Lost Cities

AgProv

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#31
Are you sure that's the best example? :)
good point. I've got nothing against Swindon and it's probably an OK place, but it just stands tenth on the list of biggest towns and cities in Britain and a useful comparative to 13th century Dunwich, which got wiped off the map very abruptly.

Milton Keynes, on the other hand. Or Warrington.
 

Draheste

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#32
It is an interesting theory, but according to the wiki article on ATMOM, Lovecraft was more likely to have been influenced by Poe's Arthur Gordon Pym.
Poe was his greatest inspiration. Also, HPL had a deep dislike of the cold and everything related to fish, hence, one of my favourite of him and really scary 'The Shadow over Innsmouth.' featuring generations of people turning slowly into fishlike creatures and returning to the sea.
 

gerhard1

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#33
Poe was his greatest inspiration. Also, HPL had a deep dislike of the cold and everything related to fish, hence, one of my favourite of him and really scary 'The Shadow over Innsmouth.' featuring generations of people turning slowly into fishlike creatures and returning to the sea.
I've read TSOI and it is an intriguing story. I have the Barnes & Noble hardcover complete Lovecraft, BTW. However, I fear that we are getting somewhat sidetracked.

Has anyone here ever heard of the city in either the Northern Territory or WA, called Burrungu? It is supposedly (very supposedly!) a city with long white columns Most doubt its' existence and they are probably right, but something--wishful thinking perhaps?--makes me keep it from the complete hogwash category I mentioned in the OP.

Burrungu is said to be in sacred Aboriginal area, so access to it might be hampered.
 

EnolaGaia

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#34
Concerning the Alaska city, mentioned in the OP, here is its' story ...
Contemporary (and re-published) accounts give the prospector's name as George Kershon. His discovery occurred during the winter of 1888 - 1889.

HIs account has been published multiple times since the late 1880's, with little or no variations in the text. Here are three examples, the earliest of which comes from Photographic Times, Volume XIX, October 18,1889*:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-...YCwDA#v=onepage&q=george kershon city&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=0...wQ6AEIMzAG#v=onepage&q=george kershon&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...YCwDA#v=onepage&q=george kershon city&f=false

It should be pointed out that Kershon's story emerged following a period during which another, more widespread, story (or perhaps set of stories) described mirages in the area of Muir Glacier. These mirages depicted a city referred to as the 'Silent City' or 'Phantom City', and they were a popular topic at the time.

In his published account Kershon claimed the ephemeral Silent / Phantom City mirages were reflections of the physical 'Frozen City' he'd discovered somewhere far up the Yukon River watershed.

* NOTE: If you check the second and third links above, you'll see a closing paragraph that doesn't appear in the earliest (Photographic Times) version. In it, Kershon states he prospected throughout the summer of 1889 and didn't leave the area until the end of August. The Photographic Times article provides an account forwarded to that journal's editor from the San Francisco Examiner. This Examiner article relates an interview with Kershon. The interview article, dated September 28, 1889 (a Saturday) is by-lined as originating from Victoria, BC. It claims Kershon arrived there "on Saturday" on the steamer Elder.
 

gerhard1

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#35
Contemporary (and re-published) accounts give the prospector's name as George Kershon. His discovery occurred during the winter of 1888 - 1889.

HIs account has been published multiple times since the late 1880's, with little or no variations in the text. Here are three examples, the earliest of which comes from Photographic Times, Volume XIX, October 18,1889*:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-bUaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA522&lpg=PA522&dq=george kershon city&source=bl&ots=u1tWM7ooHm&sig=tXZyckI4rg1fBzXSaJb95wvgjO0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yshOU9PEMuTw2gWiuYCwDA#v=onepage&q=george kershon city&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=04o-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=george kershon&source=bl&ots=6nwOGFdCNE&sig=rRTOm0e8jEJigDpYdM708K0noTc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-5veU54_SAhULqVQKHdqgBBwQ6AEIMzAG#v=onepage&q=george kershon&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=pJnZ_nQn9FgC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=george kershon city&source=bl&ots=eK0zNh3iX1&sig=QZd1PVStfTwBIIWG6J8cF0C3_uc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yshOU9PEMuTw2gWiuYCwDA#v=onepage&q=george kershon city&f=false

It should be pointed out that Kershon's story emerged following a period during which another, more widespread, story (or perhaps set of stories) described mirages in the area of Muir Glacier. These mirages depicted a city referred to as the 'Silent City' or 'Phantom City', and they were a popular topic at the time.

In his published account Kershon claimed the ephemeral Silent / Phantom City mirages were reflections of the physical 'Frozen City' he'd discovered somewhere far up the Yukon River watershed.

