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Judging A Ghost On Its Apparel

catseye

catseye

Old lady trouser-smell with yesterday's knickers
Joined
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In consequence of the wondering on another thread about the ubiquity of 'nun ghosts', I started wondering. Are we judging ghosts simply by what they appear to be wearing? To anyone unfamiliar with costume history, isn't any ghostly woman wearing a head covering going to look like their only reference point - a nun? Until reasonably recently, women wore long dresses and had their heads covered... Given the usually brief sightings that one is afforded of an apparition, it would require the skills of a clothing historian to be able to differentiate between 'a nun' and a woman wearing a wimple from any other century.

So perhaps this explains the preponderance of nun-ghosts. But are there any reported ghosts wearing very distinctive costume - say crinolines? Lots of male ghosts in breeches, but that covers a wide historical area too. I'm not aware of many ghostly women who wear anything other than 'a long dress' - are there ghostly women in trousers?
 
catseye said:
In consequence of the wondering on another thread about the ubiquity of 'nun ghosts', I started wondering. Are we judging ghosts simply by what they appear to be wearing? To anyone unfamiliar with costume history, isn't any ghostly woman wearing a head covering going to look like their only reference point - a nun? Until reasonably recently, women wore long dresses and had their heads covered... Given the usually brief sightings that one is afforded of an apparition, it would require the skills of a clothing historian to be able to differentiate between 'a nun' and a woman wearing a wimple from any other century.

So perhaps this explains the preponderance of nun-ghosts. But are there any reported ghosts wearing very distinctive costume - say crinolines? Lots of male ghosts in breeches, but that covers a wide historical area too. I'm not aware of many ghostly women who wear anything other than 'a long dress' - are there ghostly women in trousers?
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I agree absolutely... however, I did just read about an apparition in a pub in Shropshire that was wearing modern clothes, specifically a short dress, and was thought at first to just be a customer. I have also read various accounts of phantom Victorian ladies wearing bustles. I can't recall any specific instance of a ghost wearing a crinoline, however a quick Google just turned up this (4th item down):

Paranormal Database - Victorian in Crinoline

Your post also makes me wonder about ghost monks... any apparition in a cowl being described as a monk. I assume it was fairly common peasant-wear.
 
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I always supposed the high number of ghostly nuns and monks was a similar phenomenon to the amount of local folklore connected to monks, eg legends of tunnels which are often said to have been made by unspecified "monks" (eg those catalogued on the brilliant Hidden East Anglia site).

Religious orders were a large and ubiquitous part of everyday life in England up until the Reformation, after which they disappeared pretty suddenly. This 'memory' of their presence presumably found its outlet in folklore.
 
My 'ghost' was wearing clothing (guessing at Middle Ages to early Medieval peasant-look) that simply wasn't of quality sufficient to have been mass produced or shop-bought. She also had no make-up on at all.
 
Forum member Ruth Roper-Wylde spoke about this when she was on the Mysteries and Monsters podcast. She made the pertinent comment that all manner of people wore hooded cloaks in the past as this was the most effective way to keep warm and dry with the materials available. However, nowadays we associate hooded cloaks with monks only.
 
Pre 19th century depictions of ghosts, in prints or caricatures, often show them wrapped in the "woollen" or whatever they were buried in. Again this might have created a later trope of ghosts wearing long, floaty things (or the 'bloke with a sheet over his head' image, in its most basic form).

The other thing that might have fed into the whole ghostly monk / nun idea is late 18th century 'Gothic' writing, where Catholicism, and hence religious orders, was a shorthand for superstition, medievalism, belief in the supernatural, the 'sublime' vs the rational etc. Monks 'n' ghosts just go together in English culture - not sure if the same holds true in, say, Spain or other southern European countries where religious orders were less exotic and less immediately symbolic of the past.
 
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BS3 said:
Pre 19th century depictions of ghosts, in prints or caricatures, often show them wrapped in the "woollen" or whatever they were buried in. Again this might have created a later trope of ghosts wearing long, floaty things (or the 'bloke with a sheet over his head' image, in it's most basic form).

The other thing that might have fed into the whole ghostly monk / nun idea is late 18th century 'Gothic' writing, where Catholicism, and hence religious orders, was a shorthand for superstition, medievalism, belief in the supernatural, the 'sublime' vs the rational etc. Monks 'n' ghosts just go together in English culture - not sure if the same holds true in, say, Spain or other southern European countries where religious orders were less exotic and less immediately symbolic of the past.
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The book on haunted Madrid that I just finished reading has plentiful mention of ghostly nuns. Certainly in the past, Spanish culture was infused with Catholicism, there are convents and monasteries everywhere, and there used to be even more. Just watch a few Spanish supernatural dramas and you will see that it is almost obligatory to have a priest, nun or monk in there.

