Jordan Peterson

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We can't really know what's going on with him, can we?
In such situations, people say 'physician, heal thyself' - but sometimes events spiral out of control.
People who are already his opponents will be quick to jump in to make these judgements against him.
 

Min Bannister

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Ah, well I'm glad to hear that, I hadn't heard it was a terminal until Min's post and was confused by the "yay".
Aye, I may not have read his books but at least I read the article. :p
(I should have made that more clear though)
 

AlchoPwn

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We can't really know what's going on with him, can we?
In such situations, people say 'physician, heal thyself' - but sometimes events spiral out of control.
People who are already his opponents will be quick to jump in to make these judgements against him.
So, it's okay for JP to behave like an uncompassionate d*ck to people, but when something bad happens to him we have to feel bad for him? JP taught a philosophy that devalued compassion in favor of individual self reliance. Where is that self reliance now? I don't hear JP rushing to say that his previous pronouncements were wrong in the face of fresh personal evidence, so clearly he must still believe what he said. Now if he backed down and publically changed his mind I would be very inclined to offer a more compassionate outlook, but as he has not, probably because he has been addicted to drugs, which is the pinnacle of personal responsibility and self reliance.
 

AlchoPwn

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It is possible to feel sorry for someone and still think they're an arsehole.
I have to agree that what you say is unequivocally true, but I don't think such an emotional response is very productive. I confess I try to avoid feeling overmuch sympathy for arseholes until they repent, and the more public the arseholery, the more public the repentance needs to be. Perhaps this is a hang-over of my Christian upbringing?
 

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I have to agree that what you say is unequivocally true, but I don't think such an emotional response is very productive. I confess I try to avoid feeling overmuch sympathy for arseholes until they repent, and the more public the arseholery, the more public the repentance needs to be. Perhaps this is a hang-over of my Christian upbringing?
In what arseholey way does Jordan Peterson behave?
 

eburacum

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I cannot reply to this subject in any way that gives the subject justice because of the restrictions on political discussion on this forum; sufficient to say that Peterson and his hard-core followers are all full-weight arseholes.
 

Yithian

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I cannot reply to this subject in any way that gives the subject justice because of the restrictions on political discussion on this forum; sufficient to say that Peterson and his hard-core followers are all full-weight arseholes.
We've managed to conduct a conversation so far.

I suggest that if you avoid party politics and limit youself to a critique of his statements and positions, you'll remain within the guidelines.
 

maximus otter

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There is rather a lot of ground to cover...
Would your objections to him centre mainly on the idea that he is of a political mindset which rhymes with "tight string"?

If so, I promise I shan't bother you any further.

maximus otter
 

AlchoPwn

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Would your objections to him centre mainly on the idea that he is of a political mindset which rhymes with "tight string"? If so, I promise I shan't bother you any further. maximus otter
While I lean left, I am a centrist and I am vocal about loathing opinions on both extremes. I would consider JP to be a mild libertarian (which is a bit right wing). I certainly agree with his pro-Freedom of speech position unequivocally, and I am also not fond of political correctness as I, along with JP, think it is a species of thought policing. I do begin to draw the line when a psychologist like JP begins to promulgate Climate Denial without actually addressing any of the science. I find that the level of scientific illiteracy on the topic on both left and right should be getting more people to STFU and do their homework, and Peterson expressing an uninformed opinion in as if it should matter adds nothing to the debate. Had he waded in with a legitimate scientific criticism of Climate Change, or criticised the left for politicising what should be a bipartisan issue, I would be far more sympathetic towards him. More broadly I can understand the appeal of the sort of rugged individualism that JP promotes, but where I begin to doubt him is when he begins to promote a life philosophy that begins to sound like it has been plagiarised from a pick-up artist website. He literally does a whole spiel where he discusses female psychology and their pursuit of the alpha male, in favor of the beta "nice guys". Word for word it could have come from a pick up forum, and this from a public intellectual? What next?