* NOTE: If you check the second and third links above, you'll see a closing paragraph that doesn't appear in the earliest (Photographic Times) version. In it, Kershon states he prospected throughout the summer of 1889 and didn't leave the area until the end of August. The Photographic Times article provides an account forwarded to that journal's editor from the San Francisco Examiner. This Examiner article relates an interview with Kershon. The interview article, dated September 28, 1889 (a Saturday) is by-lined as originating from Victoria, BC. It claims Kershon arrived there "on Saturday" on the steamer Elder.
Interesting to put it mildly. The Alaskan city remains in the doubtful category, since the time interval, while barely possible, is unlikely. In fairness, it should be pointed out that the current in Alaskan rivers was to the south and the west, and worked against going to the Far North, and in favor of the return trip to the south and west. The time interval, if true certainly works against the story's credibility however.
 

EnolaGaia

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#36
Interesting to put it mildly. The Alaskan city remains in the doubtful category, since the time interval, while barely possible, is unlikely. In fairness, it should be pointed out that the current in Alaskan rivers was to the south and the west, and worked against going to the Far North, and in favor of the return trip to the south and west. The time interval, if true certainly works against the story's credibility however.
Yes - there's room for one or more grains of salt on the Kershon story, because ...

(1) According to the Examiner account Kershon took for-freaking-ever to travel to his remote prospecting site, but made it all the way from who-knows-where 'way up the Yukon River watershed to Victoria in the space of 3 or 4 weeks (depending on which Saturday one believes the correspondent cited as Kershon's arrival date).

(2) The Examiner reporter claimed Kershon arrived on the steamer Elder. There was only one American steamer named 'Elder' registered on the west coast in 1889 - the George W. Elder. As of 1889, this steamer was owned by the Oregon Steamship Company, and all the records I've located claim it was assigned to that company's San Francisco-Portland runs as of 1889. In other words, there's no clear indication the owner of record as of 1889 ever sent the Elder to Alaska at all. However ...

I found a non-specific allusion to the Oregon company loaning some of its steamers to the Pacific Steamship Company to transport folks to Alaska ports for the gold rush. I also ran across an Alaska tourism history webpage that listed the Elder among the ships that were used for tourist excursions to Alaska, and stated such tourist excursions were being done as early as the mid-1880's. According to the tourism site, these excursions went as far as Juneau and typically lasted a month for the round trip from / back to San Francisco. This leaves an opening for the notion that Kershon came to Victoria on the Elder. However, it still begs the question as to whether Kershon could have made it to Juneau from who-knows-where in only about 2 weeks or so.

(3) I'm not even sure Kershon's sighting occurred within Alaska. Only about half the Yukon River's length lies within Alaska; the remainder lies within British Columbia.

I'm also uneasy about the reporter mentioning having been assigned to cover the Muir Glacier mirage stories, working hard to come up with news on that original angle, and somehow on very short notice encountering a returning prospector who happened to have an even more sensational story to tell.
 

gerhard1

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#37
Yes - there's room for one or more grains of salt on the Kershon story, because ...

(1) According to the Examiner account Kershon took for-freaking-ever to travel to his remote prospecting site, but made it all the way from who-knows-where 'way up the Yukon River watershed to Victoria in the space of 3 or 4 weeks (depending on which Saturday one believes the correspondent cited as Kershon's arrival date).

(2) The Examiner reporter claimed Kershon arrived on the steamer Elder. There was only one American steamer named 'Elder' registered on the west coast in 1889 - the George W. Elder. As of 1889, this steamer was owned by the Oregon Steamship Company, and all the records I've located claim it was assigned to that company's San Francisco-Portland runs as of 1889. In other words, there's no clear indication the owner of record as of 1889 ever sent the Elder to Alaska at all. However ...

I found a non-specific allusion to the Oregon company loaning some of its steamers to the Pacific Steamship Company to transport folks to Alaska ports for the gold rush. I also ran across an Alaska tourism history webpage that listed the Elder among the ships that were used for tourist excursions to Alaska, and stated such tourist excursions were being done as early as the mid-1880's. According to the tourism site, these excursions went as far as Juneau and typically lasted a month for the round trip from / back to San Francisco. This leaves an opening for the notion that Kershon came to Victoria on the Elder. However, it still begs the question as to whether Kershon could have made it to Juneau from who-knows-where in only about 2 weeks or so.

(3) I'm not even sure Kershon's sighting occurred within Alaska. Only about half the Yukon River's length lies within Alaska; the remainder lies within British Columbia.

