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Mad For God: When Christians Attack

I've never been a big fan of hate crime legislation. Assault is assault. They all should be dealt with in the same way. The sort of crimes that get labelled as hate crimes tend to be more violent, and so should be treated accordingly, but they shouldn't be labelled as a special class of crime.

Let's look at the above. One of the defendants' lawyers says this is just a dispute between kids. A dispute between kids that involved a metal club and an ice scraper. I don't agree with the hate crime category, but this was assault with deadly weapons, surely. Five thousand dollars as bail is laughable. If I were leading the prosecution, I'd skip motive and focus on the attack itself. Labelling it a hate crime, and trying to get sympathy as a Satanist could well help the defense.

I can't wait for the Law & Order episode.

Of course the reason that there is Hate Crime legislation is because, for some unknown reason, people who commit some crimes against certain minority groups - like Assault with a Deadly Weapon - seem to get off with a caution.
 
Fallen Angel said:
Just playing God's advocate, here, but hey, the bible does warn against false prophets doing the work of Satan. IMO this sort of thing definitely qualifies!

That is exactly the kind of attitude that x-tians use to escape responsibilities. "If I do right, its god, if I do wrong its Satan."
Shame though that more crimes are done in gods name than in Satans. Also as it has been said, if "Satanists" (or in this case Devil-worshippers) go round murdering people they are just stuck into prison.
Both parties obviously suffer from exactly the same dilusion just with a different name attached to it?!
Oh and any party that goes and kills in their "Lords" name also hasn't understood anything about their religion/belief and therefore should not be able to calim to "belong" to either group.
 
Mother Pleads Guilty In Interstate Strangling Of Daughter

Police: Woman Asked Colorado Man For Razor Blades

POSTED: 2:10 pm MST February 23, 2005

MOAB, Utah -- A Utah woman accused of asking a Colorado motorist for razor blades after strangling her own daughter has pleaded guilty to a reduced count.

Police say Wendy Bullock injured herself before her arrest in her daughters death.

Wendy Bullock, 29, was charged with second-degree child abuse homicide in the toddler's January 2004 death. But Bullock reached an agreement with prosecutors to plead guilty to child abuse homicide while mentally ill.

Police said she drove into a pullout alongside Interstate 70 on New Year's Day, then asked a Colorado man in another car if he had any razor blades, because she planned to commit suicide. The man noticed that Bullock was injured and saw an unresponsive child in her car so he called police. Officers arrived to find the body of 2½-year-old Sarah Pollyanne in the back seat.

According to police, Bullock admitted strangling her daughter after they pulled off the Interstate to sleep. She said she was convinced that God wanted them to die. She stabbed herself in the eye with a sharp object and stuck a pencil in her ear before asking the Colorado motorist for razor blades.

Bullock, who was described as "the girl next door" by her attorney, will be evaluated at a state mental hospital before a judge decides whether she should remain there or be sent to prison.


----------------------
Copyright 2005 by TheDenverChannel.com.

Source
 
A grim story - the sensitive should look away now.

Court relives bizarre killings

R. Jonathan Tuleya, Staff Writer
03/20/2005

The story of Richard L. Greist remains frightening and bizarre nearly 27 years after the East Coventry man killed his pregnant wife, mutilated his unborn son and attacked his two daughters and grandmother.

This week in a Chester County courtroom, those events were relived as Greist made another appeal to be released from Norristown State Mental Hospital.

Greist, who was found not guilty of the killings by reason of insanity, makes a plea for his freedom every year at his recommitment hearing, but Wednesday, the proceedings were different.

Greist, 53, spoke publicly for the first time at the hearing. His two daughters testified for the first time, too, sparing few details of the gruesome attacks that occurred May 10, 1978, inside their Sanatoga Road home.

"The horror of watching him stab, kick and punch my family will forever be etched in my mind," said Angela Dykie, Greist’s younger daughter.

Dykie, who was 5 at the time of the attack, recalled being picked up by her father thrown across the room. She also watched as Greist lifted her older sister, now Elizabeth A. Butts, by her feet and repeatedly pounded her head onto the floor, then "dropped her like a rag doll."

"He came at me like a wild animal," said Dykie, now 31. "He had fiery orange and green swirling eyes. They were empty and the most evil thing I’ve ever seen."

Dykie told the court as she cried uncontrollably that she escaped the house to her aunt’s home across the street, where she waited, getting lost among the chaos.

Then she spoke about visiting her sister in the hospital, where she saw "a little bundle of bandages from head to toe," and screaming so loudly the nurses forbade her from returning to the room.

"We saw evil in the face that May day," Dykie said, "and how do we know it won’t come back?"

"I see in the mirror everyday, the aftermath of that day," said Elizabeth A. Butts.

She lost her left eye as a result of the attack. She was 6 at the time.

