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Knights Templar Thread

The Obvious?

Guys,
First off, my thanks for all your insights. Now I want to add my questions:

So, what IS the deal with this place. We all seem to agree that the proofs stated are questionable. My own personal feeling is that to me, it just seems that it might have been a Lodge or the equivalent at one time a long time ago. Or, was it just a personal family chapel that had symbolic meaning to honor the family's past?

I mean, granted, the layout of the chapel resembles a Lodge, but then again, aren't most Lodges based on the biblical descriptions/designs of Solomon's Temple. If this is true, aren't most places of worship based on the same?

I also noticed that there are many carvings that seem to be Masonic in nature and that there seem to be no blatant Christian or Jewish symbols (The Cross and Star of David) so, was this the norm for similar of that age? or am I missing something more here?

I am no expert or amateur when it comes to this. I am just very interested in the possible origins of Freemasonry prior to 1717. Pre old charges. Rosslyn has gotten some major media furor over the last few years. Is it that unique a place that it is truly a one of a kind?

Please explain further!


Marc
 
Thankfully it is Lomas and Knight who deserve the criticism and not Rosslyn Chapel.

Every square inch is carved with intricate and symbolic symbols and sculptures. It was built by the St. Clairs who were descendants of Original Templars and the ancestors of the original freemasons. It does have both masonic and Templar imagery which is anomalous as the Templars were disbanded more than a hundred years before and the freemasons had not yet formed officially. At least not if you were to listen to the English Grand Lodge.

One mistake that Lomas and Knight make is that the building is devoid of Christian imagery. Balderdash! Even in their books they describe images that are strictly christian.

The battle of Roslin in 1303 is not very well known and yet.....8000 scots are said to have defeated 30,000 Englishmen.

(Remember that not only were figures like this exaggerated but that the English Army was partially comprised of Scots Nobles and their tenants)

Lomas and Knights insistance that it is based on the shape of Herods Temple (Not Solomons) and that it has an invisible Star of David on the floor. Most cruciform churches and cathedrals conformed to similar dimensions and motive. You could overlay Rosslyn with so many other abbeys and cathedrals. You can also place an invisible star of david on any floor of any building.

I have performed similar tasks at Kilwinning, Dunfermline, Westminster, Yorkminster, Durham, Canterbury and my living room just to prove that this form of mathematic alignment is guff!

Scatter a handfull of seeds on the ground and then play dot to dot with it and see how many stars and crescents you can make.

......you can even make a grail!

(This attack is inspired by the use of long distance alignments and how the world being covered with antiquities can be used to represent giant symbols that are only there because we invented them with the seeds trick.)
 
I think I might live in an area that might of seen some Templar activity, though I'm not 100% positive.

It all came about when my Mum & Dad were doing some investigating into their family trees. My Mum's maiden name was Brereton, which has stemmed from de Brereton (we reached a dead end once we got there), who came over here with William the Conquerer. They were quite wealthy and a number of them were knights. They took part in the crusades and one of them was one of the four knights who murdered Sir Thomas a' Becket (naughty boy, but good call imho). They've got quite a rich history of murder and involvement in the Civil War, but I won't bore you with the details, suffice to say a couple of them were rumoured to be Templars.

The link to the area where I live is that the de Breretons had ties with the de Biddulphs (along with the de Overtons, again rumoured to have Templars in their number), who were another family of nobels, and they were right on my doorstep. The de Biddulphs also took part in the crusades, and when they returned it's rumoured that they brought back a number of Saracens (or Phoenicians, according to another story) who settled on Biddulph Moor, the village where I was born and spent most of my formative years. Amongst the archeological evidence for these settlers is one interesting little tidbit - a number of graves in the local church with the Templar cross.

The only "proven" area locally that had links with the Knights Templar is/was Hulton Abbey in Keele, a Cistercian monastery. There was also another Cistercian monastery called Dieulacres in Leek, which is a couple of miles away from Biddulph, but it's link with the Templars is rather tenuous.

Ramblings aside, the graves found at Biddulph Church feature the Templar cross, plain as day (Greek T/cross with a circle), though they're not exactly ornate (they're slabs with the cross roughly carved into them). I think that these, coupled with the number of Cistercian monks in the area, and the rumours of Saracen settlers/slaves makes a pretty good case for at least some Templar activity in this quiet little village.
 
