greece, the Buphonia (Greek: Βουφόνια "ox-slayings") denoted a sacrificial ceremony performed at Athens as part of the Dipolieia, a religious festival held on the 14th of the midsummer month Skirophorion— in June or July— at the Acropolis. In the Buphonia a working ox was sacrificed to Zeus Polieus, Zeus protector of the city, in accordance with a very ancient custom. A group of oxen was driven forward to the altar at the highest point of the Acropolis. On the altar a sacrifice of grain had been spread by members of the family of the Kentriadae, on whom this duty devolved hereditarily. When one of the oxen began to eat, thus selecting itself for sacrifice, one of the family of the Thaulonidae advanced with an axe, slew the ox, then immediately threw aside the axe and fled the scene of his guilt-laden crime.
 
Quake42 said:
There are in fact a number of conspiracy theories around Dunblane already, most focusing on alleged links between the gunman and various senior Scottish politicians. The report by Lord Cullen was sealed for 100 years, fuelling suspicions (much of it has now been released).
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So I understand, but what I was getting at was that the immediate international reaction following the awful event wasn't "It's a false flag conspiracy!!!" and I would maybe surmise that most of the theories relating to Dunblane have evolved in the past 10-15 years, following the worldwide takeup of faster internet services.

I wonder if the report has been sealed to generally cover someone/some organisation's collective arses until they are long gone? Most uncovered conspiracies seem (to me) to have that common theme, rather than sinister forethought and machinations before the event itself.
 
Again on the coincidence track, the Gospel text today (which, for non-churchgoers is part of a set cycle) was St Luke, the casting out of the demons into the swine. Of course , the name of the man from who the demons are cast is never given, he just calls himself Legion. So our rector paralleled that with Mrs Cox's murderer giving his name - apparently repeatedly, as 'Death to traitors'. I suppose if you have to think up a sermon every week you get practised at linking it to current events, but it did kind of fall into his lap on this occasion.
 
AnonyJoolz said:
So I understand, but what I was getting at was that the immediate international reaction following the awful event wasn't "It's a false flag conspiracy!!!" and I would maybe surmise that most of the theories relating to Dunblane have evolved in the past 10-15 years, following the worldwide takeup of faster internet services.

I wonder if the report has been sealed to generally cover someone/some organisation's collective arses until they are long gone? Most uncovered conspiracies seem (to me) to have that common theme, rather than sinister forethought and machinations before the event itself.
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Yeah - I'm inclined to agree with the general point, most "conspiracies" seem to involve arse-covering after the event, rather than the creation of the event itself.

What you do see rather a lot of though is a form of groupthink on the part of what may loosely be termed the Establishment - a groupthink that is broadly pro-EU, pro-globalisation, pro-multiculti but also pro-feminism and LGBT rights. It's easy for those outside the Establishment to look at that groupthink and infer an actual conspiracy. Hence much of the language in discussions on this topic.
 
Ermintrude said:
Suppose that sometime in the future, somewhere, a contemporary politician named Julia Sizer were ever to be tragically murdered on a 15th of March? Would we, generally, perceive a coincidence? Perhaps then start thinking in an unfocused way about nominative determinism and the Cosmic Joker TM ??
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Infamy! Infamy!
 
Cochise said:
Again on the coincidence track, the Gospel text today (which, for non-churchgoers is part of a set cycle) was St Luke, the casting out of the demons into the swine. Of course , the name of the man from who the demons are cast is never given, he just calls himself Legion. So our rector paralleled that with Mrs Cox's murderer giving his name - apparently repeatedly, as 'Death to traitors'. I suppose if you have to think up a sermon every week you get practised at linking it to current events, but it did kind of fall into his lap on this occasion.
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What did those swine do to deserve that?
 
ramonmercado said:
Just pig in the middle.

Persecuted by Jesus and Cameron.
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Even if Cameron did previously make a pig of himself (by being a premier in, whilst porking the pork....et cetera) what do we take now from his style and substance at the memorial service?

And....(I'm sorry, this must be said).....is Jo Cox not the most-famous omnipresent flawless politician that I'd never heard of?

Please tell me you genuinely know all about her, and have followed her career forever (I've lost the reference I had to this, but I believe she only became an MP last year....and (I'm sure I read) like a number of Labour politicians, had 'worked for Barack Obama and the US Democratic Party'. Seriously? Someone, please substantiate this.
 
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