"I’ve worked so hard over the years to make my life as happy and normal as possible," said Butts, now 32. She told Common Pleas Court Judge Edward Griffith she hoped her father would not be released from the hospital -- "not now or ever.

"I wish my father no harm," Butts said. "I don’t believe he intentionally harmed me or my family. That’s what is so scary. It wasn’t intentional."

The psychiatrists who have examined Greist say the killings were the result of a psychotic break. Initially he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, but therapists have since changed that diagnosis and conclude Greist suffers from a personality disorder.

Dr. Sudhir Stokes, the psychiatrist in charge of Greist’s care at Norristown, said his patient "was slipping" prior to attacks.

"He may not have been aware of it," Stokes said. "Those around him may have been aware of it, but they didn’t act on it."

Greist was 27 at the time, working at a health facility for mentally retarded individuals.

Dr. Barbara E. Ziv, a psychiatrist hired by the state, testified Wednesday that sleep deprivation, use of amphetamines and extramarital affairs Greist was having were additional stresses contributing to the psychotic break.

During Greist’s trial in 1980, psychiatrists testified the man believed he was an incarnation of Jesus Christ and thought he was killing devils during the rampage against his family.

Greist, a tall, slender man, was dressed in a tan suit, white shirt and tan-striped tie for his hearing before Judge Griffith. He seemed to listen to the testimony, occasionally passing notes to his lawyer, Marita M. Hutchinson, shuffling through stacks of papers, and putting on and removing black-rimmed reading glasses.

When he spoke, his voice was timid and he stopped several times to choke back tears.

"If my family could see the tears I’ve cried. I am still crying," Greist said. "Why have I allowed this to happen?"

The court heard about one of the newest chapters in Greist’s life, his marriage to his wife Frances M. Greist, 46, of New Zealand, on Nov. 29 -- Greist’s third wife.

The couple met through a Jehovah’s Witness Web site in June 2004. Richard became a member of the church during his stay at Norristown State Hospital; Frances, who worked tutoring math skills to adults, joined the religion shortly after her husband of 17 years left her.

"He decided he found the neighbor’s daughter more attractive than me," she said.

Frances testified she was initially attracted to the killer because of the number of Bible studies he had organized.

"I didn’t know at the time he was locked up," she said, but added that Greist was forthright about his past. "He gave me Web sites to look at. He gave me everything that was out there."

Assistant District Attorney Peter Hobart probed the issue.

"Did he tell you what happened to his wife?" Hobart asked.

"Yes, he did," she said.

"Did he tell you what happened to the baby?" the attorney said.

"Yes, but he was trying to save the baby," Frances Greist said. "In his mind he was trying to save the baby."

"Did he tell you what he did to the bodies?" Hobart continued.

"I’m not sure," Frances replied.


Throughout the summer, Richard Greist and Frances’ relationship progressed from the Internet to the telephone, and the couple began spending thousands of dollars on phone calls, talking between two and eight hours daily. At the same time, Richard Greist’s friends wrote Frances flattering letters on his behalf.

"He’s a darling," Frances testified. "I came to check him out. I wanted to see if he was all that I had heard."

Frances arrived in Norristown on Nov. 11. The couple married 18 days later in the office of Montgomery County District Justice Francis Lawrence Jr.; the bride sporting a 1.5-carat diamond ring Richard purchased via the Internet. None of Frances’ three adult sons attended the ceremony nor did any other any other family members of the bride or groom.

Frances Greist lives in Norristown and told the court she is supported largely by the income Richard Greist collects through the two rental properties he owns there. She also earns some money through a vacation retreat she leases in New Zealand.

The husband and wife have seen each other all but three or four days together since their wedding, Frances said, spending most of their time together at the hospital’s cafeteria where Richard Greist works as manager. He mans the cash register while Frances Greist said she spread the word of Jehovah to patients.

They dream of moving to New Zealand, Frances said, if Richard Greist is ever released from the mental hospital. And if he remains committed, she intends to stay by his side.

"I am married to my husband, and I love him dearly," Frances said. "I will be here as long as it takes."

Greist married his second wife, Patricia, 14 years ago. A year after they married, she committed suicide.

----------------
©Daily Local News 2005

Source
 
Accused says God told him to kill

Daryl Slade
Calgary Herald

Tuesday, April 12, 2005


God told Tesluojch Liem (Tes) Kandong to kill his eight-year-old nephew because the boy was practising black magic on him and had given him a runny nose, a second-degree murder trial was told Monday.

Kandong, a diagnosed schizophrenic who says his mind was being controlled at the time, spoke in a rambling, unemotional manner about how Bomkoth Deng died last July 17.

The 21-year-old man told his lawyer, Mark Takada, and Crown prosecutor Jonathan Hak how he lured the boy upstairs at his sister's Deerfield Villas S.E. home and drowned him.