The only picture I can find on the net is this, though it doesn't show the older more crudely made ones which bear the Greek T design. The older ones are stylised versions of both the design shown in the picture and the "traditional" Templar cross (though after researching this a little, the Templar cross seems to be a common Norman design anyway). I've got a few pictures of the other graves and coffin lids, along with pictures of the Brereton chapel (built on the grounds of the Brereton house after one of the household returned from the crusades), but in all honesty I'm reluctant to go to the trouble of scanning them in and uploading them for what is (or what will inevitably turn out to be) an online pissing contest. Besides, it’s faaaaaaaaaahmly!

I've no doubt they're medieval. But of course proof is another matter. According to a couple of local historians the older graves etc. were carved by the Saracens, but seeing as the existence of the Saracens is still debatable it leaves it all up in the air. The argument against the existence of the Saracens is that any masonry that resembles Moorish design is purely by influence, and not carried out by the people themselves. But oral history of the area is full of mentions of dark skinned, dark eyed, swarthy men originating from Biddulph Moor who were brought back from the crusades (wether they came over willingly or not is anyone's guess). The whole thing is entirely possible, but not necessarily true, sadly. If it were true it would add a little credence to the idea of Templar activity.

As for tracing the Brereton name, we can go back as far as their arrival over here, and then we’re knackered. We’ve got quite a good mix in our family, my Mum’s side has knights and noblemen who were staunch Royalists, whereas my Dad’s side are all members of the cloth (one of our ancestors gave King Charles I his last rites before he had the chop).
 
I'm reluctant to go to the trouble of scanning them in and uploading them for what is (or what will inevitably turn out to be) an online pissing contest.
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:confused:

I have no doubt they're medieval. But of course proof is another matter.
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The stone in your picture is definately medieval. What the problem?:)
 
You obviously have something to contribute and judging by the picture that you supplied....you have something concrete to contribute. Why the hostility?:)

I personaly would love to see your pics and I have to say that there are no pissing competitions that are un-called for on this thread. If someone has something to contribute and all they do is contribute it......why would any other repercussion occur?

No-one is going to compete with your pictures or knowledge.

Please re-consider scanning those pics?:)

If you posted some info and some pictures and someone began arsing you around.....click the report button and then the Ignore button.
 
Yes please reconsider Aumakua.
 
Aumakua said:
...but seeing as the existence of the Saracens is still debatable...
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Our local Rugby Club is known as The Saracens. The town insignia is a Saracen's Head, and several local roads are 'Saracen' something...

Sad to think this is all built on something 'debatable'!

PS: the town charter dates from 1236.
 
Okay, I'll see what I can rustle up this weekend. I've got a few nice snaps of the headstones, coffin lids and other bits of masonry from around the area, I'll try and get them uploaded and post 'em.

(You'll have to excuse the hostility. I'm very, very cynical when it comes to anything internet related. If you want to know what a belligerent arse I am, just ask Schnor. :) )

I’m 50/50 with the whole Saracens thing. I’m not suggesting for one minute that there have never been any Saracens in this country, only in my area. There have been quite a few outlandish claims about their existence around these parts, but so far the archaeological evidence hasn’t been very forthcoming. Biddulph Moor itself is quite remote even now, so God knows what it was like a few hundred years ago, so a lot of the descriptions of the inhabitants can be put down to mere isolation and inter-breeding (FYI: My teeth are in good health, and no I can’t play the banjo). But there is a common thread that runs through local folklore about the dark skin, which, considering the bloody awful weather around here can’t just be down to a shallow genepool, can it?

One story goes that a Templar by the name of Ormus de Guidon brought the Saracens back with him to work as stonemasons, and they are supposed to be responsible for the carvings on St. Chad’s Church in Stafford. They were then settled on Biddulph Moor, which does seem like a good place to locate them. They were close enough to be called upon for work and they were remote enough so as not to scare the locals. They were also supposed to be employed as bailiffs by the local nobility, which is where the name Bailey is said to originate from, and you can’t move for people named Bailey around here.

Another story about the Saracen's origin is that they were brought over by Bretram de Verdon (the Overlord of Biddulph, who took part in the 3rd Crusade and was killed around 1190 while fighting in Joppa). He is supposed to have brought them back as captives and used them as servants. There is even less evidence to support this claim. There is a nice Templar link here though, he bit the dust at around the same as de Payens formed the Templars. So de Verdon may well of been part of the order during it's infancy (he was present at the battle of Joppa, he was of French descent etc.), he didn't last long though.