In Guatemala, one of the more folkloric ghost stories is a procession of phatom monks said to be seen at night, particularly in old centres of Spanish colonial power. This seems to have been a direct import from Spain.
 
BS3 said:
I always supposed the high number of ghostly nuns and monks was a similar phenomenon to the amount of local folklore connected to monks, eg legends of tunnels which are often said to have been made by unspecified "monks" (eg those catalogued on the brilliant Hidden East Anglia site).
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Gee thanks for that, now I've got something else to worry about! Both the town I'm now living in and one of the villages I grew up in are mentioned. The thing is both my neighbour and I are concerned about cracks that are appearing in the corners of our respective houses but neither of us can get our landlords to take it seriously. 'It's an old house ... cracks happen blah blah' We are pretty sure it's actually the drains but now going by the story on that site perhaps we are sinking into a tunnel as it is more or less en route!!

No I don't really think that although one of the objections to that particular tunnel theory is that it would have had to go under the river but the river in question is little more that a wide ditch at that point so although I don't think that objection holds good I still don't think it's very likely, but there again? mmm

There were tunnel legends associated with monks very near the site of the following legend it isn't actually about the monks or a tunnel in this case.

I can confirm that you can't avoid curses that easily! We paid heed to the legend but it must apply not just to the journey to the church but the journey back as well, as the wedding breakfast was held in the village hall just opposite the bridge.




'Beneath the Bridge Edmund is said to have hidden from the Danes, but was given away by a newly-wed couple who saw the moon glancing from his golden spurs in the waters of the brook. As he was dragged to his death by the Danish soldiers, he cried a curse on all bridal couples who should ever cross the bridge. It's said that until well into the 19th century, many local wedding parties would go the long way round rather than chance the curse. The shine of his spurs can still be seen from the bridge on moonlit nights.'

My dads friend was a reporter for the local rag and was well pleased that he had a new angle to add to the usual wedding reports and unbeknownst to us managed to get it printed together with the photo, not only in the local rag but the ones that covered the whole of East Anglia! All well and good but we hadn't mentioned to the hotel that our stay was actually our honeymoon and were dismayed that they had spotted it and laid the paper, open at the report, on our table the following morning!!!

Many years later my aunt spotted in the EDP the story reprinted in one of those filler 'on this day' columns. Well I suppose it's the nearest I've got to being famous which I suppose is why I'm milking it on this forum ha! ha! We were divorced by then but the date of the reprint?

9/11/2001

Ringing a bell anyone? No wonder the marriage didn't last. Wrong venue wrong date! Yes yes I know it's really just a meaningless coincidence.

So much for local legends, another village also lays claim to a similar tale so it's a bit flakey and in any case us kids looked in vain for the glinting of the spurs. However the bridge did make a good place to play 'ghosts'!

catseye said:
Given the usually brief sightings that one is afforded of an apparition, it would require the skills of a clothing historian to be able to differentiate 'a nun' and a woman wearing a wimple from any other century.
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Agreed and sorry for the above diversion to your thread catseye. I'd just like to add that given how bad we are at accurately describing real life people we've had longer than a fleeting glance of it's no wonder that many ghost sightings can be a bit simplistic/generic. I'll let you all know if any ghostly nuns leave the tunnel to come floating out of my floor!

Sollywos x
 
SimonBurchell said:
Have you posted this on here somewhere? I would love to read about it.
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The only truly Fortean event that happened to me. I haven't posted it here and I'm not sure which thread would be best or if now would be the time. (wave red flag at Scargie)
 
I have never really thought about it, why would a ghost wear clothes?

I guess people want to keep it from being X rated which is silly.
 
Bad Bungle said:
Don't think she was a ghost (but I'm not an expert)
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Well I was a bit suspicious of the 'she was wearing no make up' comment. A bit of a red flag eh
 
BS3 said:
I always supposed the high number of ghostly nuns and monks was a similar phenomenon to the amount of local folklore connected to monks, eg legends of tunnels which are often said to have been made by unspecified "monks" (eg those catalogued on the brilliant Hidden East Anglia site).

Religious orders were a large and ubiquitous part of everyday life in England up until the Reformation, after which they disappeared pretty suddenly. This 'memory' of their presence presumably found its outlet in folklore.
Click to expand...