"God told me to hurt this boy so I could go to court," Kandong told Takada. "He said, 'I can't judge that case. Go to your leaders and they will judge you.'

"It was not my will to do it. I got angry."

When queried who the leaders were, he said the judges.

Kandong is charged with second-degree murder, but his lawyer is trying to prove he is not criminally responsible because of a mental disorder.

The accused admitted he never had any verbal or physical differences with the boy.

He said he had been hearing voices since shortly after he moved from Sudan to Winnipeg in July 2001 and later to Calgary to live with his sister, Nyakong Pal.

The most recurring voice at that time, he said, was an African magician who was "critical" of him and "threatening" to him.

Asked in cross-examination by Hak why God had told him to kill the boy, he replied: "because I had been accused (by voices), he told me to kill."

Hak then asked him if Bomkoth deserved to die. He said, matter-of-factly: "It was not my responsibility. God was telling me to do it."

Kandong said he did not plan the killing, though.

It was only five minutes ahead of time, when his sister Nyakong was not home, that he had filled the upstairs tub with water and told Bomkoth to go upstairs to see something.

"He didn't want to come at first, then he changed his mind," said Kandong. "I held his head under the water."

Kandong admitted he had been hospitalized once in Winnipeg and twice in Calgary for stretches of four to six weeks.

He had been taking medication in pill form until shortly before the boy's death, when he was switched to bi-weekly injections.

Under cross-examination by Hak, Kandong agreed he heard voices only when he stopped taking his medicine.

He received his last injection July 2 and was scheduled for his next one on July 12, then July 16, but did not show up at the clinic.

On the day before Bomkoth was killed, Kandong said he heard an announcer on a local radio station directly tell him not to go to the clinic for his scheduled shot. So he didn't go.

The trial before Court of Queen's Bench Justice Carolyn Phillips continues on Thursday.

Source
 
Eric Rudolph Reveals Motives for Bombings

Thu Apr 14, 9:55 AM ET


By DOUG GROSS, Associated Press Writer

ATLANTA - During a two-year series of bombings in the Deep South, Eric Rudolph considered himself a warrior — against abortion, which he calls murder, and a government that permits it.


A sometimes-rambling, sometimes-reflective 11-page manifesto released by Rudolph's attorneys Wednesday soon after he entered his last guilty plea in the bombings gave the most detailed look yet into the mind of the former Army explosives expert who killed two people and injured more than 120 others.

Rudolph pleaded guilty in federal court to the deadly 1996 Olympic park bombing in Atlanta and attacks at two abortion clinics and a gay nightclub.

He was sentenced to four life sentences without parole, escaping the death penalty by telling authorities the whereabouts of hundreds of pounds of dynamite and other explosives he stashed while hiding in the North Carolina mountains for five years.

In the statement, Rudolph said stopping abortion — "this holocaust," he called it — was his main motive. Any agent of a government that allows it, he reasoned, is an enemy that deserves death.

He also apologized to his victims who don't work for the government or perform abortions, rejected virtually every theory about his motives laid out over the years, and spelled out the strategies, techniques and, ultimately, failures involved in his attacks.

Among the information: that the Olympic bombing was intended to be part of a weeklong campaign of explosions aimed at shutting down the games and embarrassing the U.S. government.

Rebutting claims that his anti-government views were shaped by racism, his family or involvement in the extreme fundamentalist Christian Identity movement, Rudolph called himself a Roman Catholic at war over abortion.

"Because I believe that abortion is murder, I also believe that force is justified ... in an attempt to stop it," he wrote, "whether these agents of the government are armed or otherwise they are legitimate targets in the war to end this holocaust."

In the Atlanta courtroom, he sat stone-faced and answered questions calmly and politely. But in Birmingham, he winked toward prosecutors as he entered court, said the government could "just barely" prove its case, and admitted his guilt with a hint of pride in his voice.

Emily Lyons, who lost an eye — and nearly her life — in the Birmingham clinic attack, wept and said she was almost physically ill as she watched in court from her front-row seat.

"He just sounded so proud of it. That's what really hurt," she said.

Rudolph showed no remorse for the death of Robert Sanderson, a security guard killed in the Birmingham blast that maimed Lyons. "Every employee is a knowing participant in this gruesome trade," he wrote.

But he apologized to "innocent civilians" and their families wounded in attacks like the Centennial Park bombing — an operation he said he botched.

Rudolph, 38, wrote that the purpose of the Olympic bombing "was to confound, anger and embarrass the Washington government in the eyes of the world for its abominable sanctioning of abortion on demand."

He originally hoped to obtain high-grade explosives and knock out the power grid around Atlanta, ending the games. When that failed, he planned a series of five bombings over several days. He said he wanted to make phone calls well before each explosion, "leaving only uniformed arms-carrying government personnel exposed to potential injury."

