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Lies, Liars & Lying

MrRING

Android Futureman
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
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Remember the recent fuss made over the lying journalists who made up high-profile, award-winning stories, then got fired or quit when the truth was discovered?

Well, it turns out gifted film producer Val Lewton got started out doing the same thing! To quote from IMDB:

Lost his job as a reporter for the Darien-Stamford Review after it was discovered that a story about a truckload of kosher chickens dying in a New York heat wave was a total fabrication.

http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0507932/bio

And it made me wonder - how many post-Yellow Journalism newspaper reporters have been scandalized for making up stories only to go on to famous careers in other fields? Or is Val Lewton it?
 
I wonder if OfCom will be as ineffectual as all the other "watchdog" organisations set-up to go "tut-tut!" at piss-poor business practices?
 
There's a story on'ere somewhere about a bloke who pretended to be ex-airborne SAS or summat and had a photo on his desk apparently of himself in uniform.
Someone visiting who knew all about it rumbled him with questions on details like the difficulty of landing a plane at some base which doesn't have an airstrip.

People who have genuinely served in shady regiments aren't keen on discussing it. They can get locked up.
 
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My mum was terrific for maintaining to anyone who listened that I was a scatterbrained, disorganised slattern who could barely put her pants on the right way round most days. She always had this kind of 'sighing resignation' about me. I was clearly not going to live up to her dream of becoming a hairdresser...

The cognitive dissonance when people asked her how I managed to bring up five children as a single parent, write books and hold down a steady job must have nearly killed her. I don't think she was directly lying, it's just that I had been scatterbrained and slightly disorganised AS A CHILD. And she could never quite lose that image of me.

Plus, ADD, so, yeah.
 
...People who have genuinely served in shady regiments aren't keen on discussing it. They can get locked up.

I'm not actually sure that's the case. They probably can't discuss operations without some sort of official sanction, but I don't think there's any ban on advertising your membership after the fact (or if there is, it's clearly not rigorously enforced). Quite a few ex-SAS have written books and been on TV over the years, and not all of them hide their identities (in fact I recall one quite well-known Scottish ex SAS soldier stating in no uncertain terms - and with colourful language - that he thought a certain author used the paraphernalia of secrecy/anonymity as a theatrical and promotional tool).

There's a story on'ere somewhere about a bloke who pretended to be ex-airborne SAS or summat and had a photo on his desk apparently of himself in uniform.

Someone visiting who knew all about it rumbled him with questions on details like the difficulty of landing a plane at some base which doesn't have an airstrip...

I think it's in the movie Ronin that De Niro's character busts Sean Bean's claim to SAS membership by asking him about something along the lines of the colour of the boathouse at Hereford (something like that - years since I've seen it). If I recall correctly, the reveal is kind of completely undermined by the fact that the De Niro character obviously has no idea how to pronounce Hereford - or at least, not in any way that anyone who had been anywhere near Hereford would recognise.

Edit: Here we go - much to my surprise, I kind of remembered it right:

 
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People who have genuinely served in shady regiments aren't keen on discussing it. They can get locked up.

This is my (limited) experience.

And they are often the individual you would least suspect of such things...may very well be chosen for that reason.

But I also suspect there are Narutos, who are chosen because they are boisterous and tell wild stories...that no one believes.
 
I'm not actually sure that's the case. They probably can't discuss operations without some sort of official sanction,
Yup, it was talking about the operations that's discouraged. Was hoping to smoke out the poster who'd worked with the lying colleague so we could enjoy the details.
 
This same chap also claimed to have been in the special forces and personally in charge of training the SEALs. The only official SEALs unit is American, although the Royal Thai Navy also has a unit often referred to as the Seals. I doubt that either had a Greek senior training officer about 5 feet tall. (150 cm or so.)

Greece does, in fact, have a unit equivalent to the US Navy SEALs: the OYK.

Doesn’t make him not full of ****, though!

maximus otter
 
I think it's in the movie Ronin that De Niro's character busts Sean Bean's claim to SAS membership by asking him about something along the lines of the colour of the boathouse at Hereford (something like that - years since I've seen it). If I recall correctly, the reveal is kind of completely undermined by the fact that the De Niro character obviously has no idea how to pronounce Hereford - or at least, not in any way that anyone who had been anywhere near Hereford would recognise

That's my main memory of that scene - De Niro saying "Hear-ford" instead of "Herrifud"!
 
