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Live Toads Found Entombed In Solid Substances

A

Anonymous

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I'm a newbie on the Message board, but have been getting FT since the '70s.
My interest for years has been the entombed toad phenomenon, and I'm still on the lookout for any reports from the past.
In recent years there has been a dearth of such tales, but just recently there was a story of a live toad found sealed in a can, and I read on the web an article about a series such tales.
I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on such stories of entombed animals, and to hear of any cases people have come across, especially from the press.
 
Well, one question about teleportation is what would happen if you teleported into solid rock. I imagine this might have something to do with that. Some sort of time-space teleportation explaining finding dinosaurs and such entombed in rocks and lochs.

There is a saharan frog that can hibernate for 9 years. perhaps it has something to do with this. Perhaps other frogs can do the same and are just not using it unless living in a dry place. Imagne if you had a frog hibernating next to a stalagmite. Of course they seem to have been found in solid rock, formed over long periods of time a long time ago.
 
maybe they have been sent back from the future and ended up materialising in rocks and the like. it is cheeper than sending real people back to start with dont you think?

or maybe theres a reasonable explanation for it

cas
 
There have been all kinds of explanations for the reported stories which occur from over 700 years ago up to the 20th Century.
Some earlier authors thought they were evidence of the supernatural or demonic, and certainly there are reports of superstitious beliefs connected with the stories.
Spontanoeus Generation was another popular explanation in earlier ages (that toads, like other creatures and vermin were formed from mud etc.).
The supposed longevity of toads was a favourite theory, more plausible before the Geologists in the 19th Century started extending the age of the earth and rocks from thousands to millions of years.
Some reports are based on misobservation, others are hoaxes and more like "urban legends", but there is enough material, and some interesting experimental evidence that indicates to me that toads (particularly) in the right conditions probably can survive entombment much longer than generally believed.
The whole subject is a fascinating one from the point of view of seeing how the public, and the intellectual/ scientific authorities dealt with the anomalous reports. The references to the phenomenon in literature and poetry are also of interest.
Back in the 1980s Fortean Times produced an "Occasional Paper" on the phenomenon, edited by yours truly "Toad in the Hole". I have always intended on writing more, but have never been able to make the time.....
 
Maybe certain species can go into a state of indefinite suspended animation. Certain plants can do it, can't they - amd microbes?

Carole
 
Isn't the theory that the toad swims into a tiny hole in the rock, and grows inside, feeding off flies attracted to the hole by the toad's odour?
 
Evilsprout said:
Isn't the theory that the toad swims into a tiny hole in the rock, and grows inside, feeding off flies attracted to the hole by the toad's odour?

One of the most plausible explanations for some cases is that young toads can become trapped in cavities in rocks, and subsequently grow too large to escape, with the entrance hole either subsequently becoming sealed off or blocked, or un-noticed by the witness when the stone was broken open, revealing the toad.
A (dead) toad that was found entombed within a flint at the beginning of the last century has been preserved in a UK museum. In this case, a small passage into the hollow flint was subsequently found to have been blocked up by sediment. See a photo at

http://www.whom.co.uk/squelch/um_03.jpg
Link is dead. No archived version found.


- also in Arthur C Clarke's A-Z of Mysteries by Simon Welfare & John Fairley (1993) p. 213.
There are a number of cases of living toads being found allegedly soundly entombed within the trunks of trees, and this circumstance can be explained in a similar way.
 
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Toads entombed in rock

There are numerous accounts of stonemasons, labourers, quarry workers and the like, splitting or breaking open a large piece of stone, whereupon, to the amazement of those present, a toad (or variously, a lizard or other small animal) is found alive (often vigorously so) within a small cavity in the rock. Examination of the rock in question seems to show no aperture or fissure which could have been used by the animal for access.
The implication is that the animal has somehow survived tens, hundreds, thousands or, dare I say it, millions of years within the cavity in the rock.

http://www.unmuseum.org/entombed.htm

I was very close to putting this in the UL section, and I guess it does have UL written all over it. :) Anyway I can't find it on Snopes, and there are after all many accounts of it, not only within rock, but in cavities in trees.
Could it have some basis in truth? I have my doubts, but it's certainly Fortean. Haven't seen it on the board before, but I would guess it may have come up.
There are several possibilities:

