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Mad For God: When Christians Attack

Originally posted by LobeliaOverhill
Oh, and Han Solo shot first!
Click to expand...


Not any more, he doesn't. Now, Greedo shoots first. In the original, the poor blue bugger didn't get a shot off.

What can I say? I live with a film buff, whose particular speciality is Star Wars! :D
 
Precisely what I was protesting about Rave ... Han shot first (originally) ;)
 
Yeah, but he's a scruffy looking nerf herder, so I'll forgive him ;)
 
and a deluded laser brained pirate ... just what every girl wants :blissed:
 
Absolutely. You can keep yer pious Jedi Knights.

Thinks - if I lost some weight, I could get the Princess Leia slave bikini costume out..... :D
 
How come these Christians can get away with it?, what if it was a Pagan/ Satanist/Jew/Muslim?.:(

ps, Han Solo, my hero;)
 
What in God's name (possibly literally) was going on here:

Couple arrested after church workers fear child sacrifice

By BRIAN DEKONING
Union Leader Correspondent
Telephone Credit Union

ROCHESTER — A Farmington woman who allegedly said she wanted to "sacrifice" at least one of her children in a local church on Wednesday is scheduled to face child endangerment charges in court today, along with her boyfriend.

Nicole M. Mancini, 29, of 8 Peaceful Pines Circle in Farmington and John L. Thurber, 35, of Four Rod Road in Rochester, were arrested at St. Mary Church, 71 Lowell St., about 3 p.m. Wednesday after church staff called police.

Parish secretary Donna Landolfi yesterday said she was one of three church staff members working when Mancini arrived at the church office sometime after 2:45 p.m. Wednesday. Landolfi said Mancini was dressed in pajamas and had her three sons, as well as Thurber, with her.

According to Landolfi, police were called after "(Mancini) said, 'I need to place my child on the altar before three o'clock.' As she walked down the corridor, she said the word 'sacrifice.' That told me we were dealing with an extreme situation," Landolfi said.

Police charged Mancini and Thurber each with three Class A misdemeanors of endangering the welfare of a child, according to Rochester police Lt. Paul Callaghan. Thurber also was charged with one Class A misdemeanor of possession of marijuana.

Under state law, a Class A misdemeanor is punishable by up to a year in jail.

"Our investigation has led us to believe they wanted to sacrifice all three of them," Callaghan said yesterday of the children. "That's why they're both charged."

Police did not recover any weapons or drugs that could have been used to harm the children, Callaghan said. He said the three boys did not appear to be injured and that the children were placed in DCYF custody after the incident.

Police listed the boys' ages as 9, 7, and 2 years old and said Thurber is the father of the youngest boy.

Callaghan said Thurber and Mancini earlier had stopped at "one prior church" in Farmington but could not get in. They then went to St. Mary's, about a half mile from Route 125 in southern Rochester, according to police.

Callaghan said Mancini and Thurber were taken into custody without struggle.

"It's a bizarre case," he said.

Police had not searched the homes of Mancini or Thurber as of yesterday afternoon, Callaghan said. The couple were evaluated at Frisbie Memorial Hospital in Rochester after their arrests, said Callaghan, who declined to comment on whether the couple was under the influence of drugs or alcohol during the incident.

Mancini and Thurber are each being held in the Strafford County House of Corrections in lieu of ,000 cash bail. They are scheduled to appear in Rochester District Court today at 1 p.m.

Church secretary Landolfi said yesterday that Mancini was intent on getting into the church and that she told church staff they could not stop her from going to the altar.

"We could tell this woman was not all right," Landolfi said yesterday. "She said, 'Let's go make the sacrifice.'"

Landolfi said she dialed 911 after she heard Mancini say "sacrifice."

"She had a mission. She wanted to put her child on the altar," Landolfi said.

After Mancini left the office and headed toward the church's main worship area, Sister Lucie Ducas, a St. Mary employee, followed Mancini and talked to her in a gathering room outside the main worship area, Landolfi said.

"She has good people skills and she just sort of followed them and talked to her," Landolfi said.

Mancini then sat down in front of a statue of Jesus as if she was going to pray. Five police cruisers arrived soon after, Landolfi said.
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http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=46978

Well worth keeping an eye out for follow ups on this in the next few days.
 
Couple arrested after church workers fear child sacrifice

Hi

source:
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Source


quote:
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Couple arrested after church workers fear child sacrifice

Posted: Fri, Nov. 12 2004
Weblogged by ReligionNewsBlog.com


The Union Leader (USA), Nov. 12, 2004
http://www.theunionleader.com
By Brian DeKoning, Union Leader Correspondent

ROCHESTER — A Farmington woman who allegedly said she wanted to "sacrifice" at least one of her children in a local church on Wednesday is scheduled to face child endangerment charges in court today, along with her boyfriend.

Nicole M. Mancini, 29, of 8 Peaceful Pines Circle in Farmington and John L. Thurber, 35, of Four Rod Road in Rochester, were arrested at St. Mary Church, 71 Lowell St., about 3 p.m. Wednesday after church staff called police.

Parish secretary Donna Landolfi yesterday said she was one of three church staff members working when Mancini arrived at the church office sometime after 2:45 p.m. Wednesday. Landolfi said Mancini was dressed in pajamas and had her three sons, as well as Thurber, with her.