The bomb that exploded at the Olympics was hidden in a knapsack and sent nails and screws ripping through a crowd at Centennial Olympic Park during a concert. Alice Hawthorne, 44, was killed and 111 other people were wounded in what proved to be Rudolph's most notorious attack.

Rudolph wrote that a 911 call meant to warn authorities about the bomb was cut short, possibly because a plastic device he used to disguise his voice made him hard to understand. He himself cut a second call short because he thought people standing near the phone booth he was using were becoming suspicious.

"I had sincerely hoped to achieve these objections (sic) without harming innocent civilians," he said. "There is no excuse for this, and I accept full responsibility for the consequences of using this dangerous tactic."

Rudolph also called homosexuality an "aberrant sexual behavior" and blasted what he called the government's acceptance of it. But he wrote that a pair of bombs planted at The Otherside Lounge, an Atlanta club that catered to a gay and lesbian clientele, targeted law enforcement, not the club's patrons.

In a postscript to his statement, Rudolph belittled, in sometimes mocking tones, theories that have swirled for years about his possible motives.

He denied any allegiance to the racist, anti-Semitic, anti-gay Christian Identity movement, saying he attended an Identity church for about six months in the early 1980s only because the father of a woman he was dating went there.

"I was born a Catholic, and with forgiveness I hope to die one," he wrote.

He dismissed reports that he turned against the government when his father, suffering from cancer, sought an experimental drug not approved by the Food and Drug Administration. And he admitted to growing a small amount of marijuana in the early '90s, but turned sarcastic about claims he was a major dealer.

"Yes, this is why I was living in a trailer paying $275 a month for rent," he wrote. "Big time drug dealer, that's me."

Deborah Rudolph, Rudolph's former sister-in-law whom he criticized in the statement, noted the irony of Rudolph's plea deal putting him in custody of a government he hates.

"Knowing that he's living under government control for the rest of his life, I think that's worse to him than death," she said from her home in Nashville, Tenn.

Source
 
A friend just emailed me this which is distilled from a story in my pathetic local rag (the Buxton Advertiser)

A man who brandished a knife around while trying to rob a terrified pizza shop worker has failed to win a cut in his jail term.

Peter Dominic Bell attempted the robbery nine days after using another man's bank card to withdraw £100 so he could go to Scarborough to attend a "Share Jesus" international event.

I'm not sure the paper has a website, in fact they probably still think steam power and horseless carriages are an abomination, so I'm afraid I can't magic up a source just yet, but I'll keep looking.

Its not quite on a par with my all time favourite story from the same newspaper a few years ago, which concerned a local man who had been arrested outside a chip-shop for waving a sausage "in a threatening manner" at a policeman.
 
'Abusive' nun barred from flight

A woman claiming to be a Franciscan nun has twice been barred from boarding a flight from Shetland to Aberdeen.
Sister Ruth Augustus said that British Airways would not allow her to fly because she was carrying a two foot statue of the Virgin Mary.

But BA said the nun, 64, was grounded because she was abusive to staff.

Sister Augustus has been travelling around Shetland for five days. The isles are the latest stop in her world tour to spread the Christian faith.

The nun now faces a choppy 12-hour journey by sea to Aberdeen.

Speaking about the incident, Sister Augustus told BBC Scotland: "When they said I couldn't take the statue on the plane I said I'm reporting you and it's disgraceful behaviour.

"I don't call that rude, I call it self-defence against a tremendous, unjust and cruel treatment which is disgraceful."


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/s ... 589897.stm
Published: 2005/05/28 17:23:32 GMT

© BBC MMV
 
Killer of 'devil' sentenced to 25-45 years

Victim said he didn't believe in God, so his friend shot him

December 29, 2005



BY JOEL THURTELL



It was one of the five "most heinous" crimes Wayne County Circuit Judge Gregory Bill has ever seen.

Wayne County Assistant Prosecutor Christina Guirguis called it the "most gruesome" crime she's ever prosecuted.

On Dec. 20, Bill sentenced Arthur Eugene Shelton, 51, of Taylor to 25 to 45 years in prison for the Oct. 18, 2004, shotgun and revolver killing of Shelton's friend, Larry Hooper.

"He blew the guy's head off," said Shelton's attorney, Seymour Schwartz.

Following a three-day bench trial, Bill found Shelton guilty Nov. 30 of second-degree murder for killing Hooper in the living room of his Taylor home, where Hooper was staying.

At 12:44 p.m. that October day, Shelton called Taylor police and told a dispatcher that he'd just blasted a man with a revolver and a shotgun because the man said he didn't believe in God.

The dead man was "the devil himself," Shelton told the dispatcher.

How many times did you shoot him? the dispatcher asked Shelton.

"Hopefully, enough," replied Shelton. "I want to make sure he's gone."


Shelton fired four or five revolver bullets and at least three shotgun blasts into 62-year-old Hooper's head, Guirguis said.