(i) All of these accounts, wholly without exception, are either hoaxes or errors of observation

(ii) Some cases are true, but the animals have not really been there that long (certain cases of suspended animation for a few years are perfectly believeable). Examples are e.g. some fish hibernate in mud which dries to rock hard consistency, then when it rains heavily, the fish revives and swims away

(ii) Some cases are true, and the animals really do have the ability to go into suspended animation for dozens or hundreds of years

(iv) The most tantalising idea imho, namely that the rock acts as a kind of "time shield" which means that for the animal in the cavity, time as we understand it does not pass at all, or passes extremely slowly. Alternatively, time "forgets" that the cavity is there, and does not include it in the accounts, so to speak, so that the animal only has to survive for a few days, or no time at all. I guess the way to test this would be to bury a cheap watch in a cavity in a rock, and then come back in a few years and see if it's still ticking.

Anyway your thoughts on this are welcome. Best wishes and merry holidays for those that celebrate it.

Big Bill Robinson
 
Good thread Bill! I love this subject and find it fascinating.

I have a personal experience of finding a OOP toad in a tree cavity, in particular a Scots Pine which I was assisting (more like hindering) with felling.

I was messing around with a billhook and randomly chopping at the trunk which was on the ground, when I noticed that where I had made a cut in the tree something appeared to be moving. I scraped the area with the hook and ripped off some of the bark and found an adult toad which was quite grey in colour (fortunately there was someone there who knew the difference between a frog and toad).

We extricated the toad and it appeared healthy and was also quite damp, it also urinated over a friend's hand.

I have no idea how the toad would have gotten out of the apparently sealed cavity if we had not cut the tree down and I had not decided to act stupid with a billhook. Fortunately for me too, my friend was standing by me and also witnessed the whole finding of the toad.

Prior to the tree being felled, the part where I found the toad would have been approx. 6-7ft from the ground. There was also no streams, ponds or areas of standing water in the nearest vicinity.

We hypothesised at the time that possibly a bird had carried a tadpole on it's feet, body or possibly fecal matter, had landed on the tree and the tadpole had fallen into a crevice in the bark. There may have been enough moisture and insect life in the cavity for the young toad in which to grow.

IIRC I remember reading that young toads will seek shelter in rocks or tree cavities when they have emerged from their tadpole state. I also remember reading about a mummified toad or frog that was found apparently entombed with no explanantion upon how it got there and hailed as an usual phenomenon until it was discovered that there was a tiny hole in the rock which had silted up after the animal had been mummified. There have been also been experiments in which scientists have entombed living frogs/toads to see how long they can survive in rock, which if I recall did not appear to provide any answers only that they were all dead when they were opened up again a few years later.
 
Some interesting stories here, if you can believe them.
Link is dead. No archived version found.
 
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IIRC, Charles Dawson -he of Piltdown Man hoax infamy- allegedly had a node of rock that had allegedly been dug out of a mine and which allegedly contained an allegedly living frog. Are there any earlier references to toads and frogs being found inside rock?
 
I love Google, me!

Trying to find the reference for the scientific experiment re: Toads and entombing, I've found this webpage article-

http://members.tripod.com/La_Mandragore/articles_toad.htm

The oldest case is quoted in a chronicle by Robert of Thorigny (1145). A living toad was found enclosed in a stone of the ramparts, at Le Mans: From the moment it was killed, its congeners began to pullulate along the town walls as never before.

The article also states that it was a William Buckland, a professor of Geology at Oxford University in the 19thC, who took 24 toads and entombed them in varying types of rock or 'cells' and also concluded;
"...Toads cannot live a year excluded totally from atmospheric air (...); it seems also probable that they cannot survive two years entirely excluded from food;"
 
"...Toads cannot live a year excluded totally from atmospheric air (...); it seems also probable that they cannot survive two years entirely excluded from food;"

Bet they could if their name was David Blaine.:D
 
Re: I love Google, me!

Quixote said:
The article also states that it was a William Buckland, a professor of Geology at Oxford University in the 19thC, who took 24 toads and entombed them in varying types of rock or 'cells' and also concluded;

Given Buckland's reputation for sampling any animal he came across, the frogs can count themselves lucky they didn't get eaten.
 
