• Forums Software Updates

    The forums will be undergoing updates on Sunday 10th November 2024.
    Little to no downtime is expected.
  • We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Magical Language & Languages

P

Philo_T

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Messages
1,204
I'm starting this thread to get some discussion going and maybe find some references for several topics at the intersection of language and magic.

What I orginally wanted to discuss was the actual psychology of incantations, that is how they actually effect the sayer and listener, not any putative "magical effect". Things like the brains response to certain rhythems and such. I've always wondered if blank verse (broken rhyming schemes) had ever been studied from a psychological standpoint. It seems to me that your brain does a double take because it is expecting a rhyme when there isn't one.

Other topics I'm looking for magical links are nonsense poetry (like Edward Lear) and jazz "scat" singing.

Then you have Terrance McKenna (sp?) and his "machine elves" that he saw when tripping out on DMT. He claimed that they were "made out of language" and insisted that they were real extant entities.

Sorry to be so vauge about this, I'm kind of woolgathering and wondering what other's thoughts were along these lines. Does anyone out there have any ideas or good sources on this kind of stuff?
 
The only source that comes readily to mind is the early work of Kenneth Grant. Admittedly, he places too much emphasis on (often tenuous) connections that support his ideas, but in the context of the present subject he does have some interesting things to say.

His take on the 'barborous names of evocation' - the often meaningless invocations in an unknown tongue that feature in a number of grimoires - is that the language circumvents the conscious mind (by virtue of the fact that it is unintelligible) and speaks directly to the unconscious, often regarded as the seat of magical power. A similar example can be found in surrealist and some abstract art: it goes beyond simple representation and is likely to engage with or resonate in the subconscious. I'm sure that other examples can be found in music (as I recall, Grant also draws an analogy with certain forms of jazz) and poetry.
 
A vast and fascinating subject.

Language as creating reality ... Terrence McKenna (RIP), yes, but also the aboriginal dreamtime songs (?) continually bringing the world into being, "Fiat Lux", and all story telling since who knows when everywhere constantly creating/identifting and reinforcing archetypal forms, making heroes and monsters out of shadows .... and breathing real life into them? Vampires, ghosts, aliens .... if they exist in whatever passes for objective reality could they not have been manifested by the constant repetition of tales about them, rather than the tales first being inspired by the reality of them ....

Language with psychological effects - chants and mantras and poetry and spells, rhetoric and invective, the sheer power of well crafted human speech, the psycho-acoustics of stone age monuments, the awe-inspiring echoes inside a cathedral, the vibration of the names in ceremonial magic(k), glossolalia, the whisper of your name by a loved one ........


As something of a linguist and a magic(k)ian (studied linguistics at university many many years ago, practice a little magic(k) as I have no doubt already bored you with on this board), I often ponder these things and others of a similar kidney. As regards the language of the grimoires, I adore it as I love all the pomp of ritual magic(k).

I cannot think of any good sources off the top of my head - McKenna obviously had a lot to say on the matter - a lot of it I can't bring myself to agree with. I am sure Robert Anton Wilson probably first got me thinking about these things, like so many others. Philip K. Dick in his beautiful lunacy obsesses on the logos. Etc.

If anyone does know of any non-pop-culture sources on the subject I would be interested to read 'em, as, as with so many things, I have long regarded this subject an ineffable mystery which can only be unravelled through personal revelation, and so don't look for books about it particularly :)

"Mutger Allum Fesher!"
 
I suppose you know about, The White Goddess, by Robert Graves? If not, I can recommend it.

I once heard Anthony Burgess describe Robert Graves and his ideas and theories on poetry as an invocation of the, Moon Goddess and Muse as `dangerous.' What further recommendation could you ask for?
 
A fascinating subject Philo T :)

For me language and magick are inseperable - Magick is Language. Language, Magick.