Sorry for taking this a little off topic, but the Saracen thing is something I've been interested in for some time. :)
 
Aumakua said:
The link to the area where I live is that the de Breretons had ties with the de Biddulphs (along with the de Overtons, again rumoured to have Templars in their number), who were another family of nobels, and they were right on my doorstep.
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Interesting. This may have some connection with my previous post. I know I may be a little cryptic here but it's amazing (or not!) how important family names are.

I'm really getting quite intrigued here and may get off my fat backside to do some further investigation into Templar activity in my home town (county even!).
 
Aumakua said:
You'll have to excuse the hostility. I'm very, very cynical when it comes to anything internet related.
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Thats as good a reason as any I reckon! :)

Okay, I'll see what I can rustle up this weekend. I've got a few nice snaps of the headstones, coffin lids and other bits of masonry from around the area, I'll try and get them uploaded and post 'em.
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Well...as a show of good will, I will do the same. Most of mine will be 16th and 17th century gravestones and a couple of medieval abbeys. Kilwinning, Dunfermline, etc, etc..

Cheers Aumakua!:)
 
Please ignore this post if irrelevant..the poster is no expert in this field and unsure. But very interested..(Great thread,btw).

Nearby Nanteos Mansion ( Aberystwyth, Wales) is a legendary home of the Grail, via Strata Florida, a ruined abbey and centre of Welsh culture in Medieval times. The folklore links this with the Templars, who are supposed to have brought the grail. (I believe, though, that recent carbon dating of the surviving wooden fragments from Nanteos have proved to be 14 Cent.)

But there was a certainly Hospitallers at nearby Devils Bridge. Here, three bridges are built one above the other. The first was said to be built by the devil, and the story is he wouldnt let the local farmers cross the gorge unless he could claim the soul of the first one to cross. The devil was thwarted when an old woman threw a piece of bread across, and a dog followed it, being the first.
In rational terms, perhaps the Hospitallers built it but, in those days, the Hospitallers were viewed with suspicion by the local church and over time it became the `devil`. ( Just thoughts from I and a local historian).

But what really interests me is that nearby, built on an old stone circle (stones are in the church wall) is a small church, and on its gate a scallop shell. It was on an old pilgrammage route, through Strata Florida in the south, up through here (Ysbyty Cynfynn) and onwards to Holywell in North Wales.

Is this linked to Templar routes in Spain? (I`m thinking of the book `The Pilgrimmage). What is the connection between the Hospitallers and the Templars? And the meaning of the Scallop shell?
(And if ever you get chance, St Clair, please explain about the Egytptian pillar and the Masons...this info is of great personal interest, on a `spiritual` level not really relevant here).

Again..ignore please if off topic.

Hagrid.
 
I will not forgive you for it being Off Topic...........'cos its not off topic!:D

This thread was to deal with the truth, the fantasy and the legend of both. It was to deal with local and international legends....be it myth, fact or fiction. In the hope of obtaining more truths we should embrace as much as we can......or at least those things that seem slightly more reasonable.

Its mad to follow a legend that stops (or started) in 1982.

I dont think it is mad to listen to Chevalier Ramsey's oration. Even then, however, we must study the context of this fascinating but more importantly, formally recorded claim of antiquity.

I dont think its crazy to attach a reasonably level of attachement to something locally profound and historic. Especially when you can find no reference to it in any "mainstream" books. Or the net, of course. We find a greater frequency and variety of local information when we visit the libraries, second hand (out of print) books and the actual places of interest. Which I have stressed a few times should be top of your list. Although, thats easy for me to say and harder for others.

If you have the means and networks, I strongly recommend associating yourself with the local gentry. A Lord or Earls library contains much that is absent from any bookshop I have been in.

Although many are simply aesthetic and truly have no value to a local researcher.

Anyhoo.......I have just realised that this post is possibly far more "Off Topic" than any other.

....blah....blah.......rhubarb.....rhubarb....... :p

The Knights of St John of Jerusalem (The Hospitallers) were formed to care for injured pilgrims. The Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon were formed to "body-guard" the pilgrims

Your pilgrim trail may of course be connected to those in spain quite literally. Go one way and you arrive at your Holy Well. Has anyone discovered if the route to the south eventualy meets with a pilgrim route to the Holy Land.

