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Knights Templar Thread

My Brewers is more up to date. 1994 or there-abouts (its in Glasgow so I cant be totally sure).

There is bound to be plenty on google, rynner!:)

[edit....there is plenty on google!]
 
There are many things in my town that reflect its Templar past. The original royal burgh was entirely walled, like many others of the time, with various tolls leading outside the boundry. Some of these walls are still in position and can be followed using one of the town trails.

Not far from one of these walls is the sea-gate castle which was built to allow access to the sea at the front doorstep. The sea is now 1 mile away! This "palace" was built by the Eglintons who were comprised of Templar descendants and original freemasons.
It is believed that Mary Stewart (Queen of Scots) stopped off here on her way to Eglinton Castle.

Irvine's St Andrews Lodge is one of the oldest on the Grand Role and welcomed Robert Burns to its halls. It used to be on the site of a previous Templar Tenement but was moved to its present location more than a hundred years ago. I have said before that my town had at least 16 Templar Domains and a further 5 or so outside the medieval burgh but ones which were incorporated quickly with the new boundries.

The Graveyard at the old centre of town was surrounded by these Tenements and many of the oldest graves are encrusted with many relevant heraldries and inscriptions. The town of Irvine was also deeply effected by later freemasonry and this too can be seen in at least 100 monumental inscriptions dating from the 16th to 19th centuries.

The Templars also owned many of the surrounding estates and their corresponding burial grounds or family lairs all have distictive indicators or their own past history as well as their connections with my home towns of Kilwinning and Irvine.

Irvines Lord provost became Grand Master of The Scottish Rite in 1750. Another Templar descendant and occupant of Templar Land a mile away was enobled by Frederick the Great who then went on to establish Germanys Berlin Lodge because of his expreience in Scottish freemsonry.

Napoleon III visited my families inn whose foundations are medieval and whose drinks were served to Robert Burns and his brethren. I have a Napoleon III coin and I have no idea how long the family has had it. They are common enough on ebay but we have had it longer than anyone can remember. It may just be fancy but it would be nice if the coin has never left Irvine. It may have arrived in the pocket of one of Napoleons servents or in his own pocket. Perhaps we kept it when he purchased one ale from the landlord with his coin.

Blah, blah.....anything to keep this one going, eh?:)
 
I have just returned from a trip to Italy where I visited Assisi, Gubbio and other parts of Umbria. I noticed, a multitude of Agnus Dei cross/flags in this region. These are associated with John the Baptist and the phrase "behold the lamb of god". I saw only one cross/flag that was joined with an actual lamb and that was in a church in Gubbio which seemed to house some paintings that were once held in the round church near my residence.

When I visited the Franciscan Basilica of Assisi that houses the tomb of Francis of Assisi, I noticed a tomb or memorial that was erected (well, it was a wall memorial) for Hospitaller Knights. It featured a painting of one Knight with the Maltese cross on his chest. Hospitallers did feature very highly in Assisi but I can find no reference to this tomb or memorial. As I translated the Latin for my father, the wee priest who had been shooshing everyone who spoke came up behind us. Instead of shooshing me, he continued to let me speak and indeed took some interest in my words. My italian is not good enough to have dared to speak to him......I just felt appreciative that he let me continue.

Does anyone have some useful or relevant information on the Hospitallers in Assisi?

P.S I found a beautiful painting that was originaly stored in the Round Church near my home in Umbria. It seems to depict the Grail in the hand of Magdalene. (perhaps?) At the base is a perfect painted image of an un-folded sheet of paper whose top left (our left) corner is folded down. There is a cloaked figure appearing from the sky with a crown that he is about tp place on her head. In the background is christ and a woman cleaning his feet. Here it is.........
 
Hi-tech hope as chapel is searched in relic mystery

TWENTY-FIRST century technology is to be used to solve an age-old mystery at a famous Midlothian chapel.

The carved stones of the 15th century Rosslyn Chapel are said to contain dozens of historical relics including early gospels, the Ark of the Covenant, the holy grail and the mummified head of Christ.

Now, more than 550 years after work began on the site, the latest technology will be used to try and find the supposed relics.

A non-invasive survey will be carried out at the chapel, home to the Knights Templar, successors to the warrior monks, who fled the Pope to Scotland in the 14th century.

The Knights Templar will use ultra-sound and thermal imaging equipment in a bid to find the reputed relics in the vaults.