"This is a sort of victory," Schwartz said of the sentence. The judge could have sentenced Shelton to life in prison. At 51, Shelton will be 76 when he gets out of prison -- if he's released after 25 years. He could be held for the full 45 years, Schwartz said.

In addition, Bill sentenced Shelton to two years in prison for his conviction on a charge of using a firearm during the commission of a felony. The two-year sentence, minus time served awaiting trial, must be served first.

Before the shooting, Hooper had told Shelton that Shelton couldn't say anything to convince him to believe in God, according to police

Shelton left the room, took off his shirt, shaved his face and tried again to convince Hooper there is a God. But at that point, Shelton had a 12-gauge shotgun.

"How long would it take you to believe in God?" Shelton said he asked Hooper.

"Not until I hear Gabriel blow his horn," replied Hooper.

Hooper tipped his hat and Shelton fired the shotgun at Hooper's head.

"I did it because he is evil; he was not a believer," Shelton said.

Later, Shelton told cops he might have second thoughts about the existence of God. "Maybe there's not" a God, he said.


But in his house that day, police could not persuade Shelton to come out the front door. He didn't want to pass Hooper's body because Hooper's "evil soul" might jump into him, Shelton later said, according to Schwartz.

Bill found him guilty of second-degree murder but mentally ill, Guirguis said.

Schwartz said religion wasn't the motive for the shooting.

"Shelton was a nut," said Schwartz.

www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID ... /512290458
 
Oh boy:

Death sentence for 'Antichrist' killer

Defendant: Talking bull told him to shoot retired cop

Thursday, January 12, 2006; Posted: 11:04 a.m. EST (16:04 GMT)


PENSACOLA, Florida (AP) -- A man who claimed he killed a retired police officer because he thought the "A" on the victim's University of Alabama baseball cap meant he was the Antichrist has been sentenced to death.

In addition to the death sentence, Ryan Thomas Green, 22, was given two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole for the attempted murder and robbery of a house painter, who was shot and now uses a wheelchair.

Green apologized at his sentencing hearing Wednesday to the families of the former officer, James Hallman, who was shot to death February 23, 2003, and the house painter, Christopher Phipps.

"From the bottom of my heart, I am truly sorry," Green said.

The jury that found Green guilty in October recommended 10-2 that he be put to death. In Florida, the death verdict does not have to be unanimous. The death sentence will be appealed automatically.

Green had testified during the trial that a talking bull, religious signs, colors and symbols influenced him to shoot Hallman.

He was initially declared mentally incompetent but underwent treatment and was later was found competent for trial. He also had received treatment at a mental health facility before the shootings.

His relatives said Wednesday that sentencing a mentally ill person to death was cruel and inhumane.

"The family did everything we could to get him help and protect him from himself. Ryan has felt a lot of remorse and guilt over this, and we truly believe that he was not in his right mind," said his mother, Cynthia. "I am very sorry that this has happened. But our family has been ripped apart as well."

Hallman's son the death sentence was proper.

"I will feel closure when I watch his last breath, just like he forced us to watch my father's last breath," said James Hallman III.

--------------
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.

www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/12/antichrist.k ... index.html

Now I'm not expert but that guy sounds completely nuts.
 
Husband: Wife Wanted to Give Baby to God

By JULIA GLICK
The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 14, 2006; 10:37 PM

McKINNEY, Texas -- A woman accused of killing her infant daughter by cutting off the girl's arms had said a few days earlier that she wanted to "give the baby to God," her husband testified Tuesday.

Dena Schlosser, 37, was leaving church about a week before the girl's November 2004 death when she also said she wanted to give Maggie to pastor Doyle Davidson, John Schlosser said.

"She said, 'I want to give the baby to Doyle.' She said 'I want to give the baby to God,'" said John Schlosser, who has filed for divorce.

He also testified at his wife's murder trial that she showed other disturbing behavior following Maggie's birth _ including cutting her own wrists with scissors _ but that he didn't worry too much or take her to counseling. John Schlosser said she had had bouts with depression after the birth of their other two daughters.

The defense, which has entered a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, questioned John Schlosser about how he responded to his wife's behavior.

"You never called authorities," defense attorney William Schultz said on cross-examination, suggesting that John Schlosser didn't want others involved in his family's personal business.

John Schlosser said it didn't occur to him to seek treatment for his wife. He said he wasn't alarmed by Dena Schlosser saying she wanted to give their baby to God because she acted normally after he calmed her down.

Prosecutors, who are not seeking the death penalty, showed the jury autopsy photos of Maggie's body and rested their case after two days of testimony.

Dena Schlosser was arrested in 2004 after she told a 911 operator she had severed her baby's arms. Police found her in the living room, covered in blood, still holding a knife.

On Monday, she slumped forward and stared at her hands as prosecutors played jurors the recording of the 911 call.

"Exactly what happened?" 911 operator Steve Edwards asked.