Greece does, in fact, have a unit equivalent to the US Navy SEALs: the OYK.

I didn't specifically know that detail, thanks. Most developed countries have special services units, and in the case of a country with as many islands as Greece, I'd automatically assume they have some kind of naval special forces.

I'm not a military man myself, but I have a brother who is an ex squaddie, and I've known a few others. I don't think any of them would give their own unit the wrong name even in conversation. I would have expected a proud Greek veteran either to say nothing at all, or to call it the "OYK" and perhaps explain, "It's like our version of the SEALs" or "our version of the SBS".

Be that as it may, the man had neither the stature nor the personal bearing to have been a genuine elite warrior. He had about the right frontal area to be a hoplon, but not the physique to be a hoplite.
 
They probably can't discuss operations without some sort of official sanction, but I don't think there's any ban on advertising your membership after the fact (or if there is, it's clearly not rigorously enforced). Quite a few ex-SAS have written books and been on TV over the years, and not all of them hide their identities (

Back in the late 80’s early 90’s mum dated an Irishman who’s father had been in the IRA way back. (True story)
He ended up with a lodger who was ex-SAS (he did send SAS Christmas cards, and there is probably one still around with my mum‘s effects)

However the lodger was a big drinker and bit mouthy about things he’s done, and one evening when he, mum and her ex were out, he was approached by two completely nondescript looking men who had a quiet word with him. One of them briefly spoke to my mum on her way to the loo, and she said that although there were completely normal looking, just wearing jeans etc, she had never in her life felt such a sense of menace. Not toward her, (the man was polite) but a general feeling that they ought not be be crossed. It was palpable. He didn’t say he was SAS or anything, but something along the lines of working for the same people or the same job. Something vague.

General consensus was that they had had a quiet word with lodger about shooting his mouth off. He moved out not long after, but continued to send cards for a year or two.

This was back before ex SAS writing books and being on t.v. and so forth so possibly it was less talked about back then.
 
...This was back before ex SAS writing books and being on t.v. and so forth so possibly it was less talked about back then.

I think it's probably true to state that genuine members don't go around shouting about the fact - but my impression is that the level of secrecy these days is not quite at the level it was during the Troubles, when many serving soldiers of all types took pains to limit their profile. My brother was in the Royal Engineers, did several tours in the 80's and 90's and was careful about how he acted, how visible his status was, and who he spoke to - even in mainland UK, and especially on journeys to and from his postings.
 
Was told this story by the bloke I worked with .To start with he had a scooter (lambretta!!) i think which of course could do 85 miles an hour SIGH. So he was in wales drinking in a pub near or in the Brecon Beacons.
When I load of SAS lads came in for a drink anyway the story ended he drunk them all under the table and did the survival course in record time and they gave him a beret and said if they needed him would he come to help them out
 
Having read the OP, I have this to say:

You just have to watch/listen to the media to see that compulsive lying is endemic in this society.

I used to listen to a lot of radio, BBC channels mostly. Shows with invited guests, nowadays almost always celebrities, are lies from beginning to end. In the first instance, the celebs are there to advertise themselves. They advertise their wonderful lives, what wonderful friends they have, what a wonderful job they have etc, etc. Like all advertising, this is lying from beginning to end. Then there was the likes of Michael Parkinson. What a sycophant. He was always "fascinated" by his guests, who were generally "wonderful" or "fascinating" people. Again, lies from beginning to end. Celebs are simply not that fascinating. In fact, they have generally led very uninteresting lives. I want to hear about real people i.e. ordinary folks, not celebs. (Having said which, a former friend of mine was just as bad at advertising her life i.e. lying about her “wonderful” life, as those celebs. When looking behind the hype, it was easy to spot that her life was far from perfect.)

Other BBC programmes feature professionals, many of whom are also celebs. Scientists, for example, also advertise their work as wonderful, often using the word “privileged” in their advertising e.g. they feel “privileged” to work in their particular field of science. I have a close relative who was a research scientist and her experience of science was completely different. Given my own experience of employment, I go with my relative and not what I hear in the media.