Toads in the hole

Mark Pilkington
Thursday January 20, 2005
The Guardian

Among the wonders on display at London's 1862 Great Exhibition was a lump of coal dug from a seam 300ft below Newport, Monmouthshire. With it was a frog that miners claimed to have found alive, encased in a lump of coal presumably millions of years old.

Their claim enraged the naturalist Frank Buckland, who demanded in the Times that the frog be removed from display. As a result, Professor Richard Owen, then superintendent of the British Museum's natural history department, received so many specimens of toads and frogs found in rocks that he appointed his wife to deal with them.

Written records of animals, predominantly amphibians, found encased in solid rock date back to at least the 16th century. The usual story is that workmen digging in a quarry or mine find the creatures inhabiting a cavity roughly their own size. Whether they fell down a crack which was then sealed over, were dropped, flowed or blown there as frogspawn, as was once thought, or even placed into the cracks by humans is anyone's guess. Of course, in some cases, their discoverers may have made a leap of judgment on finding the creatures hopping around as they struck a particular stone. More recent reports describe creatures living in concrete.

Several experimental investigations have been carried out. In 1771, the French naturalist Louis-Theodore Herissant entombed three toads in plaster cells, themselves encased in wood. Two were alive three years later. In 1825, the Oxford geologist William Buckland found that several toads he had encased in limestone were still living a year later. Biology would support these two examples - the Sonoran Desert Toad, Bufo alvarius, for example, can spend years hibernating in dry ground. Though this hardly explains cases like that which so enraged Buckland.

Animals have also been found in trees. In his Natural History of Shelbourne (1789), Gilbert White describes a shrew found in this way. These were usually the work of farmhands who placed them in tree holes as sacrifices, sealing them in with a peg of the same wood, which then grew over. Such trees would then be considered healing sites.

Those still curious about this mystery can inspect a mummified toad, found inside a flint nodule in a Lewes quarry in about 1900, on display at Brighton's Booth Museum.

SOURCE: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2005/jan/20/science.highereducation1
 
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I've seen quite a few stories about this -- including a highly unlikely pteradactyl -- but not much in the way of evidence. At least one said it left a cast of the frog behind, though that might have been in coal. I wonder if that's around somewhere. Very strange, but interesting.
 
Thanks - somehow I didn't manage to find this thread when I did a search yesterday... :oops:
 
One of my earliest Fortean interests but I can't find any examples of toad-in-the-holes more modern than 1928 in Texas.
"Only one specimen survived until today, hosted in the Booth Museum of Natural History in Brighton. However this "genuine" toad-in-the-hole was donated to the museum by amateur naturalist Charles Dawson in 1901 ... so take that with a big grain of salt".

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidb...ange-history-of-the-myth-of-entombed-animals/

Does anyone here live near Brighton ? I think the museum re-opens on 31st July and I was wondering if the stone toad was still there.
 
... "Only one specimen survived until today, hosted in the Booth Museum of Natural History in Brighton. However this "genuine" toad-in-the-hole was donated to the museum by amateur naturalist Charles Dawson in 1901 ... so take that with a big grain of salt". ...
Does anyone here live near Brighton ? I think the museum re-opens on 31st July and I was wondering if the stone toad was still there.
Here is a photo of the Charles Dawson "toad in a hole" exhibited at the Booth Museum.

Toad_in_a_hole_-_Booth_Museum_Brighton-1.jpg

SOURCE: The Wikipedia article on Entombed Animals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entombed_animal

The image is accessible in multiple sizes at Wikimedia Commons:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toad_in_a_hole_-_Booth_Museum_Brighton.jpg
 
Trying to find the reference for the scientific experiment re: Toads and entombing, I've found this webpage article-
http://members.tripod.com/La_Mandragore/articles_toad.htm
It is somewhat remarkable that a 2003 article posted on Tripod is still accessible at its original URL today.

This article reviews the history of entombed animals claims, with reference to sources not often cited in the most commonly encountered reviews. The article moves on from stories about animals (particularly toads) entombed in stones to similar surprising animals discovered enclosed in (e.g.) cans of beans.

Here is the first portion of the article, which focused on the earlier stories of animals entombed in stone.