According to Landolfi, police were called after "(Mancini) said, 'I need to place my child on the altar before three o'clock.' As she walked down the corridor, she said the word 'sacrifice.' That told me we were dealing with an extreme situation," Landolfi said.

Police charged Mancini and Thurber each with three Class A misdemeanors of endangering the welfare of a child, according to Rochester police Lt. Paul Callaghan. Thurber also was charged with one Class A misdemeanor of possession of marijuana.

Under state law, a Class A misdemeanor is punishable by up to a year in jail.

"Our investigation has led us to believe they wanted to sacrifice all three of them," Callaghan said yesterday of the children. "That's why they're both charged."

Police did not recover any weapons or drugs that could have been used to harm the children, Callaghan said. He said the three boys did not appear to be injured and that the children were placed in DCYF custody after the incident.

Police listed the boys' ages as 9, 7, and 2 years old and said Thurber is the father of the youngest boy.

Callaghan said Thurber and Mancini earlier had stopped at "one prior church" in Farmington but could not get in. They then went to St. Mary's, about a half mile from Route 125 in southern Rochester, according to police.

Callaghan said Mancini and Thurber were taken into custody without struggle.

"It's a bizarre case," he said.

Police had not searched the homes of Mancini or Thurber as of yesterday afternoon, Callaghan said. The couple were evaluated at Frisbie Memorial Hospital in Rochester after their arrests, said Callaghan, who declined to comment on whether the couple was under the influence of drugs or alcohol during the incident.

Mancini and Thurber are each being held in the Strafford County House of Corrections in lieu of $25,000 cash bail. They are scheduled to appear in Rochester District Court today at 1 p.m.

Church secretary Landolfi said yesterday that Mancini was intent on getting into the church and that she told church staff they could not stop her from going to the altar.

"We could tell this woman was not all right," Landolfi said yesterday. "She said, 'Let's go make the sacrifice.'"

Landolfi said she dialed 911 after she heard Mancini say "sacrifice."

"She had a mission. She wanted to put her child on the altar," Landolfi said.

After Mancini left the office and headed toward the church's main worship area, Sister Lucie Ducas, a St. Mary employee, followed Mancini and talked to her in a gathering room outside the main worship area, Landolfi said.

"She has good people skills and she just sort of followed them and talked to her," Landolfi said.

Mancini then sat down in front of a statue of Jesus as if she was going to pray. Five police cruisers arrived soon after, Landolfi said.

---------------------

Endquote

Mal F
 
Hmmm. First thought on reading this thread: "Why isn't it called "'when nutcases attack' " because that would be far more accurate. These people are Christians and they are or think they are acting under the direction of God, but I'd say their emotional and mental illnesses are guiding them. Second thought on reading this thread: most of the New Testament but especially the book of James and the book of Jude say again and again to take guidance and bring your doubts to your brethern in Christ. I'm not seeing where any of these people went to a fellow Christian or their pastor or anything and said "God keeps telling me to do this, what do you think?" So they were NOT acting in Christianity in any way shape or form, they were acting out of mental illness.

Why not change the thread to "When Insane Christians Attack", because otherwise frankly it's a blatant slam against Christians - not exactly the sort of openmindedness or tolerance that's been the topic of several threads on this board of late.
 
Fallen Angel said:
Hmmm. First thought on reading this thread: "Why isn't it called "'when nutcases attack' " because that would be far more accurate. These people are Christians and they are or think they are acting under the direction of God, but I'd say their emotional and mental illnesses are guiding them. Second thought on reading this thread: most of the New Testament but especially the book of James and the book of Jude say again and again to take guidance and bring your doubts to your brethern in Christ. I'm not seeing where any of these people went to a fellow Christian or their pastor or anything and said "God keeps telling me to do this, what do you think?" So they were NOT acting in Christianity in any way shape or form, they were acting out of mental illness.

Why not change the thread to "When Insane Christians Attack", because otherwise frankly it's a blatant slam against Christians - not exactly the sort of openmindedness or tolerance that's been the topic of several threads on this board of late.
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I think it is fairly obvious that they aren't right in the head. This is just one of the themed threads which are sub-divisions of the strange deaths/unusual attacks that we have split off over time e.g.:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16585

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14434

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17729

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16585

I dont think there is any need to be too overly literal in the thread title as we can rely on Forteans to spot that people here are wacko.
 
Seems like his will be an interesting trial when we get stuck into the details:

Saturday, November 13, 2004


Couple arraigned in child sacrifice case; lawyers argue no harm intended

Farmington mom threatens to sacrifice child at Rochester church

By NATE PARDUE

Democrat Staff Writer

ROCHESTER — Attorneys for a Farmington woman and her boyfriend, charged with entering St. Mary’s Church to sacrifice her children, argued Friday they never meant to do anyone harm.

Nicole Mancini, 29, of 8 Peaceful Pines Circle, and her boyfriend John Thurber, 35, of Four Rod Road in Rochester, pleaded not guilty Friday to three counts each of endangering the welfare of a child. Thurber also pleaded not guilty to possession of marijuana.

The charges stemmed from an incident Wednesday where Mancini and Thurber entered the Lowell Street church with her three children for the purpose of sacrificing them, according to police.