HOLY WELL---Ysbyty Cynfynn----------HOLY LAND

Like many of the pilgrim routes the above is possible. Like the national cycle network. You can use it to visit your local sites but you can always vere of go to......the highlands local sites.

For pilgrims.....the longer the journey, the more they sacrifice for god and the more they display their devotion in pain. Mental.:hmph:

Its thought that the Eqyptian pillar came about when people (like Ramsey for example) began to romanticise about the antiquity of the Freemasons. The had its origins in the Egypt and a old testament world. However........(I presume you mean the Obelisk as opposed to Roman)

There are many antiquated sources to draw information concerning Enochs Pillar(s). These pillars were reputed (courtesy of the Old T.) to have been built to contain the teachings of civilisation as an auto-recovery from the next natural disaster.
It told the next, unprepared people how to restore civilisation. Primarily it contained detailed instructions on how to build. One pillar (if memory serves) was construced of marble and the other was copper. One would survive a flood and the other would survive a fire. I may have the materials wrong so I will check and ammend.

It is suggested by masonic lore (Antient rite) that these pillars lay until the ancient Egyptians discovered one and their culture became an incredible civilisation over night. The rite tells us that the other pillar was found by the Jews. When the Jewish reference was made and re written again it was probably derogatory or even neglected. I think perhaps they were refering to the building in the middle east as opposed to north Africa. It is further suggested in the ritual that the Templars found one of these pillars and began to employ stone masons (which of course is absolutely true. They did employ stone masons and they were one of their greatest commodities.) to construct the detailed architectural diagrams and formulae on the pillar.

It further states that the pillar was carried to Kilwinning. It does not state that it was then moved to rosslyn. Rosslyn as far as I have seen (please prove me wrong...it would be nice) never gets a mention in antient scottish rite freemasonry. Kilwinning does and more importantly, it was re-enforced in the Schaw Statutes in 1598. It was already being described as "The Antient Ludge" of "Scotland". And therefore, "Britain" and finally...the "world". Scottish rite and the celebration forthwith as the leading and oldest system in the world and it is one of the most prolific and certainly the most researched.

An egypitian pillar journey occured again (if the first one ever did) several hundred years later when two pillars were moved from egypt to the USA and England.

You can see "Cleopatra's" needle on the Embankment of London and is indeed a genuine Egyptian pillar. It has nothing to do with cleopatra and is many times older. It was funded and planned by freemasons and I think six freemasons lost their lives shipping it over. It began to slip into the sea....and they were able to pull a 70 ton obelisk back onto the boat. The men died. They saved the free standing pillar. Incredible.
 
A mobile phone mast is to be set up inside the hollow clock tower of Kilwinning Abbey. The project was given the go-ahead by North Ayrshire Council. Councillors agreed that the Vodaphone mast should be monitored for emissions while the previous mast in Garden Square will be removed.

Existing timber panels on the tower will be replaced with balsa wood.

There were no complaints from the residents of Kilwinning.

kilwinning councillor, Jaqueline Brown said: "If you want a moblie phone there's got to be a transmitter for it. It's in the tower...out of sight. I know people will have reservations about it but it will be closely monitored.

I dispair, folks!:confused:
 
I have just discovered that my Local North Ayrshire museum, whose walls have not been seen by me since I was very small, contain a Templar Coffin that was discovered in Ardrossan's castle hill. A site where I discovered my first crusaders grave.

I saw the coffin when I was small but I thought it was a Roman sarcophagus.

I am going to have to pay it a visit soon.:)
 
St Clair are you aware there is a book that contains translations of original Templar documents, letters etc?

I seen it in Borders in Glasgow a while ago, thought it was very interesting, thought you might be interested as well.

A lovely take of the Templars was a town in Germany where the town mayor & authorities were talking of arresting & charging all the local Templars when the chapter master walked in and said somethin like "Fair enough, trial by combat then is it?". Needless to say they dropped the charges :)
 
Many_Angled_One said:
chapter master walked in and said somethin like "Fair enough, trial by combat then is it?". Needless to say they dropped the charges :)
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Which is a mode of trial that the Templars would find very familiar. Did they give the heathen a fair trial? As crusaders fighting for an immoral and unjust cause, they were most certainly guilty of this.

