Magick: What's The Point?
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FraterLibre
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Threefold Law
Whether we like it or not the threefold law holds true, as I know from experience. Watch the negative energy, it tends to splash and rebound. Wanting things for greedy, selfish reasons is a form of negative energy, which is why it works for those things. Daft or not, morality has nothing to do with it. More like the second law of thermodynamics or somesuch.
Whether we like it or not the threefold law holds true, as I know from experience. Watch the negative energy, it tends to splash and rebound. Wanting things for greedy, selfish reasons is a form of negative energy, which is why it works for those things. Daft or not, morality has nothing to do with it. More like the second law of thermodynamics or somesuch.
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Re: Threefold Law
...works only if you expect it to.
The universe has no in-built inclination to positivity or negativity...
...despite our wishful thinking to the contrary. If you get bit up the arse by the "three-fold law" you did the biting yourself...
...works only if you expect it to.
The universe has no in-built inclination to positivity or negativity...
...despite our wishful thinking to the contrary. If you get bit up the arse by the "three-fold law" you did the biting yourself...I tend to agree - it tends to imply that there is some sort of law out there which means that certain things will come back and bite you on the bum. The only sense it makes is that such negativity is counter-productive for yourself as it doesn't lead anywhere as far as The Work is concerned. Smacks too much of the Wiccan rede to me 
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triple whammy
93,
The threefold law was something Austin Osman Spare invented to shut up Gerald Gardener. Haven't found any other source for it and it seems to be a bit of a Xtian guilt trip in borrowed clothes.
That's not to say that you don't get unexpected side effects and collateral damage..
93 93 93
Peter Grey
93,
The threefold law was something Austin Osman Spare invented to shut up Gerald Gardener. Haven't found any other source for it and it seems to be a bit of a Xtian guilt trip in borrowed clothes.
That's not to say that you don't get unexpected side effects and collateral damage..
93 93 93
Peter Grey
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FraterLibre
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You Can
You can be accurate and incorrect, and you can be right but still entirely wrong.
It's a misinterpretation to take the threefold law literally. Its a misrepresentation to take it as some bias in the universe. Has nought to do with any of that, nor does magick. It's all about tranforming the mage. Of COURSE you bite yourself if something splashes back on you; that's exactly what is meant. Know why?
You ARE the universe, and it is YOU. All is One, No Separation. Learn that and apparent contradictions, which are prefectly valid on some levels, vanish.
And while the formulation of this phenomenon, or set of phenomena, may well be specious and "meant to shut Gardner up," -- something we'd all have wished for, lol -- the thing itself remains quite relavant and true.
You can be accurate and incorrect, and you can be right but still entirely wrong.
It's a misinterpretation to take the threefold law literally. Its a misrepresentation to take it as some bias in the universe. Has nought to do with any of that, nor does magick. It's all about tranforming the mage. Of COURSE you bite yourself if something splashes back on you; that's exactly what is meant. Know why?
You ARE the universe, and it is YOU. All is One, No Separation. Learn that and apparent contradictions, which are prefectly valid on some levels, vanish.
And while the formulation of this phenomenon, or set of phenomena, may well be specious and "meant to shut Gardner up," -- something we'd all have wished for, lol -- the thing itself remains quite relavant and true.
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Re: triple whammy
I've always felt that the Rede and the Threefold law weren't really expressions of some impersonal force looking at everything you do and making you suffer a little when you did "bad." Rather, I see it as an attempt to put a face on a phenomena of getting little splashes of your own energy back from any work you do. Not really so much as "morality," as that has too many connotations, but simply an expression of how you need to be so careful about how you have things worded and idealized, lest you get caught in the ripples of your work.
Charles
luciferrofocale said:
I've always felt that the Rede and the Threefold law weren't really expressions of some impersonal force looking at everything you do and making you suffer a little when you did "bad." Rather, I see it as an attempt to put a face on a phenomena of getting little splashes of your own energy back from any work you do. Not really so much as "morality," as that has too many connotations, but simply an expression of how you need to be so careful about how you have things worded and idealized, lest you get caught in the ripples of your work.
Charles
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FraterLibre
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Yes
Charles,
Exactly so, well put.
Charles,
Exactly so, well put.
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Re: You Can
You know, this is the basis so much magick, and I'm amazed about how often I forget this. Nicely spoken.
Charles
FraterLibre said:
You know, this is the basis so much magick, and I'm amazed about how often I forget this. Nicely spoken.