The incident occurred about 3 p.m. and was reported to police by church staff.

During the arraignment on Friday, Mancini appeared flustered and confused. Throughout, she made several hand and facial gestures at Thurber, while at other times, placed her head down on the table and covered her ears with her hands.

Thurber stood quietly while the lawyers gave their arguments.

Attorneys for both defendants said Mancini never intended to hurt any of her children.

"They were never tied to the altar, there was no blood, there were no constraints for sacrificial use," said Kimberly Shoen, Mancini’s attorney.

According to Linda Slamon, Thurber’s attorney, Thurber said Mancini had been acting "irrationally" recently, and Thurber accompanied her to church to get her help.

"If anything, he was there to protect the children and protect Miss Mancini," Slamon said.

Each of the child endangerment charges stem from accusations that Mancini and Thurber entered the church "for the purpose of sacrificing (their lives) to God." The charges were read aloud at the arraignment by Judge Bruce Larson.

After their arrest, police charged that Mancini wanted to sacrifice all three children, but a church staff member said Mancini indicated she wanted to sacrifice only one of the children at the church altar.

Rochester Police Detective Eric Dugas argued for ,000 cash bail for both Thurber and Mancini.

But Shoen argued the bail was unjust because her client was not a flight risk and had no prior criminal record.

"Zero. No convictions, no jail time. Zero," Shoen said. "There’s no reason for bail to be that high."

"Other than the point she’s charged with trying to sacrifice them," Dugas responded.

Dugas also argued that Thurber was an acting participant in the incident, he knew of her desire to sacrifice her children, and they had talked about it beforehand.

Larson eventually set Mancini’s bail at ,000 personal recognizance and 0 cash bail. Thurber’s bail was set at ,000 personal recognizance and 0 cash surety.

Mancini and Thurber are both allowed to see the children, but only under strict supervision. The children, ages 9, 7, and 1½, were put into the custody of the Division for Children Youth and Families after the incident. Thurber and Mancini are the youngest child’s parents.

Judge Larson also said he would take issues of Mancini’s competency under advisement.

A trial date is scheduled for April 8, 2005.
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http://www4.fosters.com/november_2004/11.13.04/news/ro_1113a.asp
 
No, no, no! You've got it all wrong! You're supposed to make sacrifices for your children, not of your children!

Jeesh.

These people really need to bone up on the Parents' Handbook.

Nonny
 
Eccentric accused of killing his father

Victim, 80, was former scientist at weapons lab

Demian Bulwa, Chronicle Staff Writer

Monday, December 13, 2004


Hans Aaland has for years been Livermore's living oddity -- riding a 12-foot-tall unicycle in a jester hat, passing out protest leaflets, addressing the City Council on the "beauty of the community," and spouting revelations from God.

The 46-year-old man had a few run-ins with the law as well, but some people who know him say they were shocked nonetheless by his arrest this weekend on suspicion of killing of his father.

Police say Aaland smothered his father, Kristian Aaland, early Saturday as the father slept in the bedroom of the home he shared with his son and wife. Hans Aaland, police said, told his mother what he had done, left a confession note full of biblical quotations and walked away from the home.

Next-door neighbor Dan Emmrich said he knew Hans Aaland wasn't like everyone else but, "I never thought he was dangerous."

Kristian Aaland, 80, an eccentric former scientist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who buried a boxcar in his front yard as a bomb shelter during the Cold War, was found dead at 10:30 a.m. Saturday after his wife called for help, said police Sgt. Jim Suibielski.

Police entering the home on the 3900 block of California Way were so stunned by the conditions inside that they summoned building inspectors, who that same day red-tagged the building. Suibielski said some of the oddities included bare electrical wires, crudely built additions and stairwells, the bomb shelter, and stacks of belongings piled everywhere.

"The house is just incredible," Suibielski said. "It is not capable of human occupancy."

Kristian Aaland's wife and other family members couldn't be reached Sunday for comment.

Hans Aaland was arrested two hours after leaving his home as he walked on First Street in downtown Livermore. He was booked into Santa Rita Jail on suspicion of murder. Before his arrest, Suibielski said, Hans Aaland stopped by a friend's home and nonchalantly mentioned that he had killed his father.

Kristian Aaland was born in Norway, graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in electrical engineering and was a career worker at the weapons lab, said Hiram Van Blarigan, president of the local chapter of Self Help for Hard of Hearing People. The victim was a member.

Neighbors said Kristian and Hans Aaland spent long hours together working on the father's beloved classic cars, French Citroens, which sat in various states of disrepair in front of the house.

Hans Aaland went to Livermore High School and spent some time at nearby Las Positas College. He became well-known in recent years in both Livermore and Pleasanton for his bizarre antics, such as riding around in his unicycle.

Most of his behavior seemed harmless. During a Livermore City Council meeting in November 2003, he "said there was a lack of the eye for beauty all around," according to the meeting minutes. "He suggested alternative ways of diverting attention to the beauty of the community."

A couple years back, Hans Aaland was given a break in the form of a job by Fernando Oliveira, the owner of Bruno's Italian Cuisine in downtown Livermore -- where he helped out and sometimes delivered pizzas, employees said. But the job didn't last long. Employees said he used to carry around a box of toys and once passed out flyers asking people to use only paper made of hemp.