FROM THE ENTOMBED BUFO TO THE CANNED FROG :
IMPOSSIBLE FOSSILS AND CONTAMINATED FRENCH BEANS


By Jean Loïc LE QUELLEC

Widely distributed is the "Entombed Toad" motif, according to which toads could stay for months, years, centuries, millenia or even more, living without air, water or food, totally enclosed in compact blocks of marble, coal, concrete, sandstone or limestone, and crouching patiently until one day a hammer stroke liberates them. According to those stories, when a miner, a quarryman, a stone cutter or an archaeologist splits the lump, the batrachian blinks at the unaccustomed daylight, and hops placidly away. Sometimes, it can only survive but some hours or days after it is released .

The oldest case is quoted in a chronicle by Robert of Thorigny (1145). A living toad was found enclosed in a stone of the ramparts, at Le Mans : from the moment it was killed, its congeners began to pullulate along the town walls as never before . In 1198, William of Newburgh refers to a similar occurrence (Historia Anglia, Book 1, ch. 28). The allusions began to increase during the sixteenth century, as in the works of Simon Majol (Dies caniculares), G. Agricola (De Animalibus subterraneis), J. Cardan (De rerum veritate), U. Aldrovandus (De reliques animalibus exanguibus) and even Ambroise Paré, who relates how a large living toad was found in a big stone, in his vineyard of Meudon, before 1575 .

This belief is still alive ; connected with the medicinal properties attributed to that animal (which is supposed to suck the corrupted wind), it explains some observances in general use in the farms, and illustrated by the following narration of a young agriculturist, collected in 1989 :
"... that man used to put a toad in a flower pot, you know. He used to place it at a stable window, to cure a disease. I don't know what kind of disease it was (...) and... well, he told me that he forgot to remove the toad, and the toad stayed for goodness knows how long, may be one year, something like that, and it was as thin as a rake, you know... but it was still alive" .
An older variant of that apotropaic practice consisted in burying the toad in a flower pot under the stable threshold to protect the cattle. The occurrences mentioning such batrachians hermetically enclosed and subsisting on soil for years are a good many .

Living toads found in solid substances (rocks, trunk of trees) were periodically recorded by erudite scholars in the "Mémoires de l'Académie des Sciences" and in various scientific publications, during the seventeenth eighteenth centuries. Bob Skinner recently counted more that three hundred cases . During the nineteenth century, several scientists like A.M.C. Duméril , J.N. Vallot , or Frank and William Buckland , carried out very serious experiments to investigate that alleged phenomenon. For example, the last named, who was the first professor of Geology at Oxford University, prepared twenty four circular cells having a groove at their upper margin fitted to receive a plate of glass. Twelve were made of coarse oolithic limestone, and twelve were made in a block of compact siliceous sandstone. Dr Buckland took twenty four toads, both large and small, and placed one of each type in each of the above mentioned cells. "The large and small animals being distributed in equal proportion between the limestone and sandstone cells", before burying all the blocks under three feet of earth. Thirteen months later, the toads were examined. Every batrachian in the smaller cells was dead, "the greatest number of those in the large cells of porous limestone were alive", but there was some aperture in the cells, or cracks in the glass cover. Finally, all the animals died within two years, and the author came to the following conclusion :
"From the fatal result in the experiments (...), it seems to follow that Toads cannot live a year excluded totally from atmospheric air (...) ; it seems also probable that they cannot survive two years entirely excluded from food ; we may therefore conclude that there is a want of sufficiently minute and accurate observation in those so frequently recorded cases, where Toads are said to be found alive within blocks of stone and wood, in cavities that had no communication whatever with the external air (...). No examination is ever made until the reptile is first discovered by the breaking of the mass in which it was contained, and then it is too late to ascertain, without carefully replacing every fragment (and in no case that I have seen reported has this ever been done) whether or not there was any hole or crevice by which the animal may have entered the cavity from which it was extracted (...). The attention of the discoverer is always directed more to the Toad than to the minutiae of the state of the cavity in which it was contained."
By that statement, the scientific world learnt that toads are destined to die, and cannot survive eternally either in the stones found by miners or paleontologists or... in the canned French beans. Finally, the story told by the announcer of "Europe nû 1" demonstrates how some beliefs, corresponding to old world views, are harder to kill than any batrachian.