According to Keith Wrightson, the clergy made up about 4% of the population of late mediaeval England; roughly 60,000:


maximus otter
 
The elderly lady I saw in my bedroom was dressed in the clothes associated with her age which seemed to be very similar through anywhere from the 1920's to the 1980's, long tweedish long skirt and cardigan. Stupidly I've lost the deeds to the house (although they can't have gone far) from 1910ish to my ownership so can't establish if she was a former owner.
 
PeteS said:
The elderly lady I saw in my bedroom was dressed in the clothes associated with her age which seemed to be very similar through anywhere from the 1920's to the 1980's, long tweedish long skirt and cardigan. Stupidly I've lost the deeds to the house (although they can't have gone far) from 1910ish to my ownership so can't establish if she was a former owner.
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The ghost lady I saw in a Woking bookshop was wearing a modern-looking long winter overcoat and scarf. (Alas, the bookshop is long gone.)
 
catseye said:
I'm not aware of many ghostly women who wear anything other than 'a long dress' - are there ghostly women in trousers?
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How about Amelia Earhart's ghost, spotted several times over the years in hangar no. 1, where she prepared for her final flight?
At 2:07, the ghost is described as a "slender woman in pants (trousers)"

 
I am delighted that there are so many reports of ghosts wearing clothing that is a little more descriptive of their period of history! Do we still think that the preponderance of 'nuns' (and possibly 'monks') is down to unfamiliarity with the costume of different ages? Is it just that anyone wearing a long costume (bearing in mind that one rarely gets a good, long, properly diagnostic look at a ghost) is automatically designated a nun? I'm thinking of cases such as that at Borley, where the sisters saw 'a nun' who vanished?
 
catseye said:
I am delighted that there are so many reports of ghosts wearing clothing that is a little more descriptive of their period of history! Do we still think that the preponderance of 'nuns' (and possibly 'monks') is down to unfamiliarity with the costume of different ages? Is it just that anyone wearing a long costume (bearing in mind that one rarely gets a good, long, properly diagnostic look at a ghost) is automatically designated a nun? I'm thinking of cases such as that at Borley, where the sisters saw 'a nun' who vanished?
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I still think it's got more to do with the fact that, culturally speaking, we associate monks and nuns with ghosts, superstition, the 'past' generally etc.
 
catseye said:
I am delighted that there are so many reports of ghosts wearing clothing that is a little more descriptive of their period of history! Do we still think that the preponderance of 'nuns' (and possibly 'monks') is down to unfamiliarity with the costume of different ages? Is it just that anyone wearing a long costume (bearing in mind that one rarely gets a good, long, properly diagnostic look at a ghost) is automatically designated a nun? I'm thinking of cases such as that at Borley, where the sisters saw 'a nun' who vanished?
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I agree. Perhaps also due to the fact that way back when, people were more familiar with seeing nuns and monks, etc. Even in the 60's I remember seeing nuns out and about, although not monks. I've not seen either in probably over 50 years, and I doubt whether yoofs of today would even know what a nun or monk is, or what they looked like of old.
 
PeteS said:
I agree. Perhaps also due to the fact that way back when, people were more familiar with seeing nuns and monks, etc. Even in the 60's I remember seeing nuns out and about, although not monks. I've not seen either in probably over 50 years, and I doubt whether yoofs of today would even know what a nun or monk is, or what they looked like of old.
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In this case, it will be interesting to say whether ghost appearances change at all. If someone is seeing something in a place where 'the received wisdom' is that it is haunted by a nun or a monk, they I'd guess it's reasonable that they would say they had seen the 'ghost nun (or monk)' even without really knowing what one looked like. But will future sightings of nuns and monks (ghost ones, I mean) now become 'wizard' or 'druid' or whatever the current 'yoof' is associating with a long frock?
 
The title of this thread makes me chuckle, as my son likes to look me up and down, purse his lips and say "Those shoes with that jumper?" I'm imagining pulling the same stunt on a headless horseman or screaming banshee...
 
Sollywos said:
Beneath the Bridge Edmund is said to have hidden from the Danes, but was given away by a newly-wed couple who saw the moon glancing from his golden spurs in the waters of the brook. As he was dragged to his death by the Danish soldiers, he cried a curse on all bridal couples who should ever cross the bridge. It's said that until well into the 19th century, many local wedding parties would go the long way round rather than chance the curse. The shine of his spurs can still be seen from the bridge on moonlit nights.
Click to expand...
Saint (King) Edmund was murdered in 869; I'm surprised that he was wearing spurs, let alone golden ones, but apparently spurs were a thing in those days. They would have been simple spikes strapped to the boot, as rotating (rowel) spurs hadn't been invented yet, but spurs have been a thing since Celtic times, apparently.
 
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