I'm also uneasy about the reporter mentioning having been assigned to cover the Muir Glacier mirage stories, working hard to come up with news on that original angle, and somehow on very short notice encountering a returning prospector who happened to have an even more sensational story to tell.
Vincent Gaddis mentioned the Muir Glacier mirage in his book Invisible Horizons, but there was no suggestion as to where image originated.

I'm curious: you seem to know quite a bit about the Kershon story. What got you interested in it? The first that I came across the story was in the book by Ferrell, and I haven't been able to find it on-line, except for the places that you linked to.
Thank you for the links, BTW.
 

EnolaGaia

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#38
... I'm curious: you seem to know quite a bit about the Kershon story. What got you interested in it? The first that I came across the story was in the book by Ferrell, and I haven't been able to find it on-line, except for the places that you linked to.
Thank you for the links, BTW.
You're welcome ...

I had no interest or experience in this specific story prior to reading your post from this morning (14 February). I was, however, familiar with the mirage / Muir / Fairweather stories from having read about them as far back as the 1960's.

Something about your post (Yukon region; weirdness; prospectors) rang a faint bell, so I went searching for whatever earlier FTMB thread(s) contained whatever was resonating in my memory. That turned out to be the similarly weird Nahanni / Valley of the Headless Men thread from 2012:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...the-headless-men-nahanni-valley-canada.50494/

Once having determined that story and the one you cited were different, I went searching for clues on yours. The hardest part was wading through a ton of references to the 'silent' / 'phantom' city mirage stories until I came across mention of your version of a Yukon lost city tale, which fortuitously cited the name 'Kershon'. From that point onward I had a precise target ...

Anyway ... I'd delved down to the earliest accessible newspaper accounts after no more than 1 - 1.5 hours of pursuing the exercise (alongside breakfast, emails, moderating another forum, etc.), and posted what I'd learned circa 3.5 hours after your posting. By this time I'd already noticed Kershon's published interview was dated so as to require a notably expeditious exit from wherever-he-was, and I thought I caught a whiff of a fishy smell. In the course of the following 1 - 2 hours I'd dug into the topic of the Elder to see if I could corroborate one of the few specifics cited in the interview article.

Sorry to belabor this, but I wanted to illustrate what could be done online from a standing start. For the record - I have a longstanding reputation as a 'finder'.

SIDE NOTE: I was wrong about the Canadian half of the Yukon River being in BC. The ultimate headwaters are in BC, but most of the Canadian stretch lies within the Yukon Territory. Sorry ...
 

gerhard1

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#39
Having just looked at the article in Ferrell's book once more, it confirmed the prospector as Kershon. Object lesson to me: don't go just by memory, especially if it has been a while since the article in question was read.
 

EnolaGaia

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#40
A few follow-on comments ...

If you check the Photographic Times archive (first of three links posted earlier ... ) and scroll down another page or so, you'll see a note from a 'William E. George', claimed to be a pilot on the George W. Elder. The timeframes cited in his story indicate the Elder was indeed servicing Juneau and other Alaskan ports (presumably on loan to the Pacific Steamship Company) in September 1889. This essentially negates my initial skepticism as to whether the reference to the Elder was a flaw in the story.

Some of the articles specifically state Kershon went to Alaska in his forty-third year. Given his arrival there sometime in 1888, this would put his birth year circa 1845.

I was unable to locate any references to a British-born George or George H. Kershon matching that clue. I also checked under the more common name Gershon, but found nothing clearly relevant.

I also failed to locate any record of any Alaskan or Canadian prospecting claim filed under the name Kershon.
 

gerhard1

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#41
Shamballah (or Shambhala) is kind of interesting. It is a city alleged to be in the Himalayas, that has seen both Nazi and Soviet attempts to locate it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambhala

One problem may be that, according to some, the city does not exist in our physical dimension, but on a spiritual plane.
 

chicorea

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#43
Herakleion and Heliké are examples of "lost" (more accurately, sunken) cities that have been found and explored in the recent decades. Herakleion particularly have turned into a rich source of fine exemples of sculptures.

Regarding the legendary sunken cities, there is also the city of Ys, a supposed sunken city in Bretagne, France. I don't have a link in English at hand, but I will try to post one later.
 

gerhard1

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#44
Herakleion and Heliké are examples of "lost" (more accurately, sunken) cities that have been found and explored in the recent decades. Herakleion particularly have turned into a rich source of fine exemples of sculptures.