To cast a spell is the same as to spell - it is spelling.
The language of magick is more about language than magick. For example, the word "Grimoire" (a magick book) means Grammar.
Magick is creation, fiction, fantasy…
N.B. The magick gods - Hermes, Mercury and Thoth, were all scribes - the gods of language and writing.

In the beginning there was the Word...
 
wool gathering

93,

Try Bill Burroughs and Genesis P Orridge. Both magickians obsessed with language. Lots of resources on the net.
As for entities made out of letters, have a look at Enochian.

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
luciferrofocale - Bill Burroughs ? Do you mean William Burroughs? That's good point, I hadn't thought about his writing in this context.

Several posters mentioned glossolalia and the use of "gibberish" to directly speak to the subconscious. That was one of the key points I was interested in, particularly any controlled studies to see if there actually is such a link.

I mentioned Edward Lear -- let's not forget Dr Seuss! For some reason, this kind of stuff seems to get fed to the kiddies at an early age. I guess that could just be an attempt to exercise the linguistic muscles to help development. We all know how it is when you discover a new skill, you want to play around with it and use it for everything. "Kids love puns!"


The mention of glossolalia brings to mind the idea that many "primitives" seemed to have that "insane" people are plugged directly into God. (Or at least something supra-mundane, but not imaginary). Us in the "West" were routinely told during the cold war that in the Soviet Union, dissidents were often locked up in insane asylums. Clearly a case of hiding away people that say things that make the powers that be uncomfortable. I've read similar, tongue in cheek, references to the Catholic church and monasteries.
 
93,

Yes that's dear William Burroughs...
Glossolalia and nonsense talk is used by magickians.
As for the 'insane people are really in touch with what's going on' there's that parable about the difference madman and the magickian being that the magickian knows who to tell.
Would write more, got to dash..

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
You can trace a lot of this sort of thing back to renaissance ideas about the supposed divine perfection of certain languages, usually Hebrew but sometimes Egyptian, Chinese etc. In the former case this was itself influenced by Kabbalistic reading methods involving numeric substitution, anagramatization, etc. This is linked to speculations as to the miraculous powers of the language that Adam spoke when naming the beasts in Eden - it was often thought to have referred directly to the world, as opposed to the arbitrary, contingent relation our fallen language bears to reality. Some thought Hebrew was this language, or close to it; others tried to recover its original purity through invented tongues and new magical languages.

The idea that some bits of text have hidden depths is a very old one, but I think the tradition of allegorical reading made a big difference to how intensely people tried to find hidden magical or religious meaning in texts that overtly seemed to be dealing with very different subjects. Here, language is protective veil of concealment rather than incantatory link to the divine. Pico della Mirandola wrote:

"Openly to reveal to the people the hidden mysteries and the secret intentions of the highest divinity, which lay concealed under the hard shell of the law and the rough vesture of language, what else could this be but to throw holy things to dogs and to strew gems among swine? The decision, consequently, to keep such things hidden from the vulgar and to communicate them only to the initiate, among whom alone, as Paul says, wisdom speaks, was not a counsel of human prudence but a divine command."

On the subject of whether certain words or phrases can induce altered states, a friend used to do buddhist chanting and claimed the prayers he chanted had an effect in themselves, but I thought this was more likely to do with the breathing patterns enforced by the chants than the sounds themselves. But then that's my answer to everything... :)
 
A recent broadcast of The Damnation of Faust by Berlioz reminded
me that the composer invented a demonic language for the final
scene. He based it on suggestions in Swedenborg - presumably
Heaven & Hell. It sounds nicely barbarous!

There is a famous example of demonic language in Dante, who puts
these words in the mouth of the giant Nimrod in the Thirty-First Canto
of the Inferno:
"Rafel mai amech zabi almi"
Dorothy L. Sayers suggests that the poet did not invent them but
got them from a charm. :confused:
 
In the book "The Last Kabbalist of Lisbon", the hero's father makes an intriguing statement that angels are themselves books - the letters of their names revealing Kabbalistic truths, allowing the Kabalist to read and speak to them. I don't know if this idea was derived from Zoharic mysticism, folklore, or whether it is the author's own invention, but it has a ring of truth about it to me.