I guess my problem with Peterson, condensed, is that he is glib, but not substantial. What he says sounds snappy and informed, but when you listen more closely and think about what is being said more critically, you realise that you are being fast-talked into buying a lemon. On close inspection, the sad truth is that JP has nothing new to say. Everything he says has been said before and often better, but he dresses it up like it is his own idea; relevant and contemporary, but it never is. Now there might be some spineless millennials out there who could benefit from a bit of tough love, but the same answer will not work for everyone, and should not be "sold as a cure-all". I certainly don't think that arguing against compassion is a form of decency, and often JP does just that. JP behaves like a culty life coach, while recent events suggest that he himself may be in need of one. Ergo he doesn't practice what he preaches.
 

Krepostnoi

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Weak reply.
Sorry, Yith, the reply you refer to was no less detailed than much of the opprobrium being hurled at Greta Thunberg in her eponymous thread. :sstorm: The difference in approach is instructive. Insinuation withdrawn and apology tendered - see #358, below.
 
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maximus otter

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While I lean left, I am a centrist and I am vocal about loathing opinions on both extremes. I would consider JP to be a mild libertarian (which is a bit right wing). I certainly agree with his pro-Freedom of speech position unequivocally, and I am also not fond of political correctness as I, along with JP, think it is a species of thought policing. I do begin to draw the line when a psychologist like JP begins to promulgate Climate Denial without actually addressing any of the science. I find that the level of scientific illiteracy on the topic on both left and right should be getting more people to STFU and do their homework, and Peterson expressing an uninformed opinion in as if it should matter adds nothing to the debate. Had he waded in with a legitimate scientific criticism of Climate Change, or criticised the left for politicising what should be a bipartisan issue, I would be far more sympathetic towards him. More broadly I can understand the appeal of the sort of rugged individualism that JP promotes, but where I begin to doubt him is when he begins to promote a life philosophy that begins to sound like it has been plagiarised from a pick-up artist website. He literally does a whole spiel where he discusses female psychology and their pursuit of the alpha male, in favor of the beta "nice guys". Word for word it could have come from a pick up forum, and this from a public intellectual? What next?

I guess my problem with Peterson, condensed, is that he is glib, but not substantial. What he says sounds snappy and informed, but when you listen more closely and think about what is being said more critically, you realise that you are being fast-talked into buying a lemon. On close inspection, the sad truth is that JP has nothing new to say. Everything he says has been said before and often better, but he dresses it up like it is his own idea; relevant and contemporary, but it never is. Now there might be some spineless millennials out there who could benefit from a bit of tough love, but the same answer will not work for everyone, and should not be "sold as a cure-all". I certainly don't think that arguing against compassion is a form of decency, and often JP does just that. JP behaves like a culty life coach, while recent events suggest that he himself may be in need of one. Ergo he doesn't practice what he preaches.
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to amplify your position. It makes me more determined to add his book to my “to read” list.

maximus otter
 

Frideswide

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General comment - take the snidery off this thread people and don't look for another home for it here!

Frideswide
 

Yithian

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The difference in approach is instructive.
It shouldn't be.

There's no approach worthy of the name here. I simply opened the thread at the latest post on my walk home and saw a weak answer. I have only been looking at the Greta Thunberg thread when expressly asked to do so by posters (reports) or fellow mods as it's lapsed into rubbish.

We do have an intention to say something there, but all of us have been too busy to write it yesterday (my daughter's birthday) or today (a heavy work schedule). If a point needs rebutting there, jump in a rebut it. I will post there in a few hours when I've done the bedtime routine and helped my wife pack for a journey.

I literally can't police everything all the time and still have a life.
 

Ogdred Weary

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It shouldn't be.

There's no approach worthy of the name here. I simply opened the thread at the latest post on my walk home and saw a weak answer. I have only been looking at the Greta Thunberg thread when expressly asked to do so by posters (reports) or fellow mods as it's lapsed into rubbish.