"I cut her arms off," Dena Schlosser replied as a gospel song played in the background.

After her arrest, Dena Schlosser was diagnosed with manic depression. In February 2005, a jury deliberated only a few minutes before deciding she was mentally incompetent to stand trial and she was committed to North Texas State Hospital. But in May, a judge decided she was competent.

Her two surviving daughters, ages 6 and 9, are in their father's custody.

Dena Schlosser had been accused of child neglect in the months before Margaret's death, but a state investigation found she did not pose a risk to the 10-month-old or her other two daughters.

Texas' troubled Child Protective Services came under intense scrutiny after a number of high-profile child abuse deaths, including the Schlosser case.

The Health and Human Services Commission, which oversees CPS, laid out more than 160 recommendations last year to overhaul the agency.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/a ... 00249.html
 
When Christian's Attack?

Slightly broad brush title for a thread, no?
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
ghostdog19 said:
When Christian's Attack?

Slightly broad brush title for a thread, no?
I like it. It's... punchy! :)

"When Mentally Disturbed Christians Attack Because God Told Them To Do So Or They Thought Someone Was The Devil"

just doesn't have the same ring to it. And that apostrophe throws the whole thing off.
 
Mighty_Emperor said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
ghostdog19 said:
When Christian's Attack?

Slightly broad brush title for a thread, no?
I like it. It's... punchy! :)

"When Mentally Disturbed Christians Attack Because God Told Them To Do So Or They Thought Someone Was The Devil"

just doesn't have the same ring to it. And that apostrophe throws the whole thing off.
Yeah. your overly long alternative really proves your point (little bit of sarcasm straight back atcha) but smart answers aside.... I just think it might be deemed a little 'offensive' or perhaps even a little inconsiderate in the same way it would be offensive if you have a thread title called "When Muslims attack", "African American's attack" or, "when homosexuals attack." The title gives off the false impression that the actions of the few reflect the intensions of the many. If you felt "when mentally disturbed christians attack because god told them to do so or they thought someone was the devil" I might suggest "God told me to do it" or "On a mission from God". I mean, it surely doesn't require THAT much imagination does it?

IMHO.
 
ghostdog19 said:
Mighty_Emperor said:
...

"When Mentally Disturbed Christians Attack Because God Told Them To Do So Or They Thought Someone Was The Devil"

just doesn't have the same ring to it. And that apostrophe throws the whole thing off.
Yeah. your overly long alternative really proves your point (little bit of sarcasm straight back atcha) but smart answers aside.... I just think it might be deemed a little 'offensive' or perhaps even a little inconsiderate in the same way it would be offensive if you have a thread title called "When Muslims attack", "African American's attack" or, "when homosexuals attack." The title gives off the false impression that the actions of the few reflect the intensions of the many. If you felt "when mentally disturbed christians attack because god told them to do so or they thought someone was the devil" I might suggest "God told me to do it" or "On a mission from God". I mean, it surely doesn't require THAT much imagination does it?

IMHO.
The significant thing about Christians is the very fact that they are supposed to be peacable, 'turn the other cheek', types. Something that they share with Buddhists. This cannot really be said about Muslims, since there is a martial element to their core beliefs.

So when Christians are driven to attack others, through circumstances connected with their beliefs, this could be seen as something unusual enough to be worthy of note. Hence the title.

A Thread title like, 'When Buddhists Attack!' would also depend on such a perceived incongruity between beliefs and actions.

Being 'African American', or 'homosexual', does not depend upon a belief system that eschews violence and so such titles as Ghostdog19 suggests would not make the same connection.

... ... ...

What about 'When Deranged Christians Attack!'? :)
 
bottom line; I was talking about groups being tarred with the same brush
Pietro_Mercurios said:
What about 'When Deranged Christians Attack!'? :)
yeah, that works better since it then isolates within the minority and makes a clearer definition that you're not talking about ALL Christians. Works on the same level as "When fundamentalist muslims attack". Clear defintion isn't too much to ask.
 
ghostdog19 said:
I just think it might be deemed a little 'offensive' or perhaps even a little inconsiderate in the same way it would be offensive if you have a thread title called "When Muslims attack", "African American's attack" or, "when homosexuals attack."
I agree and I've often been tempted to start a "When Muslims Attack" thread, just to see the reaction. :twisted:
 
Now THAT'S a catchy title . NOW, it does exactly what it says on the tin:) I knew you guys could do it if you put your minds to it. Now it's more likely you're going to get people posting who wouldn't have posted before.
 
ghostdog19 said:
bottom line; I was talking about groups being tarred with the same brush
Pietro_Mercurios said:
What about 'When Deranged Christians Attack!'? :)
yeah, that works better since it then isolates within the minority and makes a clearer definition that you're not talking about ALL Christians. Works on the same level as "When fundamentalist muslims attack". Clear defintion isn't too much to ask.

