Lost Cities

gerhard1

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#1
What lost cities does anyone here believe in? There are several that I wonder about, and that I would put in the 'un-proven' category, some that are merely doubtful and some that are total hogwash.

In the first category, I would put 'Z', the city sought by British explorer, Percy Fawcett. There are several reports of lost cities in the Amazon region, and it strikes me as a distinct possibility that they might very well exist.

Here is a link to a story about a Portuguese expedition from the 1740's that was said to have come across such a city.

http://www.phfawcettsweb.org/portu.htm#1

Fawcett discovered this report and it induced him to seek the city that he called 'Z', and was preparing to look for when World War One intervened, and he was delayed for several years, finally getting underway in 1925 and later that year, he disappeared.

Some doubt that 'Z' exists at all, and to be honest, there is little evidence to support it beyond the linked report.

Akakor, (or Akator) is a city that I'd put in the 'hogwash' column, as the only evidence favoring it, is from a German writer named Karl Brugger, who was murdered in 1984. This is the city mentioned in the Indiana Jones film, BTW. The late Phil Coppens did a good job debunking this story and it is on his website. Here is a link.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/akahim.html

There are others, such as the City of the Caesars allegedly in Patagonia; Burrungu, in either Western Australia or the Northern Territory; Paitite in either Peru or Ecuador; the city allegedly found in the Kalahari in southern Africa; Iram of the Pillars in the Empty Quarter in Oman or Sa'udi Arabia. There are even reports of unknown cities in the interior of Alaska, although I'd tend to put these either in the doubtful or hogwash categories.

What are others?
 

GNC

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#4
There's a film about Z out soon, be interesting to see what conclusions it draws.
 

EnolaGaia

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#5
What lost cities does anyone here believe in? There are several that I wonder about, and that I would put in the 'un-proven' category, some that are merely doubtful and some that are total hogwash.

In the first category, I would put 'Z', the city sought by British explorer, Percy Fawcett. There are several reports of lost cities in the Amazon region, and it strikes me as a distinct possibility that they might very well exist. ...
Regarding the various lost city legends from the Amazon region ... For a long time I tended to discount such legends as more likely apocryphal than similar legends from other regions. In the last couple of decades, however, it's become apparent there were numerous Pre-Columbian 'cities' in the Amazon basin, complete with sizable earthworks. The evidence had been hidden in the jungle landscape until (a) farming-motivated deforestation and / or (b) sophisticated satellite-based scanning revealed their remanent landforms.

As a result, I've recalibrated my thinking to accommodate the fact there were previously-unrecognized large-scale settlements to which (or at least to whose ruins ... ) the legends almost certainly referred.

At this point, very little is known about these newly-recognized ancient societies. We may never know much about them, insofar as the region's environment offered little stone for construction and conditions well-suited for rapid deterioration of whatever structures (etc.) such societies created.

I won't yet go so far as to claim there were Pre-Columbian civilizations as sophisticated as (e.g.) the Mayans, but at least I can finally see how the legends arose.
 

chicorea

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#10
Well, I think it's fair that I issue a Spoiler Alert: if you never read David Gann's book or want to watch the film, please skip the next lines and don't spoil your pleasure in reading/watching"The Lost City Of Z".
This said, I find it interesting that while Gann's book present the Amazonian earthworks and its significance as the climax of the story, in Chales Mann's book (1491), they are there since the introduction, as a sign of the fact that we know very few about the life and the people of the Americas before 1492.
By the way, there is a Brazilian book, "Fawcett", written by Hermes Leal, that casts its own conclusions about Z, Fawcett and the lost cities in the jungle. It's far from the attractive style of Gann's book but it presents a counterpoint to his conclusions.
Just a last comment: back in the XVIIIth century it would be unlikely that a Portuguese expedition reaches Mato Grosso. If the document 502 is credible, it would be the "sertao" of Bahia, next the Goias border. By the time the story is suppose to happen this area would still be Spanish territory (Tordesillas, the Borgias, you know...).
 

Draheste

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#12
I love Atlantis, even if I think it is all hogwash invented by a clever Plato. I like to think, though, that around 13 000 years ago, there was somewhere in the Canary Island, a city and a country as advanced as Minoan crete and lost under the waves, after the great melting. Their surviving descendants could have been responsible for erecting Stonehenge, Avebury, Carnac and all the megaliths. I know, a bit John Mitchell and 'Realisme Fantastique', but I like stories, especially of that kind.
 

EnolaGaia

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#14
The city allegedly found in the Kalahari might be a natural formation. I believe t is too soon to say for certain, however. ...
Above and beyond the failure to locate any archeological ruins matching Farini's claims - which weren't consistent between his writings and his post-expedition lectures - the natural formation(s) theory emerged from the analysis and follow-up trek of one A. J. Clement in 1964.