In 1856, a priest called Adolphe de Chesnel, in his famous "Dictionnaire des Superstitions", passed the following remarks about the latest entombed toad cases : "It is true that, in the present state of our knowledge, it is difficult to explain that irregular fact which is inconsistent with the laws laid down by the physical studies : but the Great Arbitrator of everything does not bind Himself to follow the professors'wanderings" .

Nevertheless, during the last century, a good many authors tried to solve rationally the problem of the "embedded reptiles", and it is interesting to consider their responses or explanations of the legend. For example, when the "Société Linnéenne de Paris" started in 1824 a competition around this difficult question, J.N. Vallot suggested that the term "crapaud" (toad) was used by the quarrymen and masons for a cavity in rock, and the expression "crapaud vivant" (living toad) for a geode lined with crystals. Illustrating the term "crapaud" (toad), Littré gives the meaning of : "coarse stone found in marble". For Bergen Evans, "The toad's clammy, corpselike feeling with its suggestion that it is already dead and hence no subject to mortality, may be the basis for many stories that one hears of a toad's being liberated from the centre of a block of stone or concrete in which he had obviously lived for years, or even centuries, without nourishment or air" .

More recently, M. Skinner proposed "an alternative explanation" : "There is a high rate of calcareous deposition in some limestone districts, as is demonstrated at the sites where objects suspended in dripping water become coated in a layer of stony deposition (...). A good proportion of entombed toad cases occurs in limestone areas, and this hypothesis may be valid in some of them although it has not been conclusively shown for how long such a toad could survive" . In 1985, the same author wrote that "The "toad in a hole", Sea serpent and giant Gooseberry were all classed together in the minds of some authors as the kind of stories now known as "Silly Season" tales. It is interesting to conjecture what their modern counterparts might be" .

It is noteworthy that the "entombed toads" are not regularly mentioned in the literature. Very rare in the mediaeval texts, they increased during the fifteenth sixteenth centuries, the highest rate being observed during the eighteenth and principally the nineteenth centuries. It's also during the last century that the studies, reports and experiments concerning the "impossible fossil" flourished. Later, the authors became more and more sceptic, humorous, and even frankly bantering. Obviously, it was no longer important to know if the story was true or not, for it was used by the journalists as an amusing way to fill in a space. For example, the "Glacial toad" or "Bufo compactilis" supposedly found near Frederick (Oklahoma) in "the same clay strata which has yielded relics of the Pleistocene or glacial age, of approximatively 300.000 years ago", was mentioned in the New York Times under date of April, 1rst, 1928.

For some decades, the "toad in the hole" has been ignored by the media. Since the quarrymen stopped working by hand, nobody cares about the toads well known by their predecessors (a "toad" being a real batrachian or some nodule or geode in a stone). Simultaneously, the development of geology and paleontology overthrew our Weltanschauung. Before the first third of the nineteenth century, it was still conceivable to find a living toad contemporaneous with the stone in which it was sleeping. On the one hand these animals could hibernate and fast for long periods ; on the other hand, the earth was supposed to be only created some thousand years ago. In the eighteenth century, the scholars calculated that the world was forty or sixty hundred years old, possibly seventy five according to the most audacious of them. It was only in the years 1860 1870 that a true notion of prehistoric men and civilizations was formed . As the chronologies grew longer and longer, the possibility for a toad to be entombed in a geological formation and to survive up to the present times appeared to be more and more incredible. Such a phenomenon is now as unlikely as the finding of a radio set in a solutrean layer. ...


FULL ESSAY: https://members.tripod.com/La_Mandragore/articles_toad.htm
 
Here is the bibliography from the Le Quellec article (on Tripod), posted for archival purposes.
Bibliography

AELIANUS (C.). Claudii Aeliani ; De Natura Animalium, Libri XVII, ex recognitione Rudolphi Hercheri. Lipsiae, in Aedibus B.G. Teubneri, MDCCCLXIV.

BERLIOZ (J.) 1990. L'homme au crapaud. Genèse d'un exemplum médiéval ; Tradition et Histoire dans la culture populaire. Rencontre autour de l'oeuvre de Jean Michel Guilcher, Grenoble, Centre Alpin et Rhodanien d'Ethnologie 11:169-203.