Just last Thursday, a local resident said, he showed up at a restaurant, the Pine Street Grill, wearing a Viking hat to participate in a karaoke competition. He qualified for the semifinals this week.

But Hans Aaland also found trouble. Pleasanton police Sgt. Suzanne Soberanes said he stalked a 16-year-old girl he met at the Alameda County Fair, sending her "bizarre letters" that forced her to obtain a restraining order.

Then on March 12 of last year, he rode his unicycle onto the campus of Foothill High School, a girl's school. When an officer tried to arrest him, he said he was on a "mission from God" and swung a large branch, Soberanes said. He pleaded no contest to a misdemeanor count of resisting arrest.

Suibielski said Hans Aaland also has a minor arrest record in Livermore.

In recent years, Hans Aaland has also flooded a California Highway Patrol office in Sacramento with faxes -- sometimes as many as 25 in a day -- mostly full of biblical references, Suibielski said.

He said Hans Aaland never made any threats, but because he once went to Sacramento to try to talk to the governor, the CHP "spoke with him often."
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http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/13/BAGGKAAQ791.DTL
 
RELIGIOSITY COMMON AMONG MOTHERS WHO KILL CHILDREN

Greets

RELIGIOSITY COMMON AMONG MOTHERS WHO KILL CHILDREN

ASSOCIATED PRESS December 13, 2004


DALLAS - Andrea Yates said Satan told her to drown her five children.

Deanna Laney said the Lord sent her signs to beat her three sons with stones.

And the night before Dena Schlosser became the latest Texas mother to take her child's life, she told her husband she wanted to give her children to God. The suburban Dallas mother was charged with capital murder for severing her 10-month-old baby's arms. Attorneys were expected to discuss her competency in court Tuesday.

Women who kill their children commonly cite God, the devil and other religious influences for their actions. Although the mothers are also often found to be severely mentally ill or psychotic, the recurring theme of religiosity begs the question: Is religion to blame?

Theologians, sociologists and psychiatrists generally say no. They say religiosity is a common theme among psychotics because hallucinations and delusions usually take familiar forms.

"Most of the people in nut houses are religious because most Americans are religious," said Rodney Stark, a social sciences professor at Baylor University. "We know what causes schizophrenia and it isn't going to church. It's biochemical."

But some experts suggest mental illness is harder to detect and treat in faiths more inclined to attribute odd behavior to Satan and trust prayer over medicine.

"They're not seeing this as a mental illness. They're seeing it as the person having demons, perhaps, or a sin problem or not being spiritually fulfilled," said Roger Olson, a theology professor at Baylor's Truett Seminary.

And, in some fundamentalist environments, symptoms of mental illness can appear normal: Obsession over a religious leader can be interpreted as religious fervor, and delusions can be interpreted as religious visions.

Schlosser's husband wasn't alarmed when she told him she wanted to give her children to God, according to Texas' Child Protective Services. The agency took temporary custody of the couple's other girls, ages 6 and 9, after the baby was killed, and cited the father's failure to act after his wife's warning.

The Schlossers attended the non-denominational Water of Life church, led by Doyle Davidson, a self-proclaimed prophet who teaches that women possess a rebellious jezebel spirit and that the Ten Commandments don't apply to the righteous.

Schlosser's parents believe Davidson's teachings helped push her toward a psychotic break, but Davidson dismisses those claims, saying he had little interaction with the Schlossers.

In Laney's case, the lifelong Pentecostal told her congregation in the East Texas town of Tyler that the world was ending and God told her to get her house in order. No one expressed concern, though psychiatrists later determined Laney was psychotic at the time.

Laney used rocks to beat to death two young sons and severely maim her toddler in 2003. She was acquitted by reason of insanity earlier this year.

Dr. Phillip Resnick, who testified in Laney's trial, said he was struck by comments Laney's pastor made when asked about symptoms of mental illness.

"He indicated that, had some of these things come to his attention, he would have referred her to a religious person, rather than to a psychiatrist, to correct her religious perceptions," Resnick said.

"If you're a hammer, things look like a nail. So if you're a religious person, you tend to think of religion as the answer to the problem," he said.

Olson said that while religion doesn't cause mental illness, he believes existing conditions can be inflamed by religious environments where leaders demand absolute obedience and claim to speak for God.

People with schizophrenia, personality disorders and a host of other mental disorders may be drawn such faiths for their structure, he said.

"This kind of culture, religious atmosphere, group dynamic can set up a situation where that person is more likely to act out in aggressive ways under tremendous pressure," Olson said.

In a recent study of 39 Ohio and Michigan women - all acquitted by reason of insanity in the deaths of their children since the 1970s - about 15 had religious-themed delusions, said Dr. Susan Hatters Friedman, a psychiatry fellow at Case Western Reserve University.

Another study of 56 Michigan mothers referred for psychiatric evaluations from 1974-1976 after killing their children found nearly a fourth of them experienced religious delusions, said study co-author Dr. Catherine Lewis, an assistant professor at the University of Connecticut Health Center.

She said nearly all the women were Christian and many attended fundamentalist churches, but cautioned against assumptions.

"What isn't clear is what's causing what," she said. "Is the church causing people to develop these feelings or are people with these feelings more likely to gravitate toward a fundamentalist church?"