Clament's essay on his conclusions (Farini's "Lost City" of the Kalahari: The Probable Solution) can be accessed in PDF format at:

http://journals.co.za/docserver/ful...est&checksum=C1DD7EC6393DFDB91CAFAAED2957228D
 

blessmycottonsocks

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#15
Just watched the Expedition Unknown episode about the Kalahari lost city.
Reasonably convincing evidence for a largish abandoned settlement - extensive stone walls, enclosures and artwork, in the southern Kalahari. Spotting the same landmarks as in Farini's photos seems pretty compelling.
 

gerhard1

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#16
There are reports of some ancient ruins having been found in Death Valley, California. However, no geographic coordinates were given. I looked for them on Google maps, but found nothing. With no geographic coordinates and no directions such ruins are exceedingly hard to find.

I intend to keep looking, as I find the subject interesting.
 

gerhard1

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#17
There are reports of some ancient ruins having been found in Death Valley, California. However, no geographic coordinates were given. I looked for them on Google maps, but found nothing. With no geographic coordinates and no directions such ruins are exceedingly hard to find.

I intend to keep looking, as I find the subject interesting.
There are several youtube videos on this and there are also a number of on-line articles on it like this one.

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ca-deathvalleyundergroundcity.html
 

gerhard1

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#18
Just watched the Expedition Unknown episode about the Kalahari lost city.
Reasonably convincing evidence for a largish abandoned settlement - extensive stone walls, enclosures and artwork, in the southern Kalahari. Spotting the same landmarks as in Farini's photos seems pretty compelling.
Here is the youtube video.

 

blessmycottonsocks

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#21
Yes. My first hit was on that crappy, mirror-image upload. I noticed it was wrong when his steering wheel was on the left. There are a few others the correct way around. You may still have to zoom and crop to get a decent image though.
 

gerhard1

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#22
Yes. My first hit was on that crappy, mirror-image upload. I noticed it was wrong when his steering wheel was on the left. There are a few others the correct way around. You may still have to zoom and crop to get a decent image though.
Good point. I have to keep in mind that many if not most of you are in the UK.
 

XBergMann

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#23
I love Atlantis, even if I think it is all hogwash invented by a clever Plato. I like to think, though, that around 13 000 years ago, there was somewhere in the Canary Island, a city and a country as advanced as Minoan crete and lost under the waves, after the great melting. Their surviving descendants could have been responsible for erecting Stonehenge, Avebury, Carnac and all the megaliths. I know, a bit John Mitchell and 'Realisme Fantastique', but I like stories, especially of that kind.
Graham Hancock's various books on us being a species with amnesia are worth a read in that case, especially Fingerprints of the Gods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprints_of_the_Gods
 

gerhard1

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#24
What lost cities does anyone here believe in? There are several that I wonder about, and that I would put in the 'un-proven' category, some that are merely doubtful and some that are total hogwash.

In the first category, I would put 'Z', the city sought by British explorer, Percy Fawcett. There are several reports of lost cities in the Amazon region, and it strikes me as a distinct possibility that they might very well exist.

Here is a link to a story about a Portuguese expedition from the 1740's that was said to have come across such a city.

http://www.phfawcettsweb.org/portu.htm#1

Fawcett discovered this report and it induced him to seek the city that he called 'Z', and was preparing to look for when World War One intervened, and he was delayed for several years, finally getting underway in 1925 and later that year, he disappeared.

Some doubt that 'Z' exists at all, and to be honest, there is little evidence to support it beyond the linked report.

Akakor, (or Akator) is a city that I'd put in the 'hogwash' column, as the only evidence favoring it, is from a German writer named Karl Brugger, who was murdered in 1984. This is the city mentioned in the Indiana Jones film, BTW. The late Phil Coppens did a good job debunking this story and it is on his website. Here is a link.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/akahim.html

There are others, such as the City of the Caesars allegedly in Patagonia; Burrungu, in either Western Australia or the Northern Territory; Paitite in either Peru or Ecuador; the city allegedly found in the Kalahari in southern Africa; Iram of the Pillars in the Empty Quarter in Oman or Sa'udi Arabia. There are even reports of unknown cities in the interior of Alaska, although I'd tend to put these either in the doubtful or hogwash categories.

What are others?
Concerning the Alaska city, mentioned in the OP, here is its' story:

The story was that during the 1880's a prospector and some companions, some Native and some White, went by steam launch up the Yukon River for several days and then went north via a branch of the Yukon. After several weeks of hard traveling, they came across a waterfall that took them three days to get around and then they continued north and made camp for the winter.