This may shock some of you, as I am the person that started the thread, but I am not a Templar sympathiser. They were brutal crusader murderers who were empowered by a murdering church.
Their trial was a mockery and should have contained their real crimes against humanity and not a bunch of trumped up charges.

The Templars were guilty and deserved to be punished. However, the punishers were equally if not more guilty than the Order of warrior monks and as such should have faced dire consequences.

It is for this reason that I could never join any of the pseudo-Templar orders around today. Especially if one was clearly connected with the actual Templars. Which none of them are.

I would find it deeply disturbing that this dangerous order could still exist without any shame. The inquisition still exists in one form does it not?

P.S Borders book shop will be my next visit. Thanks for the pointer.
 
This may shock some of you, as I am the person that started the thread, but I am not a Templar sympathiser. They were brutal crusader murderers who were empowered by a murdering church.
Their trial was a mockery and should have contained their real crimes against humanity and not a bunch of trumped up charges.
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It was a sign of the times i'm afraid. They were no worse or better than the rest of the crusaders. Bear in mind that the kingdoms of Europe had been fed immense propoganda by the Church, of Christians being slaughtered, raped, robbed, sold into slavery etc by the evil people of the area who would not let peaceful pilgrims pass unmolested. This is not unwarranted however as it did happen, mostly by the Turks however. They were displaced from Jerusalem by the Egyptians I believe before the 1st crusade ever reached there.... unfortunatly it was too late to stop I think. Which is a shame as the rulers were far more tolerant to christian worship, indeed allowing it to be freely worshipped without threat of harm. If only it had happened a few years earlier the 1st Crusade likely would never have happened.

The Templars were initially formed saying they wished to protect the defenceless pilgrims against the attacks by bandits & muslims, an admirable goal.

They did do many vile things, no doubt believing it had to be done to protect their people but still, many horrific acts were carried out.
 
Hagrid said:
And the meaning of the Scallop shell?
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The scallop shell was associated with the pilgrimmage site at Santiago de Compostela (think I got the spelling right). Pilgrims who had been to the site would carry a scallop shell as a badge signifying that they had been there, a number have been found placed in Medieval burials and so on. I would look there for your connection, it was I believe, a very popular pilgrimmage.
 
Apparently the legend of the scallop shell comes from a story about James the Just, brother of Jesus, when he went to visit Crete. He was ship wrecked as he neared the island and managed to swim ashore. Legend has it that when he reached the beach, the first thing his hand met was a scallop shell. It became his symbol for slavation. The Santiago de Compostella pilgrimage I think is linked with James.

LD
 
Lorddrakul,

The Santiago de Compostella pilgrimage is indeed linked with James. Off the top of my head, it's claimed as the resting place of the remains of the said saint.
A chivalrous order, modelled on the Templars/Hospitallers/Teutonic Knights operated from here and their rather quaint motto was "Reuben ensis sanguine Arabum".
Try that as a bumper sticker and see how long you get away with it for :D
Thanks for the PM btw - I am a Louth man, I can't be more specific as the Assassins (those hash smoking infidel who pay homage to the Templars) and the SWP are after me as I know too much! :gaga:
 
Hi Hospitaller,

cheers for that. As far as I know the scallop was an inportant image to the Templars, but they generally have more overt associations to the Saints John, as in Baptist and Evangelist, than to poor old James.

How did James end up in Iberia when he wasn't too hot on telling the gentiles about the whole jesus thing?

Yeah, just wondering about where abouts you were. Not too many Paddies about on the board.