OK name changed.

The thread ha d a complicated birth as I called it "God made me kill" (or some such) but then posts from Occult Deaths was split off and merged and it didn't quite work so it was changed again.

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Pietro_Mercurios said:
A Thread title like, 'When Buddhists Attack!' would also depend on such a perceived incongruity between beliefs and actions.

Well....... in the thread naming hierachy, variations on "When Insects/Sharks/Animals/Hats Attack" is trumped by alliteration (which in turn is trumped by puns):

www.wunderkabinett.co.uk/emporium/index.php?topic=410.0

;)
 
did he say 'trump'?

:lol:

okay, back on topic and back to business....
 
Mighty_Emperor said:
The thread ha d a complicated birth..
So not what you'd call an immaculate conception then? :rofl:

*Ahem*

*collects coat*


Cheers for name change
 
OK back to the topic:

Feb. 15, 2006, 10:21PM

Pastor blames demons, not mental illness

Defense accuses him, husband of downplaying Plano mom's behavior

By THOMAS KOROSEC
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

MCKINNEY - The pastor of a charismatic Christian church attended by the Plano mother on trial, accused of fatally cutting off the arms of her 10-month-old daughter, told jurors Wednesday that mental illness is really demon possession that cannot be cured with psychiatry or medicine.

"I do not believe that any mental illness exists other than demons, and no medication can straighten it out, other than the power of God," said Doyle Davidson, the 73-year-old minister of the Water of Life Church that Dena and John Schlosser attended several times a week.

Dena Schlosser, 37, is on trial for capital murder in the slaying of her daughter Margaret in November 2004.

She has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

Schlosser was arrested after police, responding to a 911 call, found her in the living room of her apartment, blood smeared on her face and clothes, a Christian hymn playing and a Bible open near the crib where the child was killed.

Defense lawyers have faulted her husband and Davidson for downplaying her strange behavior and cutting short treatment of a psychotic condition that began after the birth of her third child in January 2004.

John Schlosser testified Tuesday that he did not seek medical help when his wife told him she wanted to "give the baby to God" about a week before their daughter's death.

Davidson said he hardly knew the family, although John Schlosser testified earlier that he and his wife talked with Davidson days before the attack and that the pastor was the first person he called after it.

"I talked with him maybe three times, I don't remember what about," Davidson said.

Davidson also testified that he has cast demons out of parishioners and seen evil spirits, including one that was 6 feet tall with a long tail. The former veterinarian, who has no formal religious training, has a cable TV show in the Dallas area and several states.

The Rev. Kathryn Self, another defense witness, called the beliefs of Davidson's church outside mainstream Christianity.

In the week leading up to the slaying, Dena Schlosser had expressed concern that Davidson was being persecuted by police regarding an incident in September 2004 in which he was arrested and accused of public intoxication, her husband testified Tuesday.

A police report states the pastor was in the home of another married member of his congregation, sitting on top of her and trying to choke out evil spirits.

Davidson told jurors that God had pledged the woman to him and that demons were keeping them apart, but he denied he was drunk or was trying to choke her.

Also Wednesday, three Plano police officers testified that Schlosser repeatedly chanted, "Thank you Jesus, thank you Lord" in the hours after her arrest. Plano police officer Sean White said the chant varied from soft to loud, and once Schlosser seemed to turn purple and pass out. Another officer testified he heard her making guttural, growling sounds as she waited to be treated for an apparently self-inflicted knife wound to her shoulder.

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3663101.html
 
ghostdog19 said:
Mighty_Emperor said:
OK back to the topic:=

What are your thoughts on the article you posted, Emperor?

I think its all jolly sad.

I'm afraid that you find mental illness getting defined as divine/demonic all over the place (see the exorcisms thread as well as the occult deaths and the witch killers threads) but it is unhelpful and one wonders if it had been correctly indentified and if some kind of intervention had taken place, then would all these events have come to pass.

I also think its interesting that it oddly feeds into their beliefs - they thought she was possessed and her killing her child has pretty much confirmed their suspicions.

So what are your thoughts?
 
It's a wide net.

I think when we look back at stuff like Salem and consider epileptic seizures, or what we understand now to be epileptic seizures, was then considered demonic possession, it compares to the work of Robert Fludd who in the 1600's believed that angels and demons were involved in health and sickness. What he's actually describing, for lack of a scientific language, is what we now understand and can define as antibodies. At the time Fludd theorized antibodies, there just wasn't the language, but there was also the threat of heresy, such was the limitation of scientific thinking then. The occult, in short, is simply science, or at least it was until it extrapolated (much like Christianity did into many denominations) into demon worship and the like. Misunderstood foundations. That's the occult in context.