One day the prospector was about to go stir-crazy and he decided to do some exploring. Taking one of his native companions with him, he went north for a couple of days, and when he reached the top of a ridge, he looked down in valley on the opposite side and saw several miles away a city. He and his native friend went down and looked around. It was covered with ice and breaking some of the ice away with his axe, he discovered that it was apparently made of wood that had attained a stone-like texture.

There are a number of problems with the story. One is that this was the era of 'hoax' journalism. It could very well just be a yarn made up either to fill space or to sell newspapers, by either the prospector, the newspaper, or both. The second problem is that even given the story being true, the location is extremely vague. We don't know which branch of the Yukon (which runs clear across Alaska) is the one that they went up. We don't know what water fall they by-passed either. If we knew either of these things, it would help a great deal in locating it. The Yukon runs for at least 1000 miles in Alaska alone and has numerous tributaries that empty into it from the north.

Yet another problem is that I am not aware of any native folklore about this city. But I'm not that familiar with native folklore, so the fact that I am not aware of any means essentially nothing.

This, then is the story. It comes, in case anyone wants to read it for themselves, from a book called Strange Stories of Alaska and the Yukon by one Ed Ferrell.
 
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Draheste

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#25
Graham Hancock's various books on us being a species with amnesia are worth a read in that case, especially Fingerprints of the Gods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprints_of_the_Gods
I always ment to read those books, for their entertainment value.
I watched the 'documentaries' Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization,and enjoyed it, suspending my inbuilt fortean scepticism for an hour each week. I didn' really like when he was doubting that the Mayans could have built their monuments unaided. I felt there was a whiff of racism, somewhere.
 

Draheste

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#26
Concerning the Alaska city, mentioned in the OP, here is its' story:

The story was that during the 1880's a prospector and some companions, some Native and some White, went by steam launch up the Yukon River for several days and then went north via a branch of the Yukon. After several weeks of hard traveling, they came across a waterfall that took them three days to get around and then they continued north and made camp for the winter.

One day the prospector was about to go stir-crazy and he decided to do some exploring. Taking one of his native companions with him, he went north for a couple of days, and when he reached the top of a ridge, he looked down in valley on the opposite side and saw several miles away a city. He and his native friend went down and looked around. It was covered with ice and breaking some of the ice away with his axe, he discovered that it was apparently made of wood that had attained a stone-like texture.

There are a number of problems with the story. One is that this was the era of 'hoax' journalism. It could very well just be a yarn made up either to fill space or to sell newspapers, by either the prospector, the newspaper, or both. The second problem is that even given the story being true, the location is extremely vague. We don't know which branch of the Yukon (which runs clear across Alaska) is the one that they went up. We don't what water fall they by-passed either. If we knew either of these things, it would help a great deal in locating it. The Yukon runs for at least 1000 miles in Alaska alone and has numerous tributaries that empty into it from the north.

Yet another problem is that I am not aware of any native folklore about this city. But I'm not that familiar with native folklore, so the fact that I am not aware of any means essentially nothing.

This, then is the story. It comes, in case anyone wants to read it for themselves, from a book called Strange Stories of Alaska and the Yukon by one Ed Ferrell.
Could that story have inspired HP Lovecraft, who was an avid reader, when he wrote at the Mountains of Madness?
 

AgProv

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#27
I'm wondering what exciteable people might have made of Dunwich - if we didn't have solid historical and architectural evidence allowing us to piece the story together.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-35549952

Just off the coast of East Anglia is a "lost city", now underwater, that was big enough to have sustained four churches. all the ingredients are there: long decline of what was once the tenth largest town in England, and several nights of storms resulting in its being wiped off the map in almost its entirety. To compare, the tenth largest town in England today is Swindon. Imagine a catastrophe that were to wipe Swindon off the map of Britain in less than a week. That would leave an imprint on the collective consciousness, I suspect! (And on Wiltshire).
 

XBergMann

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#28
I always ment to read those books, for their entertainment value.
I watched the 'documentaries' Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization,and enjoyed it, suspending my inbuilt fortean scepticism for an hour each week. I didn' really like when he was doubting that the Mayans could have built their monuments unaided. I felt there was a whiff of racism, somewhere.
He does make a very good case for his theories, I too, started reading it on a crackpot theory information background kick but ended up largely in agreement with GD's theories.

Some of his lectures which can be found on youtube and run on for several hours are also worth watching, there is even one on his Fingerprints of the Gods work which can be viewed here
 

gerhard1

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#30
Could that story have inspired HP Lovecraft, who was an avid reader, when he wrote at the Mountains of Madness?
It is an interesting theory, but according to the wiki article on ATMOM, Lovecraft was more likely to have been influenced by Poe's Arthur Gordon Pym.