BOURRILLY (J.), 1913. Enquête ethnographique dans le Bas Languedoc ; Le Folk Lore dans le Gard et les Bouches du Rhône. Société d'Etudes des Sciences Naturelles de Nîmes, séance du 13 juin 1913.

BRODU (J. L.), 1983. Petite sélection des sources françaises de Charles Fort. Paris, Fondation pour l'Analyse et la Diffusion des Anomalies / Pogonip.

BUCKLAND (W.), 1831. On the vitality of Toads enclosed in stones and wood. Zoological Magazine 5:314 320.

BUCKLAND (F.T.), 1862. Experiments with Toads. The Field 20:594.

BUREAU (L.), 1877. Superstitions diverses concernant les animaux. Mélusine 23:555.

CHESNEL (A. de), 1856. Dictionnaire des Superstitions, erreurs, préjugés et traditions populaires, où sont exposées les croyances supertitieuses des temps anciens et modernes répandues surtout dans les populations agricoles, pastorales et maritimes. Paris, Migne.

CHOMEL (N.), 1718. Dictionnaire oeconomique contenant divers moyens d'augmenter son bien et de conserver sa santé, avec plusieurs remedes assurez et éprouvez, pour un très grand nombre de maladies, & de beaux secrets pour parvenir à une longue et heureuse vieillesse. Lyon, L. Bruyset, 2 vol.

DALE (R.), 1978. The Tumour in the Whale, a Collection of Modern Myths. London, Duckworth.

DOMOWITZ (S.), 1979. Foreign Matter in Food : a Legend Type. Indiana Folklore 12:86-95.

DUMERIL (A.M.C.), 1860. Note relative aux pluies de crapauds et aux crapauds trouvés vivants dans des cavités closes. C.R. de l'Académie des Sciences et Arts 50:973-975. Rapport sur un crapaud trouvé vivant dans la cavité d'un gros silex où il paraît avoir séjourné pendant longtemps. id. 33:103-114.

G***, 1827. Memoir on living animals found in solid bodies. American Journal of Science XII:395-396.

LAMING EMPERAIRE (A.), 1964. Origines de l'archéologie préhistorique en France. Paris, Picard.

LE QUELLEC (L. L.), 1991. Liqueur de singe et alcool de vipère, plus quelques autres recettes. Niort, Geste Editions.

MICHELL (J.) & RICKARD (R.), 1980. Anthologie des phénomènes bizarres, étranges et inexpliqués. Paris, Belfond.

MOLSDORF (W.), 1984. Christliche Symbolik der Mittelalterlichen Kunst. Graz, Akademische Druck u. Verlagsanstalt.

MULLEN (P.), 1971. Modern Legend and Rumor Theory. Journal of the Folklore Institute IX:101.

PARE (A.), 1614. Les Oevvres d'Ambroise Paré, Conseiler et premier Chirvrgien dv Roy. Corrigees et avgmentees par luy mesme peu au parauant son decés. Paris, Nicolas Bvon.

ROLLAND (E.) 1967. Faune Populaire de la France. Paris, Maisonneuve et Larose, XIII vol.

ROUX (A.) & A. HUGUES, 1914. Folk Lore dou Parage d'Uzès, Prumièiro Serio. Uzès, Malige.

SKINNER (M.), 1985. Toad in the Hole. Fortean Times Occasional paper, 2.

THOMAS (E.), 1831. On frogs and toads in stone and solid earth. American Journal of Science XIX(1):167 170.

TUBACH (F. C.), 1969. Index Exemplorum. A Handbook of Medieval Religious Tales. Helsinki, Suomalainen Tiedakademia, Akademia Scientarum Fennica, FF Communications LXXXVI(204).

VALLOT (J.N.), 1834. Lettre sur la vitalité des crapauds enfermés dans des corps solides. Bibliothèque Universelle des Sciences 55:69 77. Sur la prétendue vitalité des crapauds renfermés dans des corps solides ; id. 56:251-266.
SOURCE: https://members.tripod.com/La_Mandragore/articles_toad.htm
 
Has no-one else pointed out the obvious here?

- That a miner, convict, geologist, prospector, gardener etc. splits open a geode or similar chunk of rock, whilst a hitherto unseen toad hops past and the excitable guy puts 2 and 2 together to make 5?
So what would you say was the average IQ of a geologist ?
 
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