Regarding the legendary sunken cities, there is also the city of Ys, a supposed sunken city in Bretagne, France. I don't have a link in English at hand, but I will try to post one later.
Is this close to what you had in mind?

http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/armorican.html#Ys
 

chicorea

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#45
Oh yes, this is a very complete link!

I was thinking about the Wikipedia link, but this one is pretty complete regarding the stories of Cote d'Armor, that is how Armorica is called today. My wife and her maternal side were born there, so I keep some links with the whole region. I have been at Douarnenez a couple of years ago, a lovely city. I also have a couple of books about Ys, but in French. I guess that because of the barrier of the language this legend isn't that much popular.

Imagine discovering a sunken city right in front of the Channel...
 

rynner2

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#46
Wiki on Ys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ys

A little further south from Douarnenez, on the Biscay coast, is the Gulf of Morbihan, an interesting landscape flooded by the sea. (I have sailed there.)

Morbihan (French pronunciation: [mɔʁbi.ɑ̃]; Breton: Mor-Bihan, Breton pronunciation: [morˈbiˑãn]) is a department in Brittany, situated in the northwest of France. It is named after the Morbihan (small sea in Breton), the enclosed sea that is the principal feature of the coastline. It is noted for its Carnac stones, which predate and are more extensive than the more familiar Stonehenge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbihan

The Gulf of Morbihan has many islands: 365 according to legend, but, in reality, between 30 and 40, depending on how they are counted. There are also many islets which are too small to be built on. Of these islands, all but two are private: l'Île-aux-Moines and l'Île-d'Arz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbihan#Geography

The Gulf of Morbihan is a popular sailing destination [But beware, the tides are very strong!]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbihan#/media/File:Entre_Golfe_Morbihan.JPG

I don't know of any lost cities hereabouts, but to me the Morbihan seems a better setting for Ys than Douarnenez!
 

gerhard1

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#48
Wiki on Ys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ys

A little further south from Douarnenez, on the Biscay coast, is the Gulf of Morbihan, an interesting landscape flooded by the sea. (I have sailed there.)

Morbihan (French pronunciation: [mɔʁbi.ɑ̃]; Breton: Mor-Bihan, Breton pronunciation: [morˈbiˑãn]) is a department in Brittany, situated in the northwest of France. It is named after the Morbihan (small sea in Breton), the enclosed sea that is the principal feature of the coastline. It is noted for its Carnac stones, which predate and are more extensive than the more familiar Stonehenge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbihan

The Gulf of Morbihan has many islands: 365 according to legend, but, in reality, between 30 and 40, depending on how they are counted. There are also many islets which are too small to be built on. Of these islands, all but two are private: l'Île-aux-Moines and l'Île-d'Arz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbihan#Geography

The Gulf of Morbihan is a popular sailing destination [But beware, the tides are very strong!]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbihan#/media/File:Entre_Golfe_Morbihan.JPG

I don't know of any lost cities hereabouts, but to me the Morbihan seems a better setting for Ys than Douarnenez!
The question that I would ask is: is Ys a lost city or a purely mythical place?

Troy was considered mythical, so perhaps we had best be careful answering that one. That includes me, BTW.

Examples of cities that I would consider mythical would perhaps the City of the Caesars, (in the Patagonian region of South America) Shamballah, (in the Himalayas) and possibly Atlantis.
 

gerhard1

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#49
Herakleion and Heliké are examples of "lost" (more accurately, sunken) cities that have been found and explored in the recent decades. Herakleion particularly have turned into a rich source of fine exemples of sculptures.

Regarding the legendary sunken cities, there is also the city of Ys, a supposed sunken city in Bretagne, France. I don't have a link in English at hand, but I will try to post one later.
And let us not forget the sunken City off the Indian coast near Dwarka.
 

gerhard1

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#51

JamesWhitehead

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#52
I tried a number of more celebrated artists - Barenboim, Rubinstein . . . the videos seem to have been taken down.

I was left with Ms. Huppmann but had no complaints. Youtube is rapidly becoming a trailer-park.

The piece is famous for its wide dynamic range. I have my Mac wired into an amplifier - it sounded OK but not ultra-HiFi! o_O
 

EnolaGaia

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#54
The City of Caesars' is an interesting legend. I put its' existence somewhere between doubtful and hogwash.

Most seem to take a very skeptical view of it.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/city-caesars-00161
Agreed - at least on the basis of the 'evidence' to date ...

One problem is that the earliest references to such a treasure-filled place mention a single 'city' and at least vaguely suggest it was left from the Incas (or some similarly sophisticated civilization). Plausible ... Never confirmed, but still plausible at face value ...