Charles
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Re: Re: triple whammy
Then... why does it come back three-fold? Surely if the splashing 'energies' are but a tiny fraction of that sent out their effect would be but a fraction of that on the target, not three times as great...Greens001 said:
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FraterLibre
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Why Threefold?
Because when it happens to someone else it's just good fun but when it happens to YOU it's onerous, burdensome, and personal.
Why is everyone so literal? So determined to find fault with what is but a philosophic stance? So CSICOP-busted and Randybot stricken?
Lighten up, folks.
Because when it happens to someone else it's just good fun but when it happens to YOU it's onerous, burdensome, and personal.
Why is everyone so literal? So determined to find fault with what is but a philosophic stance? So CSICOP-busted and Randybot stricken?
Lighten up, folks.
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You Lighten Up!
...and no I'm not going to explain that! 
I'm not questioning the validility of the 3fold law, I'm trying to biassociate it to increase it's usefulness. Magic[k] doesn't deal with True or False in the same sense as anything else and trying to apply those perspectives to it will mess up your workings for decades.
That said, you imply any skecpticism on my behalf again and I'll fill you so full of doubt that you'll have to reinvent a whole new system of correspondences... (jk)
To question is the way to understanding; to accept without question is the way to misunderstanding. The ThreeFold Law can be a useful tool in some circumstances but a right tit in others. Since it's such a prevalent crutch, I use it on the few ocassions when I have found need to curse other practitioners...FraterLibre said:
...and no I'm not going to explain that! I'm not questioning the validility of the 3fold law, I'm trying to biassociate it to increase it's usefulness. Magic[k] doesn't deal with True or False in the same sense as anything else and trying to apply those perspectives to it will mess up your workings for decades.
That said, you imply any skecpticism on my behalf again and I'll fill you so full of doubt that you'll have to reinvent a whole new system of correspondences...
(jk)
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FraterLibre
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Curses, Foiled Again
If you've cursed then you know. It's not an enlightened action and inevitably reflects upon you far worse than it does upon the curse's recipient.
My point wasn't to avoid questions. Questions, not answers, is a good way to live. All questions are valid and welcome. Perhaps I exhibited mild frustration at how consistently the Threefold Law and other aspects of neopaganism are misrepresented and misunderstood and if so, I apologize.
As for Kurtz's Krusaders, one is shellshocked by the tactics and harangues that group of literalists uses, and so sometimes misjudges the intent of a question, having seen its like used as a set-up for a bashing all too often.
"Accept nothing; find your own light," the Buddha said as he died, in one tradition. Find our for yourself is the best advice. Neither follower nor leader be.
Namaste.
If you've cursed then you know. It's not an enlightened action and inevitably reflects upon you far worse than it does upon the curse's recipient.
My point wasn't to avoid questions. Questions, not answers, is a good way to live. All questions are valid and welcome. Perhaps I exhibited mild frustration at how consistently the Threefold Law and other aspects of neopaganism are misrepresented and misunderstood and if so, I apologize.
As for Kurtz's Krusaders, one is shellshocked by the tactics and harangues that group of literalists uses, and so sometimes misjudges the intent of a question, having seen its like used as a set-up for a bashing all too often.
"Accept nothing; find your own light," the Buddha said as he died, in one tradition. Find our for yourself is the best advice. Neither follower nor leader be.
Namaste.
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Re: Curses, Foiled Again
Except, of course, when it doesn't. Curses, when used properly, can be as an enlightened and, ultimately, benign working as healing. In fact curses can be used as healings, if you know what you're doing...FraterLibre said:
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Anonymous
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How Many Demons Does It Take To Make You Dance On The Point
This is the most interesting debate on magical metaphysics and anti-theology that I've come across in some time.
This is the most interesting debate on magical metaphysics and anti-theology that I've come across in some time.
The thing is, the Threefold Law seems to be a fairly modern construct (esp. if, as described above, it was invented by A.O. Spare). So, if this is the case, it doesn't really seem to be a factor that has any bearing on magic. I still think it has too much of a moral edge to it. I mean, if it is indeed a factor, does it also mean that 'good' magical acts rebound good things back to the source? It sounds too much like a sort of reward/punishment system.
I only mention this because it seems to me that this sort of minutae can tend to take you away from the main purpose and path of the magical experience. It's almost like someone is looking over your shoulder, which seems rather trite to me.