The Sefer Yetzirah outlines the way in which the letters of the Hebrew alphabet were used by God to create all things. It is not surprising that the Sefer Yetzirah is the core text for people interested in creating life through language. The most obvious manifestation of this is the golem, although it was used more subtly by the Renaissence Hermetic philsophers. Lazarelli for one believes that words have power and connection to things, and wrote that in the mind (Adama) of the magus a new being can be created by the manipulation of letters and their utterance. It was even suggested that music, which animates the air, may be used to make the bodies of spirits. Such practices of 'God making' are based on eclectic sources - the Sefer Yetzirah, Asclepius and Orphic Hymns, to name a few, and are, to me, a fascinating area to research.

As for 'barbarous words', I believe they're usually either of Semetic origin, or derived from Kabalistic ciphers (e.g. substitution tables etc). Finding out what they originally were, however, can be something of a problem. To give a simple example, the word HEL appears in many magical manuscripts. It is actually a corruption of the Hebrew Ha El, meaning "The One True God".

Where was I, again?

DSSh
 
Dee's Enochian language of the angels is probably the most interesting of magickal languages because it appears to be unrelated to other languages yet still has a grammar and logical structure. However it should be noted that Dee was a master cryptographer...

In a nice synchronistical turn of events a friend of mine has just directed me to this page - http://www.jate.u-szeged.hu/~geszonyi/wolfen98.htm
I've not read it fully yet but it looks interesting.
 
James Whitehead said:
.......There is a famous example of demonic language in Dante, who puts
these words in the mouth of the giant Nimrod in the Thirty-First Canto
of the Inferno:
"Rafel mai amech zabi almi"
Dorothy L. Sayers suggests that the poet did not invent them but
got them from a charm. :confused:
Click to expand...
According to David Ovason in "The Secrets of Nostradamus" the three writers, apart from Nostradamus himself, known to have used the Language of the Birds were Dante, Swift and Rabelais.
So perhaps there's more in Dante that begs closer inspection.

One of the aspects of the Language of the Birds was the use of Gematria, its basic premise being that the same group of letters carried the same force regardless of their order. In other words anagrams were often used to conceal the writer's true meaning. This idea also has a lot to do with numerology by which each letter carries a numerical value. Using Gematria, the numerical value of the intended word was arrived at by substituting different letters which together carried the same total as the intended word. So more simply, certain words through constant usage as numerical substitutes came to imply other things not obvious from the context.
There are in addition 8 or 9 other rules by which medieval writers sought to conceal their true meaning. So its a daunting task trying to lift the veil. Rabelais studied philology at university so he knew his stuff.

Referring back to Dante, I'd guess you'd have to read the original text in any case to decipher what esoteric meaning there was.;)
 
tomsk said:
......The idea that some bits of text have hidden depths is a very old one, but I think the tradition of allegorical reading made a big difference to how intensely people tried to find hidden magical or religious meaning in texts that overtly seemed to be dealing with very different subjects. Here, language is protective veil of concealment rather than incantatory link to the divine..... :)
Click to expand...
With writers like Swift and Rabelais, the "protective veil of concealment" was essential because had their subversive political ideas been overtly expressed they'd have undoubtedly been burnt at the stake. Similarly with Nostradamus.

As for words used as magical incantation, I suspect that neither the meaning nor the sounds of the words has any relevance. The key factors rather IMO are the practitioner's belief in the power of the incantation, and the way in which the incantation focuses the mind on the desired outcome.
 
Maybe magickal languages act like visual sigils, but in an aural sense, in that being unfamiliar, they are obscure and easily forgotten, thereby avoiding analytical entanglement in the conscious mind.
 
Surely all language is magical.

The way a thing is described by it's name affects the way it is percieved.
If you tell a lie often enough it can become indistinguisable from the truth.