John Ritchie, grand herald and spokesman for the Knights Templar, said: "The machine we are using is the most sophisticated anywhere and is capable of taking readings from the ground up to a mile deep without disturbing any of the land.

"We know many of the knights are buried in the grounds and there are many references to buried vaults, which we hope this project will finally uncover."

Rosslyn Chapel was founded by Sir William St Clair, third and last Prince of Orkney, in 1446.

One of the ornate columns, the Apprentice Pillar, is said to contain a lead casket which holds the legendary Holy Grail, a cup used by Christ at the Last Supper, which was also used to collect his blood.
Click to expand...
(From Edinburgh News )
 
OK,
lets have a go at this under the headings of possibility, probabilities and all out speculation.

Me First!

Possibilities:

Some type of written account of the de Saint Clair family and their involvement with the order.

An account of the end of the Templars with possible inferences as to where they went.

Probabilities:

If vaults are found, they are likely to contain nothing but the remains of Sinclair ancestors.

Speculation:
A possible Nag Hammadi like cache of early gospels or apocryphal texts about Jesus himself, with possible evidence for the supposed Johannite heresy among the knights.

I think the Ark/grail/head of jesus is all a bit far fetched, but I would be the first to say "Slap my leg and call me Henry!", should anything like this, or looking like this, turn up.

LD
 
As a non-christian, I do not believe that they will find the cup of christ or the Ark of the Covenant. Nor do I believe that they will find the head of Jonny Baptist or Jesus Christ.

However, Rosslyn chapel was built after the destruction of the Templars and before the Reformation, and as such could contain relics, records and moneys that were hidden from view as soon as the all out destruction of the reformation began. Most cathedrals and the settlements around them had to deposit their catholic goodies in vaults which, in turn, were invariably found in or around cathedrals and churches.

The word "deposit" brings us to the next point.......

The Templars are viewed as being the first multi-national bank and they did indeed possess great wealth and they did indeed keep a lot of it it. When a client died, they refused to release the goods to whoever requested them. The clients children could not remove their treasure and nor could the pope. They were not allowed to release the goods to anyone except he who deposited it. Their clients included Kings and other nobles who.....ahem...had great wealth.

It is an in-arguable fact that they vanished from the dock at La Rochelle with many treasures on the day of their disbanding. (Friday 13th of October).

It is also an inarguable fact that Scotland was excommunicated at the same time and that Templars already had resided there for nearly two hundred years. The myth that should be dispelled is that they all simply fled here. Many were already here and many others had homes in Scotland. Their lands were never successfully handed over to the Hospitallers and many Templar families still reside in the areas to this day...........which is impossible if all templars were killed.

One other myth that needs adjusted is that the Templars who were caught, were simply destroyed. Many were sent into other orders to primarily "split them up" from their comrades.

So.........all catholic cathedrals started hiding their records and items of value during the reformation and those who did not had to watch cartloads of valuable documents burn and gold and silver melted down or simply stolen. Add to that a certain cache of relics, treasure and money that belonged to Kings and you have vaults that contain more than bodies.

As an amateur archaeologist and historian I cant entirely dismiss the possibility of a "Cup" or "Mug" that belonged to a freedom fighter called Joshua Ben Joseph. Nor can I dismiss the possibility of there being a gold and wooden box containing some advice.

....but not the Grail or the Ark as they are concieved by catholics.

P.S I collect antiquities and I have relics (not holy relics) from the historical "old Testement period". I know that they exist.....
 
I have just had another productive trip to Dunfermline Abbey (luckily I have a base there) where I was able to visit my countrys most important post-Iona kings and queens burial places ........again!

Anyway, just for you guys, I took a picture of....wait for it......William Schaw's tomb and monumental inscription which was written by his friend Alexander Seton the Earl of Dunfermline. Schaw is thought to be the founder of Modern Freemasonry. He is certainly the first to record the rules of the trade in the form of Statutes. These are commonly called the Schaw Statutes and the first of these date from 1598. He was appointed master of works by King James and helped build part of Dunfermline Abbey. Alexander Seton, earl of Dunfermline was descended from a famous Templar family line. His line of nobility was granted the earldom of Eglinton in my district of Kilwinning/Irvine.