Yates, Laney and Schlosser all followed Christian fundamentalist teachings. So did their husbands, but with less zeal than their wives.

Schlosser's parents said she became religious in the last several years, reading the Bible and trying to convert them to the Davidson's teachings. Laney became much more devout before the killings, hearing God's voice and waking early to study the Bible, according to trial testimony.

Yates, the Houston mother sentenced to life in prison, said she drowned her children in 2001 to save them from eternal damnation. Before the killings, she corresponded with a traveling preacher who taught that only the saved could avoid hell's fires.

Resnick said religious delusions often convince mothers that they're saving children from evil or proving their faith to God.

"If you think about why a parent would kill a child, since there's a natural love and protective instinct, one would say it would have to be overcome with a psychotic belief that they're doing what's in the child's best interest," he said.
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Source

(nb there may be a statistical relationship but this shouldn't necessarily iimply a causal relationship.)

Mal
 
Mal: I've merged your post with this one as we have discussed the Deanna Laney here already.

Fascinating report but I have to say that that conclusion is cobblers (as Mal points out at the end). While there is danger of some mental health issues being interpretted and treated within a religious setting which might cause problems it is clear from the various occult deaths and strange deaths threads we have that "God told me to do it" is only one of a huge range of "disinhibitory delusions" (i.e. ones that permit the barrier for unacceptable behaviour to drop a little). The reason there would be such a high correlation between child killing and religion in the States is that a high proportion of people are very religious in the States. If you looked at these killings elsewhere you would find more secular reasons or one's based within the prevailing belief system.

I haven't read the studies (although I'll try to track them down*) but they'd also need to show that the child killing was disproportionally higher amongst church going mothers. Without that then it is tricky to prove that being religious makes you more likely to kill your children.

* I've tried an failed but I'll keep an eye open for them.
 
No, no, no! You've got it all wrong! You're supposed to make sacrifices for your children, not of your children!
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Abraham didn't think so:D At least he was willing to go for it until he got instructions to the contrary.

It is interesting that this is exactly the sort of thing that certain christian factions are rather fond of accusing alleged satanists of.
 
Besides which, aren't you supposed to give God animal sacrifices? I'm pretty sure he only demands human ones when he's testing you.

Emperor said:
riding a 12-foot-tall unicycle in a jester hat
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:shock:
:lol:
 
One note: there seems to be one consistent thread here besides the simple fact of Christianity: in each case these people are listening to a preacher or someone calling themselves a prophet. Koresh, Guiana, moms killing kids... anyone notice a pattern here? Just playing God's advocate, here, but hey, the bible does warn against false prophets doing the work of Satan. IMO this sort of thing definitely qualifies!
 
It all certainly does beg the question of what reason they would have given for killing their children if they hadn't 'sacrificed' them on god's orders?
 
Posted on Tue, Dec. 21, 2004

Minister attacked on altar called ‘the devil’

Police use stun gun to remove man; attempted murder charge filed.

From The Associated Press

WHITELAND — A man attacked and choked his pastor in front of the altar of their church, calling the clergyman “the devil” and leaving him in a hospital, police said.

The Rev. Bill McElroy of Missionary Baptist Church was hospitalized at Community Hospital South in nearby Indianapolis, said Whiteland Police Chief Joe Pitcher.

David J. Cooper, 40, was being held at the Johnson County Jail in Franklin on preliminary charges of attempted murder, aggravated battery and resisting arrest.

When police arrived on the scene Sunday morning, they found the 72-year-old pastor lying before the altar, blue in the face and not breathing, Pitcher said.

Officer Jason Davis and a congregation member tried to revive McElroy, but Cooper pushed Davis away and began choking McElroy, police said.

Davis stopped the attack by using a stun gun several times, Pitcher said.

As Davis and another officer put handcuffs on Cooper, he started again toward McElroy.

“It took six officers to get him out,” Pitcher said.

Pitcher said Monday he did not know the motive for the attack. He released a probable cause affidavit that quoted another church member as saying that Cooper, in referring to McElroy, had told her, “He is the devil.”

Other witnesses told police that Cooper had gotten from a car, dropped to his knees and prayed in the middle of a street while en route to the church before the attack.

Cooper, a lifelong resident of Whiteland, has no criminal history and has been a member of the church for many years, Pitcher said.
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Source
 
Bullseye Said

How come these Christians can get away with it?, what if it was a Pagan/ Satanist/Jew/Muslim?.
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I must agree here. We have the Metropolitan Police out looking for imaginary Satanic Child Abuse while real organised child abuse went on and may still go on in children’s homes by carers and by priests (some of whom knew but covered it up, that’s “organised” in my book).

If a practising member of the Church of Satan took their own child and sacrificed it on an alter for the greater glory of Satan, would they be acquitted on grounds of insanity, or would this be the final proof that Satanists sacrifice their own children?

I also find some of the tales here very disturbing. It also says a lot about the taboos of mental illness when those closest to these people don’t seek help for their loved ones. An awful lot of misery can be avoided by speaking to those around you openly and in a supportive manner about their and your own mental health. Perhaps those in positions of religious power should start saying “Speaking to God is fine, God answering back should send you to your GP”.