Aside from lying about what wonderful lives they have, radio and tv guests are usually on shows to advertise their new film, new book or whatever. They are using lies to sell their products.

Then you watch the likes of YouTube. Most, if not all, of the channels are thinly disguised advertising. That is how YouTube makes its money. Lies, damned lies and advertising.........

Next, magazines. Magazines make their money from advertising. Therefore, they must carry articles which advertise the products their paymasters are selling. Printed media, or online media, is all lies. These lies are obvious on closer inspection of the articles.

My now deceased aunt used to offer this advise to me: she said it was a waste of time asking a neighbour about their new e.g. central heating, because you’d never get an honest answer. They would say that their central heating was wonderful mostly because they were playing at keeping up with the Joneses. They would therefore never own up to having made a mistake with the installer etc. There is some truth in that wisdom, I have found.

Finally, to the Advertising Standards Authority. It is currently running an advert on my local radio station. It claims that it ensures that all advertising is legal, decent, honest and truthful. I accept the legal bit, but the rest is lies, damned lies and advertising……

Conclusion: the world is full of compulsive liars.

As to why? Well, we live in a competitive society, a dog-eat-dog society. That is where compulsive lying comes from and why its practice is so widespread.
 
I agree we all lie and particularly white lies.

I'm perhaps a bit too honest for my own good but compulsive liars are different.

I do remember a girl at school (a long time ago) who would make up really silly stuff like her having a swimming pool despite several of us going to her house and there being no swimming pool.

It was harmless lying but made no sense coz she would be constantly caught out.
 
It was harmless lying but made no sense coz she would be constantly caught out.

I do not agree that this sort of lying is harmless. No lying is harmless.

I do not know if you have watched the tv series Game of Thrones. If you have, then you may remember a scene between Cersei and her son Joffrey. Joffrey has lied about his recent encounter with Arya, the butcher's boy and Sanza. He claims in an earlier scene in front of his father that he was an innocent in the whole affair - which was a lie. However, his mother tells him that he can make up any story he likes, for the truth is what he makes it. (In this scene, and to his credit, Joffrey admits to being a coward, but his mother encourages him to lie all the same.)


When people lie routinely like that, then they lose their grip on reality, which is what Cersei is, in fact, encouraging in Joffrey. Joffrey has a tenuous enough grip on reality without Cersei encouraging him and making it worse. Of course, Joffrey is murdered. He is so used to making up lies about himself and the world that he has no idea the consequences to him of antagonising people the way he does. (Antagonise? No, torture.) He is murdered. Cersei behaves similarly. She has little grip on reality either. She is known to "use the truth to tell lies". She similarly antagonises people and she loses the support of her subjects, and loses her life, as a consequence.

And, of course, you hit the nail on the head when you said that your friend would eventually be caught out with her lies. In the first instance, if you are known to be a liar, then you will not be trusted. In addition, it is extremely hard work keeping up with one’s own lies. One has to always remember what one said to whom and when. Apart from the other consequences of lying, lying is extremely hard work, it’s exhausting. And, as you say, one will be caught out eventually.
 
I do not agree that this sort of lying is harmless. No lying is harmless.

I do not know if you have watched the tv series Game of Thrones. If you have, then you may remember a scene between Cersei and her son Joffrey. Joffrey has lied about his recent encounter with Arya, the butcher's boy and Sanza. He claims in an earlier scene in front of his father that he was an innocent in the whole affair - which was a lie. However, his mother tells him that he can make up any story he likes, for the truth is what he makes it. (In this scene, and to his credit, Joffrey admits to being a coward, but his mother encourages him to lie all the same.)


When people lie routinely like that, then they lose their grip on reality, which is what Cersei is, in fact, encouraging in Joffrey. Joffrey has a tenuous enough grip on reality without Cersei encouraging him. Of course, Joffrey is murdered. He is so used to making up lies about himself and the world that he has no idea the consequences to him of antagonising people the way he does. (Antagonise? No, torture.) He is murdered. Cersei behaves similarly. She has little grip on reality either. She is known to "use the truth to tell lies". She similarly antagonises people and she loses the support of her subjects, and loses her life, as a consequence.