The Schaw statutes went missing a while after they were drafted.........Which is a pity because they would have helped to prove the ancient pedigree of Kilwinning Mother Lodge over all others. Kilwinning would certainly have been nominated as grand lodge in 1734 when Edinburgh required proof and recieved none. Of course the Schaw Statutes turned up and can now be viewed in Edinburgh.

Here is the picture..........
 
...and this is the crest of the Clydesdale Bank beside the abbey:
 
St. Clair,

any more info on this Seton, Earl of Dunfermline? I am interest in this character as an eightennth century Grand Master of Irish Freemaonsry was called Andrew Seton and his tenure was subject to some controversy.

Cheers,

LD
 
Another question to St. Clair

St. Clair,
I meant to ask you about the images on your web pages. I noticed a photo of a small stone on the ground with the Square and Compass. Have you seen any more of these and are they mile markers or are they near older buildings? On a different note. The new news from Rosslyn is exciting. At the very least, I hope they do find the statues and the burrial chambers. Anything more would be great, but I too have my doubts about the fantastical claims. The again, it would be nice if it did have something to do with information on the formation of the Order. I hope to visit there in the near future. I want to play "count the Green Man!"

Thanks!

Marc
 
Well spotted Marcoshark!

I'm afraid that stone is one of my favorite secrets that will have to wait till I publish. It is on Templar land but that much can be derived from the website. Its a great little find though and I suppose you can keep checking the site for updates but much will be reserved for the book. I will need a bit of cash-back at some point in my life because my hobby costs me a fortune....and I neglect my family.:(
 
Aw, what a nice thing to say, thank you!:)

I dont imagine it will have the success of some of the sensationalist books out at the moment and indeed, I approached Knight and Lomas and offered them some information and I heard nothing. Perhaps I should not have expected a reply but I decided to reserve almost everything for my own book. I find it hard to hold my tongue on the message board though. I dont like trading info for money but I do see the sense in trading information for information.

The nice thing about writing about the Templars in Kilwinning and Irvine is that I do not have to resort to legend and fantasy. They are here in black and white and in the stone. My site will probably never speak of grails or arks. It is a fact that they were wealthy and possessed other peoples wealth and thats that. To speak of kilwinning and the Royal Burghs of Scotland is to speak of the Languadoc or Malta when refering to military orders. These places do not have to stoop to legend to make its sites fascinating. Nor do the royal burghs of Scotland.

Bottom line!:)
 
It seems a shame that many of you refrained from clicking on the picture I posted you of The Master of Works William Schaws tomb memorial. It is covered with masonic imagery and I do have close ups of some of the symbols but only 8 people have looked at the picture.....

.....it was a christmass present for youz!:)

8 people?

More than 2000 hits and only 8 people look at this incredibly important picture?

Dear o dear o dear o......:cool:
 
Here is a different angle and light set-up:

No pressure...hehehe:D
 
On the up and coming non-invasive excavation of Rosslyn

problem is....they are only conducting this techno survey outside the grounds of the chapel. It seems that they are still not allowed to survey the interior. Anyone can make a non-invasive survey outside the chapel.

Which is Ironic because...........the Templars themselves may have been refused the same thing when they requested to excavate King Solomons Temple in the 1100s. If they did excavate they would have been strictly forbidden to excavate horizontally into the foundations of the Holy Temple. They would have been allowed to explore the cavities outside the Temple but not the interior.

It may have been for holy reasons....but....it may also have been for similar reasons as Rosslyn. The contents of the Copper Scroll may have been looted by folks who crossed the line into the foundations of the Temple.

But that is just one theory and not neccessarily the one that I conform to, so.........
 
That Rosslyn Place again...

I just wonder how long it will take for us readers to read the results. One thing that I wanted to ask is this: Was the Chapel at one time a part of the St. Clair family home? and if so, will this investigation look at those areas as well?

Thanks!

Marc
 
No it will not!:(

But I tell you...thats a bloody good question!

Yes, Rosslyn was owned by the St Clair family. They also owned land in Orkney. Orkney and Lothian are their official ancient domains if you like.

They had previously owned land in Kilwinning but that was soon owned by other Templar families and descendants.

Damn good question!
 
Now this is interesting!!

St. Clair,
At first glance, I see some very standard Blue Lodge symbols here. Do you know where a better reproduction of this amazing artifact might be?

MS
 
Now that was fast!!