We do have an intention to say something there, but all of us have been too busy to write it yesterday (my daughter's birthday) or today (a heavy work schedule). If a point needs rebutting there, jump in a rebut it. I will post there in a few hours when I've done the bedtime routine and helped my wife pack for a journey.

I literally can't police everything all the time and still have a life.
I hope your family had a nice day yesterday and today and a big thank you for your efforts here as well as those of the other mods, an unenviable task. I fear that threads like this and the Greta one my have to be closed in the near future, regrettable but this is ultimately a "weird shit/human eccentricity" board, not a political one.
 

Krepostnoi

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I literally can't police everything all the time and still have a life.
Understood. I'm sorry to have lost track of what should have been the obvious point that you and the other mods are volunteers, and do this in your spare time. My apologies. I withdraw the insinuation.
 

ramonmercado

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Would your objections to him centre mainly on the idea that he is of a political mindset which rhymes with "tight string"?

If so, I promise I shan't bother you any further.

maximus otter
I actually like the way JP takes on the "Woke" and Intersectionals, calling out their postmodernist illogic and hypocrisy.

I don't like his (at best) paternalistic (possibly patriarchal) attitude to women.

I differ with him on his political leanings.
 

Megadeth1977

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I refuse to listen to some one who panders to people with unpleasant views no matter how much jp denies it. I'm not and will never be intolerant of in intolerance even though some turnip on Reddit called me an enlightened centrist:mad:
 

Zeke Newbold

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While I lean left, I am a centrist and I am vocal about loathing opinions on both extremes. I would consider JP to be a mild libertarian (which is a bit right wing). I certainly agree with his pro-Freedom of speech position unequivocally, and I am also not fond of political correctness as I, along with JP, think it is a species of thought policing. I do begin to draw the line when a psychologist like JP begins to promulgate Climate Denial without actually addressing any of the science. I find that the level of scientific illiteracy on the topic on both left and right should be getting more people to STFU and do their homework, and Peterson expressing an uninformed opinion in as if it should matter adds nothing to the debate. Had he waded in with a legitimate scientific criticism of Climate Change, or criticised the left for politicising what should be a bipartisan issue, I would be far more sympathetic towards him. More broadly I can understand the appeal of the sort of rugged individualism that JP promotes, but where I begin to doubt him is when he begins to promote a life philosophy that begins to sound like it has been plagiarised from a pick-up artist website. He literally does a whole spiel where he discusses female psychology and their pursuit of the alpha male, in favor of the beta "nice guys". Word for word it could have come from a pick up forum, and this from a public intellectual? What next?

I guess my problem with Peterson, condensed, is that he is glib, but not substantial. What he says sounds snappy and informed, but when you listen more closely and think about what is being said more critically, you realise that you are being fast-talked into buying a lemon. On close inspection, the sad truth is that JP has nothing new to say. Everything he says has been said before and often better, but he dresses it up like it is his own idea; relevant and contemporary, but it never is. Now there might be some spineless millennials out there who could benefit from a bit of tough love, but the same answer will not work for everyone, and should not be "sold as a cure-all". I certainly don't think that arguing against compassion is a form of decency, and often JP does just that. JP behaves like a culty life coach, while recent events suggest that he himself may be in need of one. Ergo he doesn't practice what he preaches.

Well put Alcho!
I had thought that some of your earlier posts on this seemed a little OTT - but here you account for your position well - and speak for me too in the process.
 

Yithian

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While I lean left, I am a centrist and I am vocal about loathing opinions on both extremes. I would consider JP to be a mild libertarian (which is a bit right wing). I certainly agree with his pro-Freedom of speech position unequivocally, and I am also not fond of political correctness as I, along with JP, think it is a species of thought policing. I do begin to draw the line when a psychologist like JP begins to promulgate Climate Denial without actually addressing any of the science. I find that the level of scientific illiteracy on the topic on both left and right should be getting more people to STFU and do their homework, and Peterson expressing an uninformed opinion in as if it should matter adds nothing to the debate. Had he waded in with a legitimate scientific criticism of Climate Change, or criticised the left for politicising what should be a bipartisan issue, I would be far more sympathetic towards him. More broadly I can understand the appeal of the sort of rugged individualism that JP promotes, but where I begin to doubt him is when he begins to promote a life philosophy that begins to sound like it has been plagiarised from a pick-up artist website. He literally does a whole spiel where he discusses female psychology and their pursuit of the alpha male, in favor of the beta "nice guys". Word for word it could have come from a pick up forum, and this from a public intellectual? What next?