I many cultures the naming of things or people is held to have special significance. Why else would we christen both ships and children?

Cujo
(whatever I tell you three times is true)
 
Just my 2p, but this put me in mind of LeGuin's Earthsea books and the idea of true names. Not, I'm sure, an original idea of UlGs but still intiguing, it stipulates that all things have a true name (given by divine powers, dragons or even people) and if one knows the true name one can control the named thing, animal or person.

In a certain way this already operates in our world - if we consider the arrangement of DNA into GADT permutations we ccan say that by knowing the name of DNA we can control it. many people on the subculture scene use pseudonyms, as it is generally believed that if we reveal our real names THEY will be able to get us. I use a nickname to conceal my true ID, and therefore preventing people knowing too much about me (cf members being banned for revealing personal information (aka the truth) about members of this board).

Another pop culture reference is the matrix, where the knowledge of the 'word' or program behind the apparent reality allows neo control over it.

Also the (i believe) Clarke short about the 9 billion names of god where a sect of monks finds every possible permutation of the word for god, and in doing so, ends the univers (the point being that language is seen as the ultimate goal of consciousness, and that the goal of language is to decrypt the universe, in order to unmake it).

Obviously a long-lasting meme, the concept of the 'word' (logos in John ch1 'in the begining was the word, and the word was God, and the word was with god) as being some sort of key to ultimate reality, and to the initiates ability to thenceforth command reality and bend it to their will.

PS as music is humanmade surely at counts as a language of its own and therefore the discussion should open up from uttered words to constructed noise of any sort - certainly bands like Coil and Autechre create sounds which directly affect brainwave patterns...
 
magical language

I have encountered magic associated with verbage in many permutations. One may associate the topic with the kabbalistic first letter, wherein the first creation event is expressed. Such is at the heart of pagan and esoteric belief in exhalations in the process of magic. In a more scientific vein, phonemes may be traced into antiquity with lexicostatistical similarities.

Magic associated with the spoken word occurs even in modern Christianity. Affirmations, which are spoken out loud, are used by Christians to secure material blessings. Additionally, a recited prayer is considered to be more powerful than a silent one. Also, one may observe that Christian leaders encourage followers to meditate upon, while enunciating, the name "Jesus," which is itself considered a potent lexicon for effecting magical changes. The latter is a curious practice, especially considering the original pronounciation of the name was "Yeh-shu-a."
 
Found while researching something for the 'inarticulate thread' : The Edward Lear page

The links page references :
The Brain's Funny Bone: Seinfeld, The Simpsons spark same nerve circuits

Did you hear the one about the prefrontal cortex?

Granted, these articles focus on humor, but they do show research being done on the action of language on the brain. Still haven't found any actual research on using language to directly impact change (ie, not by causing humans to take action to effect change).
 
Yep, it's another badly researched, ill conceived, Tipsy McStagger of a reply to what has been to date an interesting thread:

I read / heard / imagined that the term "ta-ra-ra-boom-di-yay"; which on doing a straw poll round my office is an acknowledged "song" these days; actually came from blacks vocalising voodoo chants. I understand that the "call and reply" style of voodoo means that many *non-sensical* words come out in these ceremonies. The practioners, rather than dismissing the vocalisations as a by-product, see them as a wholly legitimate way of affecting change on our material plane...

Or I read this in a 40's pulp horror book, that also included eldritch gods and creeping horrors:)
 
tarara..

93,

I remember Crowley talks about this in an essay in 'The Revival of Magick' not sure if it's online...
Anyone near their bookcase?

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
Originally posted by eljubbo
I understand that the "call and reply" style of voodoo means that many *non-sensical* words come out in these ceremonies. The practioners, rather than dismissing the vocalisations as a by-product, see them as a wholly legitimate way of affecting change on our material plane...