I’m not normally one for PC language but to describe people in severe psychiatric distress as “wacko”-Emperor, or “nutcases”–Fallen Angel isn't moving society on very far in terms of acceptance of mental illness. I certainly doubt words like "wog" or "nigger" would be accepted on this forum.

"Most of the people in nut houses are religious because most Americans are religious," said Rodney Stark, a social sciences professor at Baylor University. "We know what causes schizophrenia and it isn't going to church. It's biochemical."
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Yes, Mr Stark, and the cause of bigotry is ignorance. I think the professorship should go back.
 
Re: RELIGIOSITY COMMON AMONG MOTHERS WHO KILL CHILDREN

RELIGIOSITY COMMON AMONG MOTHERS WHO KILL CHILDREN

"What isn't clear is what's causing what," she said. "Is the church causing people to develop these feelings or are people with these feelings more likely to gravitate toward a fundamentalist church?"
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I've made it clear in other posts that I can't tolerate Christian fundamentalism. However, I know of two fundamentalist preachers in my hometown, who have undergraduate degrees in either psychology or psychiatry (can't remember which, per case) in addition to theology or divinity degrees. I thought it was pretty common for preachers, priests, rabbis, etc. to at least minor in psychology or psychiatry, so they could effectively meet the needs of their congregation. I'll bet there are a lot of cases where a person was beginning to go psychotic, and a church or synogague or mosque or whatever leader stepped in and got them the help they needed. I know this thread is about Christians attacking . . . . but it's hard to speak in broad terms about religion & society without including other religions in the discussion. A good religious leader wants to look out for his or her congregation, and having a background in human behavioral sciences is, in my opinion, nessecary for anyone who wants to be an effective church leader. I mean, they could at least give out referrals. The problem arises, I think, when you have a church leader who 'rules' by charisma and ego only. There are plenty of foolish people willing to follow this type, and this type is never there for his or her congregation.

~ about all the times I've edited this post: I was having trouble quoting. :oops: I wasn't changing my opinion or anything ~
 
tzb57r said:
I’m not normally one for PC language but to describe people in severe psychiatric distress as “wacko”-Emperor, or “nutcases”–Fallen Angel isn't moving society on very far in terms of acceptance of mental illness. I certainly doubt words like "wog" or "nigger" would be accepted on this forum.
Click to expand...

That's a very extreme comparison, tzb57r. "Wacko" and "nutcases" are funny words. I think words like that are used to help leaven what is an oppressively morbid subject to the degree where people will still want to read and post . . . . at least that's my take on it. Those last two words you typed in quotation marks are words that denote racial hatred. The last one almost made me puke, but I'm sensitive about that one.
 
tzb57r said:
I’m not normally one for PC language but to describe people in severe psychiatric distress as “wacko”-Emperor, or “nutcases”–Fallen Angel isn't moving society on very far in terms of acceptance of mental illness. I certainly doubt words like "wog" or "nigger" would be accepted on this forum.
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A lot of what we deal with involves people who in some ways mentally challenged and if we were to stick use some kind of standardised formulation like "mentally challenged" when (as is often the case with breaking news) there is no direct diagnosis it would become cliched and come across as being sarcastic. As has been shown time and again the FTMBers are sensitive to people's mental health issues (moreso than most general message boards out there) and I hope people don't think we are being dimissive or insulting - if people do genuinely find these terms offensive then we can look into what terms are acceptable.

I certainly don't find either term you quoted as being comparable to "the n word".
 
tzb57r said:
"Most of the people in nut houses are religious because most Americans are religious," said Rodney Stark, a social sciences professor at Baylor University. "We know what causes schizophrenia and it isn't going to church. It's biochemical."
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Yes, Mr Stark, and the cause of bigotry is ignorance. I think the professorship should go back.
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You're both right . . . . except for that last sentence of yours, tzb57r, which is wrong. Why don't you like Professor Stark? He spoke the truth.
He wasn't advocating bigotry and ignorance, he was just saying that schizophrenia is biochemical. Personally, I know too many people who are barely functioning in the outside world; heavily medicated with anti-psychotics and the like. None of them has ever thought God told them to do anything. None of them was ever particularily religious. All of them are fighting off delusions of the more paranoid acid-trip variety. Guess why? Speaking from observation only ~ not in any way being an expert ~ it seems that when a person GOES NUTS, his or her delusions will take a familiar form.

EDIT ~ I just realized that your problem was with the phrase "nut houses", rather than the idea of schizophrenia being biochemical. Is that correct tzb57r? If so, I'm sorry for misunderstanding so badly. I really hope the phrase "booby hatch" dosen't fall out of favor. That's a good one . . . . . I think.
 
The explanation of his behavior is pretty odd!!

Devout atheist-slayer sentenced to jail

AFP , BRISBANE
Friday, Dec 24, 2004,Page 5


A devout Christian who killed a man and injured his wife in a frenzied axe attack after they told him they were atheists was jailed for 18 years in Australia yesterday.

Drifter Ashley John Appoo, 40, pleaded guilty in the Queensland state Supreme Court to manslaughter and causing grievous bodily harm.

The court heard Appoo was hitchhiking in November 2001 when John Leslie McDonald and his wife Alois picked him up and took him home for lunch.

He ended up staying two days at the couple's home in rural Queensland before Alois told him she and her husband were atheists.