St. Clair,
I just took a look at Mr. Lomas' web site and at the scroll.. Once again, here is another reason to visit! Again, thanks for the info!

M.S.
 
Be careful with Lomas and Knight. They ask the right questions but they are far too conclusive with their answers. I have a love/hate relationship with their views and I tread carefully.

One is an electrical engineer while the other is a Graphic designer and consumer psychologist. These are hardly the qualifications of Templar Historians. They seem to be qualified simply because they have an interest and investment in the topic. Well...so do I. Therefore, my conclusions are as good as theirs. As are yours and other Templar-lore researchers.

Graham hancock is a journalist....:confused:
 
agreed...

I read their book "The Hiram Key" some time ago. it's a good read, but their conclusions, as Author Colin Wilson would say is more "magical thinking". or in simple terms; no smoking gun!

As for Mr. Hancock, well.....
 
Look at this..its about the candidate carving at Rosslyn:

1. The probability that the figure is blindfolded by chance is 0.5 as it can only be blindfolded or not blindfolded. This is a worst case probability that gives the null hypothesis the best chance of succeeding as there is no other blindfolded figure in Rosslyn.

2. The probability that the figure is kneeling by chance is 0.5 as it again can only be kneeling or not kneeling.

3. The probability that the figure is holding a bible by chance is 0.5 as there are again only two possibilities. Holding a bible or not holding a bible.

4. The probability that the figure has noose about its neck by chance is 0.5 even though it is the only figure in Rosslyn with a noose about its neck. Again I am giving the Null Hypothesis the best possible chance of succeeding.

5. The probability that the figure has his feet in a Masonic posture (which the ritual says is the only way a Candidate will be admitted to Freemasonry) by chance is 0.5 because he can have them that way or not. No other figure in Rosslyn holds in feet in this strange symbolic way so again the Null Hypothesis is being given the full benefit of any doubt.

6. The probability that the ceremony is taking place between two pillars by chance is 0.5 because the alternative would be not to place the two pillars there.

7. The probability that a Templar is holding the noose by chance is 0.5 and this is generous towards the Null Hypothesis because the rope could be loose or held by somebody who is not a Templar. In the modern Masonic ceremony the rope is held by the senior deacon whilst the candidate takes his oath hold the bible.

I now needed to consider the possibility of all these seven probabilities occurring at the same time. To find the composite probability I must multiply the separate probabilities together.

So the highest possible probability of the null hypothesis being true is

(0.5)*(0.5)*(0.5)*(0.5)*(0.5)*(0.5)*(0.5) which works out as 0.0078

So there are only eight chances in a thousand that all these elements linking Freemasonry to Templarism and Sir William St Clair are there by co-incidence. This probability is less than the 95% confidence level one in 20 and less than the 99% confidence level of one in 100. There is only one chance in 128 of the links being co-incidence. On this evidence I reject the null hypothesis, that leaves me with a strong claim that Sir William was linked to Freemasonry in 1440 and that this link involved Templars.

So to sum up, if each point of similarity is given a 50% chance of being there by accident. (Which is giving the opposite view the best odds possible) There are only 8 chances in 1000 that it is pure chance. Robert Lomas
Click to expand...
Utter Blether!
 
I have to agree that this is some specious reasoning.

In my own opinion I have to say that there seems to be a distinct connection, but based on this kind of reasoning, the case is severely undermined.

It would be like Eric von Daniken weighing in behind a UFO sighting.

LD
 
Was'nt that stunning?

I am sooo glad that the first people to respond, shared my sentiments exactly.

Here is another one:

Why did William Build Rosslyn?

To house artifacts brought by the Knights Templar to Scotland in 1126. Between 1118 and 1128 the Templars excavated the ruins of Herod’s Temple in Jerusalem.
Click to expand...
I hate the blind certainty. It does nothing for the general research of this subject.

Do you know that the Hiram Key.......

...............has no Bibliography!! :eek!!!!: .......which is bad!
 
So either each thing is thee by utter chance or AMAZINGLY it is all to do with the Templars and freemasons.

This kind of binary logic is utterly pointless it's not yes or no there are THOUSANDS of easons they could have chosen to do what they did, not least because the mason or artist thought it looked better that way.
 
Many_Angled _One,

spot on mate.

This kind of logic gate crap has bugger all to do with anything as it takes no account of the contextual basis of the imagery, the artists and the position.

LD
 
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