Cheers,

LD
 
It's not only as the head of the Jerusalem church that James, "the Lord's brother", probably has better claim to the title of "The First Pope" than has Peter. A careful reading of Luke's "Acts of the Apostles" shows him to be the most prominent leader of early Christians than was Peter.
F.F. Bruce wrote a very revealing and analytical book on the topic of Non-Pauline movements in the early church called "Men and Movements in the Primitive Church" which is well worth consulting for more info.
James headed up an element which held very much to the Jewish religion (some more so than others), and a critical reading of "The Acts..." shows just how much of a diplomat James was in uniting Jew & Gentile, as well as the sway he held over what was at the time seen as just another radical Jewish sect. It's obvious from Paul's writings and Luke's account that Paul held James in high esteem and respected his leadership.
James seems never to have married and is said to have been quite the ascetic - and seems subsequently to have been held in high esteem by converts from the Pharisees and other legalistic Jewish elements in the Jerusalem church. He was very much responsible for having these elements "stick with the program" and engineered the compromise between the opposing factions as recorded in chapter 15 of Acts.
Historians reckon that Christian tales of Jame's visit to Spain is mere hagiography. Several contemporary historians tell us that James outlived Peter and was killed before the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD.
As for the relics, they were said to have been brought to Spain during the Roman persecution and lost - their 'discovery' in 829AD provided a convenient rallying point for Christian Spain, as most of the Iberian peninsula was under Islam at that time.
 
I was looking for less profane involvment in this subject and was hoping it to be more on the square than it is. However, much has been learned from reading this thread and I would like to ask the thread starter a question?

Why do people revere and uphold the memory of an order whose troops were smelly, disgruntled, overly-principled murderers that worked for a murderous and barbaric church?

Why have these insane crusaders been glorified and romanticised when the actual truth is hard to bear if you a good person?

Why should I be free to criticise the catholic church but not the Templars?

You said that you lived on their land. That sounds amazing. Except for one thing. They were brutal murderers and this fact can't really comfort you.

I would like this question answered because although I share a love of this period, I don't pretend that it was sweetness and light. I take pride in the fact that Robert Bruce never took part in a crusade. I dislike the fact that he always wanted to.

I mean no offence and I may be wrong but the Templars need less glory. Their vast wealth in the period that they had it was glory enough I think. Then again.......:)
 
ExiledOutlaw,

I think that it is yourself showing a bit of naivety here.

You may well ask why do people idolise Alexander, Napoleon or Julius Caesar, they were all muderous invaders who ruthlessly expanded their borders for glory and power.

Very few people, groups or orders in history are revered for their kitty petting, flower sniffing, down right nice ways. It is a fact of human condition, as lamentable as having a nose, in that it is something beyond our control.

Even Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Florence Nightingale and Oscar Schindler have their shady sides.

So to be so absolutist is not realistic. Heroes, whoever they are are revered more for their ideals than their practical implementation of them.

LD
 
Apologies if any of this post is naive or interrupts the flow as ive only read from page 8 to here and know nothing about the templars (apart from reading Ivanhoe!). This thread is very interesting tho and im going to go and read the rest after this.
The Templar cross is like a Maltese cross in a circle, right? Well, wandering to work in Oxford every morning i go through St. Giles graveyard where there are very old graves, at least two of which have this symbol- ive also seen it carved in the side of one of the colleges. Does Oxford have a strong templar link?
The richest college here is St. John's (and has been for the past 800 years) and has a pub called the lamb and flag- is this a templar (or more likely hospitaller) association?
cheers
Ross
 
barndad said:
The richest college here is St. John's (and has been for the past 800 years) and has a pub called the lamb and flag- is this a templar (or more likely hospitaller) association?
cheers
Ross
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I think there'd be arguments as to the richest - Christchurch also makes that claim.
Anyway, have a look at Keble Chapel entrance - also has the Lamb & Flag above the door. I did find out what it represented once, but I can't remember any more. Bah. Don't remember any templar meaning though.
Also, a lot of graves do have the cross in circle on the headstone so don't think that indicates Templars or anything! However, I've discovered that Oxford does have Templar links - Templar's Square shopping centre near (Temple) Cowley takes its name from a Templar place nearby - I think I posted something about it earlier in the thread. Not that I know a lot about Templars - they've just intrigued me ever since I first heard of them. Or perhaps it's that I've always dreamed of stumbling across a forgotten horde of Templar treasure ;)

Is that the grave yard at the North or South end of St Giles? I tend to walk through the North one, but round the South one, which is supposed to be haunted. (That's not the reason I walk round it - there just isn't a path that goes through)

Steve.
 
OK, after a batch of web searching, it appears that the Lamb is the symbol representing John the Baptist (aka the Lamb of God), and is often shown with the flag which symbolises the victory of the Cross. According to this page anyway. Certainly the image looks pretty identical. No Templar links I'm afraid.
Also, St Johns is named after John the Baptist, so that tallies.
Can't figure out why Keble chapel has it though.

Steve.
 
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