And, of course, you hit the nail on the head when you said that your friend would eventually be caught out with her lies. In the first instance, if you are known to be a liar, then you will not be trusted. In addition, it is extremely hard work keeping up with one’s own lies. One has to always remember what one said to whom and when. Apart from the other consequences of lying, lying is extremely hard work, it’s exhausting. And, as you say, one will be caught out eventually.
Well it was harmless to me back then coz we were just kids but if she carried on with that behaviour into her adult life, then it will cause a great deal of pain and upset and confusion to those closest.

The lying my ex did has destroyed my trust in people and caused even more mental health issues than I had before.

His lies were another level. It was almost munchausen type cos he invented a terrible heredity illness and lied about his dad's cancer.

Stuff like that.

I've never seen games of thrones before but I horribly know first hand the damage of what lying causes and his lies were not harmless.

He was jealous of his father but it literally makes my blood run cold, the horrible lies he came out with.
 
There is a flip side to that. If you are basically an honest person telling true stories accurately, there are those in any group who will mentally apply a percentage discount to your claims, to allow for your presumed exaggeration.

In banter among mates, it is common to exaggerate for comic effect, or to tidy up details to make a better story when the entertainment value and the bonding effect of a shared story is more important than its literal accuracy.

However, as someone who is afflicted with a need for precision, accuracy and honesty, I never exaggerate the numbers. It is then frustrating when I tell a true story of one of my more determined motorcycling, bicycling, unicycling, sailing, or diving exploits only to see the other person silently condemning me as a liar with their eyes.
 
His lies were another level. It was almost munchausen type cos he invented a terrible heredity illness and lied about his dad's cancer.

Stuff like that.

That's appalling.

My father was a liar. For example, he used to come home at night for his tea and when my mother put his food down in front of him he'd pick at it. Finally he'd get up from the table declaring that he wouldn't eat that "muck". We found out later, much later, that when he did this, it was because he'd had tea at his mother's, so he wasn't actually hungry. ( BTW: My mother's cooking, while plain, was wholesome and tasty.)

My father was a businessman. The shop had a half-day closure on Wednesday afternoons. He used to tell my mother when he went out on those afternoons that he had work to do at the shop. We later found out that he spent those afternoons "working" on the golf course.

These are but two of his lies. My parents finally divorced when I was in my early 20s.

Did it take you long to discover your husband was lying?
 
I do not agree that this sort of lying is harmless. No lying is harmless.

I do not know if you have watched the tv series Game of Thrones. If you have, then you may remember a scene between Cersei and her son Joffrey. Joffrey has lied about his recent encounter with Arya, the butcher's boy and Sanza. He claims in an earlier scene in front of his father that he was an innocent in the whole affair - which was a lie. However, his mother tells him that he can make up any story he likes, for the truth is what he makes it. (In this scene, and to his credit, Joffrey admits to being a coward, but his mother encourages him to lie all the same.)


When people lie routinely like that, then they lose their grip on reality, which is what Cersei is, in fact, encouraging in Joffrey. Joffrey has a tenuous enough grip on reality without Cersei encouraging him and making it worse. Of course, Joffrey is murdered. He is so used to making up lies about himself and the world that he has no idea the consequences to him of antagonising people the way he does. (Antagonise? No, torture.) He is murdered. Cersei behaves similarly. She has little grip on reality either. She is known to "use the truth to tell lies". She similarly antagonises people and she loses the support of her subjects, and loses her life, as a consequence.

And, of course, you hit the nail on the head when you said that your friend would eventually be caught out with her lies. In the first instance, if you are known to be a liar, then you will not be trusted. In addition, it is extremely hard work keeping up with one’s own lies. One has to always remember what one said to whom and when. Apart from the other consequences of lying, lying is extremely hard work, it’s exhausting. And, as you say, one will be caught out eventually.
I watched game of thrones
(Thats a lie i never have) its a example of a white lie in which nobody gets hurt, some lies are harmless and some lies are told to spare people getting hurt, a father may tell his young child their mother died in an accident, when in reality they committed suicide due to post natal depression, it is a lie to spare the child feeling that they are to blame and done with the best intentions. Eventually the true maybe found out or the truth explained to the child when they are mature enough to understand the situation, and yes this can have negative results, but these are just 2 examples at each end of the spectrum.
 