The most recent tales speak of multiple cities (sometimes framed as one or more core cities with additional outposts or fortresses), and the originators are claimed (perhaps predictably ... ) to be visitors from elsewhere. My understanding is that promoters of the legend currently tout some of Forteana's favorite usual suspects - the Knights Templar.

Another problem is that the site most often claimed to be among the city's / cities' fortresses (the so-called Argentine Fort) is clearly an imposing natural plateau upon which nobody (to my knowledge ... ) has demonstrated past presence of substantial settlement or architecture.

Finally, I've never been able to shake off a certain skeptically-trending apprehension triggered by the fact the first person to mention a 'City of Caesars' (circa the 1520's) was named Francisco Cesar.
 

Ulalume

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#55
It's neither ancient nor mysterious, but Indianola, Texas might qualify as a lost city. It was once a busy port town, until it was wiped out by a hurricane. Well - wiped out, rebuilt, then wiped out again, this time permanently.
http://texasescapes.com/TexasGhostTowns/IndianolaTexas/IndianolaTx.htm
We used to go there to the beach sometimes, and it was an eerie feeling knowing that whatever was left of the city was lost under the water. Bits and pieces would sometimes wash up on shore. Something about the place seems oppressively sad.
 

gerhard1

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#56
Agreed - at least on the basis of the 'evidence' to date ...

One problem is that the earliest references to such a treasure-filled place mention a single 'city' and at least vaguely suggest it was left from the Incas (or some similarly sophisticated civilization). Plausible ... Never confirmed, but still plausible at face value ...

The most recent tales speak of multiple cities (sometimes framed as one or more core cities with additional outposts or fortresses), and the originators are claimed (perhaps predictably ... ) to be visitors from elsewhere. My understanding is that promoters of the legend currently tout some of Forteana's favorite usual suspects - the Knights Templar.

Another problem is that the site most often claimed to be among the city's / cities' fortresses (the so-called Argentine Fort) is clearly an imposing natural plateau upon which nobody (to my knowledge ... ) has demonstrated past presence of substantial settlement or architecture.

Finally, I've never been able to shake off a certain skeptically-trending apprehension triggered by the fact the first person to mention a 'City of Caesars' (circa the 1520's) was named Francisco Cesar.
Good point about Francisco Cesar.
 

gerhard1

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#57
Karen Mutton, in Sunken Realms, tells of pilots who sighted underwater ruins during WWII very close to St Peter and St Paul Rocks. (1N, 30W) There are also reports of underwater structures seen at 6N, 20W.

Be cautious in accepting these kind of reports. I'll do some checking.
 

gerhard1

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#58
Keeping my previous post in mind, here is a youtube vid that says google earth shows an underwater city at about 31 N, 24 W. I don't have google earth, but the satellite imagery from google maps shows nothing at that location.


Am I all wet here, or does anyone else see anything that looks like a city there?
 

EnolaGaia

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#59
This story alludes to a 'lost city' (Irisagrig, in Mesopotamia) whose location has never been determined.

I'm not sure about this claim. 'Irisagrig' is listed as another name for the extinct city Urusagrig. Urusagrig is occasionally cited as an earlier settlement at or very near the Sharrakum site.

Stolen Sumerian Tablets Come from the Lost City of Irisagrig
Hundreds of 4,000 year old tablets that were looted in Iraq and bought by the U.S. company Hobby Lobby seem to hail from a mysterious Sumerian city whose whereabouts are unknown, a U.S. law enforcement agency just announced.

The tablets are part of a cache of thousands of looted artifacts purchased by Hobby Lobby and seized by the U.S. government. They are now set to be returned to Iraq.

Of the 450 cuneiform tablets in that haul, many came from an ancient city called Irisagrig, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcements said in a statement. Many of these tablets date from between 2100 B.C. and 1600 B.C., the statement said. Most of them are legal or administrative texts– meaning that they contain records such as contracts and inventories of goods that made it easier for private citizens and the city’s government to run their affairs – while a few contain a form of magical spells called incantations, the statement said. ...

Irisagrig is a "Sumerian city never excavated before and whose location remains unknown," wrote Manuel Molina, a research professor with the Spanish National Research Council, in a paper published in the book "From the 21st Century BC to the 21st Century AD: Proceedings of the International Conference on Neo-Sumerian Studies Held in Madrid 22-24 July 2010" (Eisenbrauns, 2013).

The exact location of this site has been debated among scholars Molina wrote, adding that a number of tablets from Irisagrig have appeared on the antiquities market in recent years and may have been looted recently. ...
FULL STORY: https://www.livescience.com/62437-stolen-sumerian-tablets-from-lost-city.html
 
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