Appoo began punching the woman, then turned on her husband when he tried to intervene.

The court was told Appoo then went outside, seized an axe and began attacking the couple, hitting John McDonald in the head and leg.

McDonald died from his injuries and his wife sustained fractures to her jaw, ribs and ankle and an axe wound to her leg.

Defense lawyers said Appoo had suffered from violent rages and a personality disorder since 1995 when he was hit on the head with a didgeridoo -- a long, tubular Aboriginal musical instrument.
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Key moment sin the Andrea Yates trial

Jan. 6, 2005 — A three-judge panel of the First Court of Appeals in Houston has overturned Texas mother Andrea Yates' capital murder convictions for the 2001 slayings of three of her children and ordered a new trial. In its ruling, the panel cited false testimony by key prosecution witness, psychiatrist Park Dietz, who was the only psychiatrist who testified at trial that Yates — who had a history of postpartum depression — was sane when she killed her children.

Here is a look at the Andrea Yates case:

The Killings

On June 20, 2001, Yates drowned her five children — Noah, 7, John, 5, Paul, 3, Luke, 2, and 6-month-old daughter Mary — in the bathtub of the family's suburban Houston home. She then placed the four youngest victims on a bed and covered them with a sheet. Yates left her oldest son's body floating face down in the bathtub. When her husband, Russell, called from work, Yates told him to come home. She then called police and told them she had just killed her children.

Yates told police and psychiatrists that Satan ordered her to kill her five children to save them from eternal damnation.

Yates' Trial and Conviction

In March 2002, Yates was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to life in prison in the deaths of three of her five children, Noah, John and Mary. She had confessed and pleaded guilty to killing her other two children, Paul and Luke.

The prosecution argued Yates was legally sane — meaning that she knew right from wrong — at the time of the slayings, while her defense argued she was insane. Experts agreed that Yates suffered from postpartum depression and schizophrenia, but defense and prosecution witnesses disagreed over how severe her illness was and whether it stopped her from knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Prosecutors had recommended the death penalty but ultimately the jury decided on a life sentence.

Pivotal Testimony and the Appeal

On April 30, 2004, Yates' attorney appealed her capital murder convictions, questioning the testimony of prosecution expert Park Dietz and challenging the constitutionality of Texas' insanity law.

Dietz, a psychiatrist, testified at trial that Yates knew killing her children was wrong. He said he based that conclusion in part on her belief that Satan, not God, had ordered the murders.

------------
Dietz also testified that Yates' attempts to hide her murder plans indicated she knew they were wrong. But Dietz incorrectly testified that an episode of the TV show "Law & Order" dealing with postpartum depression aired just before the killings. He said the episode portrayed a woman who drowned her children and was later found not guilty by reason of insanity. Producers from "Law & Order" called Yates' defense and said such an episode didn't exist. Yates' attorney called for a mistrial but his petition was denied. Prosecutors admit the "Law & Order" mistake, but say it was unintentional.

Yates and Her History of Mental Illness

Andrea Pia Kennedy was born July 2, 1964. She married Russell Yates in 1993.

Shortly before the killings, Yates had been at a hospital in League City, just outside Houston. At that point, she had struggled with postpartum depression for two years, since the birth of her fourth child, doctors say.

Two weeks after being released from the hospital, Yates killed her five children.

An assistant district attorney who helped prosecute the case has said more treatment probably would have prevented her from drowning the children.

In 2003, Yates was placed on suicide watch while in prison. At the time, her lawyer said Yates believed her dead children were in purgatory and only her death would free them.

In July 2004, Yates was hospitalized after refusing to eat.

Russell Yates

He filed for divorce from Andrea in August 2004.

He works at the Johnson Space Center.

In May 2004, he sold the three-bedroom house where the children were killed for $109,900.
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Her NNDB entry - with a much more glam photo.
 
Qns. Satanist catches Hell

BY TAMER EL-GHOBASHY, SCOTT SHIFREL and TONY SCLAFANI
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Wednesday, January 12th, 2005

A blue-haired, Satan-loving man was pummeled with a metal pipe by a pair of God-fearing thugs as he strolled down a quiet Queens street, authorities said yesterday.
"Yo, Satan!" the hoodlums screamed before unleashing a hellish attack on 20-year-old Daniel Romano in Maspeth on Sunday, cops said.

Paul Rotondi and Frank Scarpinito, both 18, allegedly pounced on Romano, who wears black nail polish and an inverted crucifix symbolizing his rejection of Jesus, as he walked to meet his mother at a laundermat.

"They spread rumors around the neighborhood that I eat babies and go down to the docks, pick up hookers and kill them," Romano told the Daily News. "Ignorance often costs a lot of people their lives."

Romano, who suffered a gash to his head and a few bruises, claimed to be a member of the Manhattan-based Church of Satan, a nonreligious group that has thousands of members. But the controversial group's head "priest" told The News that Romano was lying.

Nevertheless, prosecutors said Romano's satanic beliefs are enough to justify charging his alleged attackers with a hate crime.

"They attacked this guy because they believe him to be a Satan-worshiper," Queens Assistant District Attorney George Farrugia said outside court. "They've had it in for this kid."