I guess my problem with Peterson, condensed, is that he is glib, but not substantial. What he says sounds snappy and informed, but when you listen more closely and think about what is being said more critically, you realise that you are being fast-talked into buying a lemon. On close inspection, the sad truth is that JP has nothing new to say. Everything he says has been said before and often better, but he dresses it up like it is his own idea; relevant and contemporary, but it never is. Now there might be some spineless millennials out there who could benefit from a bit of tough love, but the same answer will not work for everyone, and should not be "sold as a cure-all". I certainly don't think that arguing against compassion is a form of decency, and often JP does just that. JP behaves like a culty life coach, while recent events suggest that he himself may be in need of one. Ergo he doesn't practice what he preaches.
I don't see anything very egregious about the 'self help' end of his work, but it's his Jungian analyses of archetypal images in cultural 'art' that I've found much more interesting: the idea that wisdom about our fundamental psychological nature has been encoded in images, motifs and sets of structural relations that carry a deep resonance for Man and may not merely 'hold truths', but actually be of genuine therapeutic value for a modern soul adrift without the meta-narratives of religion or totalising ideology.

This in itself is not an original concept--not by some long way--but his explanations in the lectures I have seen have been crisp, and the examples of his own 'decodings' were quite insightful.
 

Zeke Newbold

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I don't see anything very egregious about the 'self help' end of his work, but it's his Jungian analyses of archetypal images in cultural 'art' that I've found much more interesting: the idea that wisdom about our fundamental psychological nature has been encoded in images, motifs and sets of structural relations that carry a deep resonance for Man and may not merely 'hold truths', but actually be of genuine therapeutic value for a modern soul adrift without the meta-narratives of religion or totalising ideology.

This in itself is not an original concept--not by some long way--but his explanations in the lectures I have seen have been crisp, and the examples of his own 'decodings' were quite insightful.
You;re right there- it's not an original concept - not by a long, long, long way!

If you want to see how the Jungian archetypal mythopoetic approach can be applied to the problems of modern man - and I do mean man as in `male` - then you need to read Robert Bly. Start with Iron John (1990).

In some ways Robert Bly was the Jordan Peterson of the Nineties: but he did it with so much more breadth of mind, humour, finesse and compassion than Peterrson could ever do.
 

Yithian

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You;re right there- it's not an original concept - not by a long, long, long way!

If you want to see how the Jungian archetypal mythopoetic approach can be applied to the problems of modern man - and I do mean man as in `male` - then you need to read Robert Bly. Start with Iron John (1990).

In some ways Robert Bly was the Jordan Peterson of the Nineties: but he did it with so much more breadth of mind, humour, finesse and compassion than Peterrson could ever do.
Interesting. Thank you.
 

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@Zeke Newbold Agreed - Robert Bly is excellent on these things. Clinically not a million miles away (pers. comm. a Jungian therapist while playing Call of Cthulu) from canon and because of the date starting to create a canon of his own :)
 

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I read a chapter of his "12 Rules" book and after a general introduction to the subject and one or two illustrative anecdotes, amounting to perhaps a page and half, he then launched into a relatively esoteric diatribe about mythology, including but not exclusively Christian. Perhaps I am moar stoopit than I realise but this mostly went over my head and was the prose was overwritten and turgid, leavened by the occasional dad joke. I'll admit to not trying to hard with it after a couple more pages but bloody hell, it was awful and was reminiscent to clips I've seen of him lecturing on similar subjects, I don't know how "the average reader" is likely to get out of it.
 
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