Essentially, it boils down to understanding, and such understanding is inevitably defined by our present limitations. I think it's possible that a person tries to make sense of what they're mentally going through and finds solace in religion, when in essense they're clearly going out of their mind. and what makes it common is religion's accessability. such is the danger. A catholic who justifies their actions with scripture would be no different, as far as I'm concerned, to someone who goes to see a shrink then the following day shoots someone claiming the shrink told them to do it because the shrink said 'you shouldn't let people tread on you' or some such (take the opening to The Fisher King.. a radio show host's career ruinded because a phone in took what he said literally). Point being, people hear what they want to hear. Religion, radio dj's, shrinks out of the equation, what person's motivation is still the same. A comic book told me to do it, Judas Priest told me to do it, God told me to do it.

I also think, in judgement, it overshadows the inner workings of the mind. "God made me do it" can stick someone in a pidgeon hole we're all comfortable with. Blame it on Religion, blame it on Rock and Roll, blame it on Judas Priest, but it doesn't address the root of the problem. the root of the problem not being religion or rock and roll, but the individual.

You have to also consider then what it is they're thinking. Is it malice? By our standards and by those that they are judged, without question. But by their standards it's been rationalized, be it god telling them to do it or the Silver Surfer. Doesn't matter. Point is, that's how they justify their actions.

So what's wrong with the religion? Well, in a sense, the religion itself is subject to misunderstanding. Tremendous misunderstanding. From President Bush mentioning the term "Crusade" to somebody drowning their child because they just couldn't wash out the original sin. From Constantin narrowing the bible down from a vast number of accounts according to the political doctrine of the time to wacco. It can be twisted and construed only by us. A bunch of words committed to paper. Take one section of it and the church roof is getting paid for, take another and someone get's their head blown off. But there's little can be done about that. Because to take religion out of the frame work, to get rid of it simply wouldn't be enough. We would have to be devoid of thought entirely, devoid of expression, because it wouldn't be long before you heard someone saying 'he told me to do it!' Words, including those I write here, are subject to interprotation (and possibly better spelling too).

I think those people are lost, very lost, but sadly little is done to help them find their way, to guide them back, to understand because we all to easily brand our outcasts as demons and shove them to one side, away from the herd, so that we can say that they are not like us so that we can distance ourselves from our own fears.
 
ghostdog19 said:
... A catholic who justifies their actions with scripture would be no different, as far as I'm concerned, to someone who goes to see a shrink then the following day shoots someone claiming the shrink told them to do it because the shrink said 'you shouldn't let people tread on you' or some such (take the opening to The Fisher King.. a radio show host's career ruinded because a phone in took what he said literally). Point being, people hear what they want to hear. ...
If the psychiatrist in question manipulated people the way that some 'charismatic' preachers do, then they'd be arrested as accessories to murder.

This doesn't appear to be someone mishearing, or misinterpreting, someone else, because of mental illness, this seems to be a case of someone, being driven further out of their mind through the non-sense spouted by a person in a special position of trust, i.e. their preacher. A preacher who also denies the reality of mental illness. That's not protecting the flock, that's leading them into quicksand.

Just like Abu Hamsa, this preacher is spouting dangerous and injurious nonsense. His garbage about demon possession and driving demons out is not being misheard, or misinterpreted. It is wrong and dangerous.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3663101.html

...

"I do not believe that any mental illness exists other than demons, and no medication can straighten it out, other than the power of God," said Doyle Davidson, the 73-year-old minister of the Water of Life Church that Dena and John Schlosser attended several times a week.

...


Defense lawyers have faulted her husband and Davidson for downplaying her strange behavior and cutting short treatment of a psychotic condition that began after the birth of her third child in January 2004.

John Schlosser testified Tuesday that he did not seek medical help when his wife told him she wanted to "give the baby to God" about a week before their daughter's death.

Davidson said he hardly knew the family, although John Schlosser testified earlier that he and his wife talked with Davidson days before the attack and that the pastor was the first person he called after it.

"I talked with him maybe three times, I don't remember what about," Davidson said.

Davidson also testified that he has cast demons out of parishioners and seen evil spirits, including one that was 6 feet tall with a long tail. The former veterinarian, who has no formal religious training, has a cable TV show in the Dallas area and several states.

The Rev. Kathryn Self, another defense witness, called the beliefs of Davidson's church outside mainstream Christianity.

...
The individual in question may have been weak, but they weren't the only one to blame for their actions in this case. See the Revd. Jim Jones for further details.
 
Sorry, I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing and if so with what.

If we talking about the people who twist religion to influence others, that's what I meant with regard to political doctrine. In short, an agenda influencing others. So, what you're saying, I've no issue with.

also, worth remembering:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3663101.html
...
The Rev. Kathryn Self, another defense witness, called the beliefs of Davidson's church outside mainstream Christianity
...
Further to what I was saying about people taking and twisting it.

There's conventional understanding that doesn't opperate that way, but what I was saying was it was so subject to interpretation and extrapolation.
 
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