There is a flip side to that. If you are basically an honest person telling true stories accurately, there are those in any group who will mentally apply a percentage discount to your claims, to allow for your presumed exaggeration.

In banter among mates, it is common to exaggerate for comic effect, or to tidy up details to make a better story when the entertainment value and the bonding effect of a shared story is more important than its literal accuracy.

I take the line that that is still lying, even if done without the intention to deceive. The trouble is that when one exaggerates these stories often enough, then one forgets the truth and starts to believe the lie i.e. the exaggerated story. Irrespective of how innocently done, I still think this is lying and is still harmful. When one starts to believe the exaggerated story, one is losing one's grip on reality.

However, as someone who is afflicted with a need for precision, accuracy and honesty, I never exaggerate the numbers. It is then frustrating when I tell a true story of one of my more determined motorcycling, bicycling, unicycling, sailing, or diving exploits only to see the other person silently condemning me as a liar with their eyes.

It is possible to spot the lies from the truth. In a word: life experience.

I had an acquaintance who routinely lied about having a bad back. I do not think she knew she was lying, but she was. The reason I knew she was lying is because I had experienced a bad back myself. I knew what it felt like, how it made me move awkwardly etc, etc. Thus, when I saw my acquaintance putting on a bad back, her act was all wrong, it was inauthentic, and therefore I knew it was a lie.

Conversely, when I had a plumber at my house carrying out repairs, he told me he'd just come back to work after a few days off with a bad back. When he moved, I saw instantly it was authentic, and thus my own experience told me he was telling the truth.

Perhaps the other people you speak to need more life experience in order to know that you are telling the truth. That said, people play games all the time. One game they play is to look unconvinced. One effect of this game is to undermine the other person's confidence. People have played that game with me.
 
You have to define 'lie' When a colleague brings a new baby in the office and all the women are cooing about it being so beautiful, even I wouldn't say , 'well, in reality, it looks like a deformed piglet'.

And yet, what is truth? Maybe they do see it as beautiful.
 
I take the line that that is still lying, even if done without the intention to deceive. The trouble is that when one exaggerates these stories often enough, then one forgets the truth and starts to believe the lie i.e. the exaggerated story. Irrespective of how innocently done, I still think this is lying and is still harmful. When one starts to believe the exaggerated story, one is losing one's grip on reality.

I hear what you are saying and respect your integrity, but I see it differently. I think it is very much context dependent.

A case in point: my Morris dance side. We were formed in 1968 and still have a few founder members. I only joined in 1983. Between us, we have many legends: stories based on truth but which have grown in the telling. They are part of our shared heritage as a group and are part of what binds us together.

A few years ago, a relatively new member took over responsibility for the side's scrap books and photo albums and then designated himself an "archivist". He did some phenomenal work and it was a true labour of love. He created a week by week timeline of 50 years of side history. He established and recorded the dates when members joined and left, listed the dates of major performances and events, and scanned and catalogued thousands of photos. I can honestly say that no other Morris side has a more accurate and well curated archive.

However, in the pub after a few beers, whenever someone asks "Do you remember...?" as an opening gambit for some good natured banter and teasing about the old days, the archivist is now able to chirp up immediately with the date, who was present, and what actually happened, based on his interviews with the key participants. Yes, really. No one has to try to remember, no one has to place the date of an event based on when their kids were born, or what job they were doing. There can now be no friendly dispute about which pub an incident happened at, or whether it was before or after some related event.

In creating something impressive and accurate, the archivist has damaged something that was valuable to us all.

I would rather catch an flickering glimpse of a beautiful butterfly and wonder about the species than see a dead one pinned and labelled in a display cabinet.

More widely, we all recognise the difference between history (what really happened) legend (romanticised stories with some historical basis but no pretence at accuracy) myth (a loose collection of shared cultural narratives with little or no historical basis) and fiction (stories deliberately created for entertainment). Each has its place.

In the right context, legends (whether it be the legend the day John confronted the skinhead at Manchester Ring Meeting, or the legends of Robin Hood or King Arthur) make us richer and bond us together.

In the wrong context, legends can be destructive, reinforcing a shared sense of historical injustice, or of hatred towards an historical enemy.
 