Lovecraft had a lifelong interest in Antarctic exploration. "Lovecraft had been fascinated with the Antarctic continent since he was at least 12 years old, when he had written several small treatises on early Antarctic explorers," biographer S. T. Joshi wrote.[6] At about the age of 9, inspired by W. Clark Russell's 1887 book The Frozen Pirate, Lovecraft had written "several yarns" set in Antarctica.[7]

By the 1920s, Antarctica was "one of the last unexplored regions of the Earth, where large stretches of territory had never seen the tread of human feet. Contemporary maps of the continent show a number of provocative blanks, and Lovecraft could exercise his imagination in filling them in...with little fear of immediate contradiction."[8]

The first expedition of Richard E. Byrd took place in 1928-1930, the period just before the novella was written, and Lovecraft mentioned the explorer repeatedly in his letters, remarking at one point on "geologists of the Byrd expedition having found many fossils indicating a tropical past".[9] In fact, Miskatonic University's expedition was modelled after that of Byrd.[10]

In Lovecraft: A Look Behind the Cthulhu Mythos Lin Carter suggests that one inspiration for At the Mountains of Madness was Lovecraft's own hypersensitivity to cold, as evidenced by an incident where the writer "collapsed in the street and was carried unconscious into a drug store" because the temperature dropped from 60 degrees to 30 degrees Fahrenheit (15 degrees to -1 degree Celsius). "The loathing and horror that extreme cold evoked in him was carried over into his writing," Carter wrote, "and the pages of Madness convey the blighting, blasting, stifling sensation caused by sub-zero temperatures in a way that even Poe could not suggest."[11] S.T. Joshi has called this theory "facile."[12]

Joshi further cites as Lovecraft's most obvious literary source for At the Mountains of Madness Edgar Allan Poe's only novel, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket, whose concluding section is set in Antarctica. Lovecraft twice cites Poe's "disturbing and enigmatic" story in his text, and explicitly borrows the mysterious cryTekeli-li from Poe's work. In a letter to August Derleth, Lovecraft wrote that he was trying to achieve with his ending an effect similar to what Poe accomplished in Pym.[13]

Another proposed inspiration for At the Mountains of Madness is Edgar Rice Burroughs'At the Earth's Core (1914), a novel that posits a highly intelligent reptilian race, the Mahar, living in a hollow Earth. "Consider the similarity of Burroughs' Mahar to Lovecraft's Old Ones, both of whom are presented sympathetically despite their ill-treatment of man," writes critic William Fulwiler. "Both are winged, web-footed, dominant races; both are scientific scholarly races with a talent for genetics, engineering, and architecture; and both races use men as cattle." Both stories, Fulwiler points out, involve radical new drilling techniques; in both stories, humans are vivisected by nonhuman scientists. Burroughs' Mahar even employ a species of servants known as Sagoths, possibly the source of Lovecraft's Shoggoth.[14]

Other possible sources include A. Merritt's "The People of the Pit", whose description of an underground city in the Yukon bears some resemblance to that of Lovecraft's Elder Things, and Katharine Metcalf Roof's "A Million Years After", a story about dinosaurshatching from eggs millions of years old that appeared in the November 1930 editionWeird Tales.[15] In a letter to Frank Belknap Long, Lovecraft declared Metcalf Roof's story to be a "rotten", "cheap", and "puerile" version of an idea he had come up with years earlier, and his dissatisfaction may have provoked him to write his own tale of "the awakening of entities from the dim reaches of Earth's history."[16]

An H.P. Lovecraft Encyclopedia suggest that the long scope of history recounted in the story may have been inspired by Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West. Some details of the story may also have been taken from M. P. Shiel's 1901 Arctic exploration novel, The Purple Cloud, which was republished in 1930.[17]

The title is derived from a line in Lord Dunsany's short story "The Hashish Man": "And we came at last to those ivory hills that are named the Mountains of Madness...".

Lovecraft's own "The Nameless City" (1921), which also deals with the exploration of an ancient underground city apparently abandoned by its nonhuman builders, sets a precedent for At the Mountains of Madness. In both stories, the explorers use the nonhumans' artwork to deduce the history of their species.[18] Lovecraft had also used this device in "The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath" (1927)

As for details of the Antarctic setting, the author's description of some of the scenery is in part inspired by the Asian paintings of Nicholas Roerich, and the illustrations ofGustave Doré, both of whom are referenced by the story's narrator multiple times.
Please note the portion that I highlighted, as that could seem to favor your idea.
 
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