NYPD investigators said Rotondi and Scarpinito harassed Romano for more than a month before hunting him down on 72nd St. about 2:30 p.m. Sunday.

Jumping out of a Volkswagen Jetta, the pair allegedly bashed Romano in the head with a pipe and beat him with an ice scraper.

Rotondi, who is home-schooled because he is claustrophobic, denied the charges to cops.

"You are going to find my prints on there," he told cops at the 104th Precinct stationhouse, referring to the pipe. But then he insisted, "I did not hit anyone with it," authorities said.

Rotondi and Scarpinito, both of Queens, were arraigned on charges of second-degree assault as a hate crime. The teens pleaded not guilty and were being held on $5,000 bail.

They face up to 15 years in prison, if convicted.

After the hearing, Rotondi's attorney, Sean McNicholas, ridiculed the hate crime charges.

"This is an abuse of the hate crime law," he said. "What's next - the nerds, the preppies ...? Where are you going to draw the line?"

Safe inside his mom's Middle Village home, Romano said he will continue studying "The Satanic Bible" and hopes to become a leader in the Church of Satan.

But Peter Gilmore, head priest of the Church of Satan, wants nothing to do with Romano. "He's totally lying and he's just pulling the police's leg," said Gilmore, adding that his church promotes individual power and does not advocate breaking the law.

"We generally laugh at people who walk around with black nail polish," he said.


THE DEVIL'S TRADEMARKS


* Inverted or upside-down cross necklace symbolizes a rejection of Jesus and Christianity.

* Pentagram ring adorned with image of goat's head inside five points, known as a baphomet, is symbol of Satanism.

* The black fingernails are a gothic fashion statement.
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New York Daily News
 
More on that - I do enjoy the "Grrrrr I'm a Satanist!!!"-type talk:

Beating of Queens Satanist Prompts Hate Crime Charges

By COREY KILGANNON

Published: January 12, 2005

Ever since he was 12, Daniel Romano has cut a noticeable figure around Middle Village, a working class part of Queens. Mr. Romano, 20, who calls himself a Satanist, stands out, with his blue-tinted bouffant hairdo, his black clothing and fingernails, and the prominent crucifix, worn upside down.

Mr. Romano has long been teased for dressing like a "gothic kid" or simply a "goth," in a community with small homes, neat lawns and populated with many Roman Catholics.

But in recent weeks, two local teenagers began fixating on Mr. Romano, calling him names including "Satan worshiper," "baby sacrificer" and "hooker killer," the authorities say. On Sunday the verbal harassment turned into violence.

Mr. Romano, while walking on 72nd Street in Maspeth, was attacked by the two teenagers, the authorities say. Yesterday the Queens district attorney, Richard A. Brown, announced that the young men, Paul C. Rotondi and Frank M. Scarpinito, both 18 and from Middle Village, would be charged with hate crimes, which carry harsher penalties and are usually leveled when an attack involves a victim's ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.

Prosecutors say they attacked Mr. Romano because of his religious beliefs: They thought he worshiped Satan. They were arraigned yesterday on charges of second-degree assault as a hate crime, possession of a weapon and aggravated harassment. The charges could carry prison terms of up to 15 years.

About 2 p.m. on Sunday, prosecutors say, the teenagers pulled up in a car and one yelled to Mr. Romano, "Hey, Satan!"

The authorities said that both defendants then attacked Mr. Romano - Mr. Rotondi using a metal club, and Mr. Scarpinito wielding an ice scraper. Mr. Romano was taken to Elmhurst Hospital Center, where he received 12 stitches. On Monday, he filed a complaint with police officers, who arrested the two youths.

At their arraignment yesterday, prosecutors asked that they be held in $75,000 bail, but a judge set it at $5,000 and they were released. An assistant district attorney, George J. Farrugia, said the defendants believed that Mr. Romano worshiped Satan and "over the last month and a half, they have had it in for this kid, and have been abusive."

Mr. Scarpinito's lawyer, Richard Leff, called the charges "an abuse of the hate crime status," and said his client had never been in trouble. Mr. Rotondi's lawyer, Sean A. McNicholas, said prosecutors were calling this a hate crime because of "politics and press."

"The kid is gothic with blue hair: He falls into a category of kid," Mr. McNicholas said. "At worst, this is a simple dispute between kids, not an attack on a minority."

"If the accusation was that he was black or Asian or Latino or Jewish, it's one thing," he said. "They see this as a religious practice. It's a dispute between kids, the same way you have the nerds, the jocks, the artsy kids and the teacher's pets. What's next? Someone being accused of attacking a preppie, or a nerd?"

In an interview last night at his apartment, which he shares with his mother, Mr. Romano said that he was raised Catholic but is now a Satanist. A hard rock musician, he attended Talent Unlimited High School in Manhattan and leads a band.

Mr. Romano said he was working at a bagel store last summer when Mr. Scarpinito, who worked next door at a hardware store, began making fun of him.

"My allegiance is to Satan and I hate Christianity, Judaism and Islam, but I don't hurt anyone," Mr. Romano said. "I take out my anger in mosh pits and S-and-M clubs. I think it's ironic that the Christians got violent with the Satanist."

His mother, Debbie Romano, 48, said, "I'm a Christian, but he went the other way; I don't understand his beliefs, but he doesn't hurt nobody."
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