I watched game of thrones
(Thats a lie i never have) its a example of a white lie in which nobody gets hurt,

No. You get hurt if you lie.

some lies are harmless and some lies are told to spare people getting hurt, a father may tell his young child their mother died in an accident, when in reality they committed suicide due to post natal depression, it is a lie to spare the child feeling that they are to blame and done with the best intentions.

No lies are harmless.

Lying is bad behaviour. It is a bad habit to get into, no matter how innocent the intention. And the problem with bad behaviour is that the person who, for example, lies, eventually gets hoist by their own petard. In other words, lying is more harmful to the perpetrator than to the person being lied to. That is the psychological effect of any bad behaviour. (I might add here that “good” behaviour only has beneficial effects on the well-behaved person as well as on those around them.)

A common wisdom which people have forgotten: when people look at the world, they do not see the world, they see themselves.

So, for example, when a liar looks at the world, they see a world of liars. And thus, being unable to distinguish an honest person from a dishonest person, they lose their grip on reality. That is harmful. If a person is paranoid, then they see a world in which everyone is out to get them. And thus, being unable to identify a person’s real intentions, they also lose their grip on reality. That is very harmful. (Think of the film “A beautiful Mind” in which the main character is paranoid. He was suspicious of everyone, was a conspiracy theorist, in fact. So, I wonder where conspiracy theories come from, then? What might their root psychological cause be? Answer: paranoia.)

As to judging what is good for a child and what is not: The truth is ALWAYS the best course of action. (Wrapping children in cotton wool is also extremely harmful to the child. It makes them psychologically weak. It turns such children into the type of child who is, say, easily groomed by a child abuser.)

And as to the possibility that a child may feel guilty about a parent committing suicide? As I said in an earlier post, people play games all the time. Children learn to play these games from their parents. The child feigning being “racked with guilt” may well have seen this as an opportunity to attract attention to itself. And the idea of using guilt will have somehow been planted in its head by a parent. (Attention seeking is a common, and very harmful, affliction among children, as I know from many years’ experience as a teacher. Thus children can, and will, use protestations of guilt at the death of a parent to get attention. Guilt is quite fashionable these days. You just have to watch tv dramas to see the multitude of ways that characters feel guilty for the most absurd of reasons. (TV is teaching people very bad behaviour.))

I might add here that when I was young, my own parents fought constantly, real humdingers. I did not feel that their fighting was my fault. Nor did my siblings. People behaved better in those days. Consequently, people were healthier in those days.
 
You have to define 'lie' When a colleague brings a new baby in the office and all the women are cooing about it being so beautiful, even I wouldn't say , 'well, in reality, it looks like a deformed piglet'.

And yet, what is truth? Maybe they do see it as beautiful.

Rather than cooing about babies when that would be a lie, perhaps one should merely say and do nothing at all.

My line here is that in all likelihood, people who coo over babies may be lying for other reasons e.g. to "show how much they care". Everybody these days has to "show how much they care". Princess Diana started that nonsense. When people have to act up like that to "show how much they care", then it is a sure sign that "they protest too much, methinks" (Hamlet). When people genuinely care, they do not overact. Overacting is a sign of insincerity. (Much of this behaviour is not conscious. People behave the way society has conditioned them to behave. I do not think the lies are always deliberate.)
 
Rather than cooing about babies when that would be a lie, perhaps one should merely say and do nothing at all.

My line here is that in all likelihood, people who coo over babies may be lying for other reasons e.g. to "show how much they care". Everybody these days has to "show how much they care". Princess Diana started that nonsense. When people have to act up like that to "show how much they care", then it is a sure sign that "they protest too much, methinks" (Hamlet). When people genuinely care, they do not overact. Overacting is a sign of insincerity. (Much of this behaviour is not conscious. People behave the way society has conditioned them to behave. I do not think the lies are always deliberate.)
Sorry, I don't care. At least, not a lot. I've been a loner all my life. but I am not enough a bastard to piss people off just because of the sake of it.

My wife of 25 years - equally someone whose trust in others had been destroyed by previous abuse - should be understood This because she was equally of the persona who had been seriously damaged by previous relationships with abusive bastards. She came to me because she thought I could protect her. Which I did. But I could not protect her against cancer so she is gone. This is not a subject I care to discuss.
 
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