This reminds me of a technique I once read about in a chaos magick book, whereby the practitioner creates a single word from a sentence defining a desire by crossing out any recurring letters, and recombining the remaining letters to form a new word, which is then repeated like a mantra, eventually achieving the desired objective. The word may change during the course of the recital, but this should not be discouraged, or corrected, as this is the natural evolution of the mantric process and serves to disguise the original desire from the conscious mind thereby bypassing the analytical processes and allowing the symbolised desire to pass unhindered into the subconscious, where it can achieve the desired effect. There would appear to be an analogy here.
Click to expand...
 
Steve said:
This reminds me of a technique I once read about in a chaos magick book, whereby the practitioner creates a single word from a sentence defining a desire by crossing out any recurring letters, and recombining the remaining letters to form a new word, which is then repeated like a mantra, eventually achieving the desired objective. The word may change during the course of the recital, but this should not be discouraged, or corrected, as this is the natural evolution of the mantric process and serves to disguise the original desire from the conscious mind thereby bypassing the analytical processes and allowing the symbolised desire to pass unhindered into the subconscious, where it can achieve the desired effect. There would appear to be an analogy here.
Click to expand...

This is very like the sigil technique I posted about here

Cujo
 
Philo T said:
I've always wondered if blank verse (broken rhyming schemes) had ever been studied from a psychological standpoint. It seems to me that your brain does a double take because it is expecting a rhyme when there isn't one.[/B]
Click to expand...

I know what you mean but blank verse isn't a broken rhyming sceme its continuous lines of non-rhyming Iambic Pentameter (sorry, i'm a pedant). I think you are referring to 'defeated expectation' - which is indeed interesting as one's mind frequently becomes absorbed in any form of repetition in order to save itself the work of fresh perception.

On the magical language theme perhaps the most famous example of the primacy of language and the direct power of words runs:

"In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God... All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

John Ch.1 v. 1-3. .

I was going to harp on about Wittgenstein and Logical Positivism but its too late at night so i'll spare you all...
 
The Yitthian said:
one's mind frequently becomes absorbed in any form of repetition in order to save itself the work of fresh perception.
Click to expand...

That fits well with my experience. But is there any hard data to back this up? If so, this is a good example of one facet of what I'm trying to get at.
 
re: in the beginning - Logos is the original Greek and it has many meanings, including word, thought, reason, revelation and will. This is where we get 'ology endings, logo (which is sort of the essence of a company). Jewish cabbalists, I believe, think the world is made of words, and that if one concentrates in a particular way, one can 'hear' the words of creation within the self.

In later Hindu thought, as stolen by the Hari Krishna cult, merely mentioning the word Krishna at the point of death allowed one to enter nirvana.

I'm not sure that there is really a difference between speaking a prayer, curse or spell and thinking it. Does the application of breath and muscle make any differnce to the conception of these ideas. I suppose if you were an ancient Greek or Hindu you might say so - breath being synonymous with the underlying cause of all things (Atman, the materail of the universe, and Atmosphere having common linguistic roots), but does this hold for the modern magickian? Answers, as usual, on a postcard please :)
 
pi23

It seems that the essence of magick is in the spoken word. Therefore, it stands to reason (and rhyme) that there may be some original magical language(s) which is highly potent. Or perhaps it is "the thought that counts." Whatever the case, uttering an objective appears to be powerful. Whether the modus operandi is atheistic, christian, mithraism, pagan, zoroastrian or any of the myriad belief systems promulgated, ad absurdum, such is a common thread. Perhaps, then, one should always be watchful of one's own utterances.

Personal education and experience tends to confirm a certain supernatural existence within the spoken word. Apparently by speaking well of others and ourselves, we thus create the world desired. Moreover, perceptions, governed by thoughts, ARE the world we create. Because thoughts are within control, control over one's world is possible through thoughts and words. Finally, an individual's actions result from thinking and speaking. While the subtleties involved diverge considerably from the point, the explanation should suffice.
 
thoughts are things...

Thoughts are things
That have wings,
Out to roam
Then back home,

They can swarm
And do harm,
Or do good
Like they should.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top