I only mention this because it seems to me that this sort of minutae can tend to take you away from the main purpose and path of the magical experience. It's almost like someone is looking over your shoulder, which seems rather trite to me.
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FraterLibre
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Curses, Foiled Aluminum
Niles - It seems you're altering the traditional notion of "curse" when you speak of using one as healing, but I think I see what you're getting at. Can you, however, so we're clear, offer an example?
Andro - I agree, most interesting stuff.
Niles - It seems you're altering the traditional notion of "curse" when you speak of using one as healing, but I think I see what you're getting at. Can you, however, so we're clear, offer an example?
Andro - I agree, most interesting stuff.
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Re: Curses, Foiled Aluminum
It's like when doctors treat cancer; they have to poison the cancer cells without killing the patient. Likewise sometimes you have to curse to cure.
Take the fictional example of a junkie trying to go cold turkey. The biggest hurdle in their way is the temptation to backslide. The typical approach would be to bolster their will with your own, but if they are particualry feckless (and after years of drug abuse, Will isn't something they'll have much of) this may not work. The solution? Curse them so that the sources of their 'poison' dry up. The method? Well please excuse me for not publicly spreading a method for using karmic backlash to empower curses...
Sure, although I reserve the right to be obtuse...FraterLibre said:
It's like when doctors treat cancer; they have to poison the cancer cells without killing the patient. Likewise sometimes you have to curse to cure.
Take the fictional example of a junkie trying to go cold turkey. The biggest hurdle in their way is the temptation to backslide. The typical approach would be to bolster their will with your own, but if they are particualry feckless (and after years of drug abuse, Will isn't something they'll have much of) this may not work. The solution? Curse them so that the sources of their 'poison' dry up. The method? Well please excuse me for not publicly spreading a method for using karmic backlash to empower curses...
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Anonymous
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Re: Re: Curses, Foiled Aluminum
Gone, the television that made me glad;
As your habit has taken from mine;
So shall it take from thine;
No [Heroin] shall you acquire anymore;
Clean hence forth forever more.
Gone, the expensive gift sent by dad;Niles Calder said:
Gone, the television that made me glad;
As your habit has taken from mine;
So shall it take from thine;
No [Heroin] shall you acquire anymore;
Clean hence forth forever more.
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Robyn, it's still a curse, and can be dangerous if done wrong. Your rhyme in the hands of someone ignorant of the process would be harmful...
Oh, and you owe me, big time.
Oh, and you owe me, big time.
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Anonymous
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Heavy on the Magick
Does the extra k in "magick" affect the pronounciation of "magickian"? Inquiring minds need to know.
Does the extra k in "magick" affect the pronounciation of "magickian"? Inquiring minds need to know.
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FraterLibre
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A Blunt Response No Doubt Destinted To Be Bowdlerized
This is Buffyism at its finest, and nonsense. I shan't excuse you for this, no. Fact is, magical thinking isn't magic, and the "method" is either self-delusion or no big secret. If it makes you feel more important, though, by all means continue to mystify yourself.
Niles Calder said:Sure, although I reserve the right to be obtuse...
It's like when doctors treat cancer; they have to poison the cancer cells without killing the patient. Likewise sometimes you have to curse to cure.
Take the fictional example of a junkie trying to go cold turkey. The biggest hurdle in their way is the temptation to backslide. The typical approach would be to bolster their will with your own, but if they are particualry feckless (and after years of drug abuse, Will isn't something they'll have much of) this may not work. The solution? Curse them so that the sources of their 'poison' dry up. The method? Well please excuse me for not publicly spreading a method for using karmic backlash to empower curses...
This is Buffyism at its finest, and nonsense. I shan't excuse you for this, no. Fact is, magical thinking isn't magic, and the "method" is either self-delusion or no big secret. If it makes you feel more important, though, by all means continue to mystify yourself.
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FraterLibre
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No Bad Dogs, Er, I Mean Curses
This has decayed to childhish nonsense, which is both too bad and predictable.
For a moment, a brief glimmer, and the the darkness returns...we tried.
Niles Calder said:Robyn, it's still a curse, and can be dangerous if done wrong. Your rhyme in the hands of someone ignorant of the process would be harmful...
Oh, and you owe me, big time.
This has decayed to childhish nonsense, which is both too bad and predictable.
For a moment, a brief glimmer, and the the darkness returns...we tried.
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Re: No Bad Dogs, Er, I Mean Curses
That's too bad. And it was going so well, too.
Charles
FraterLibre said:
That's too bad. And it was going so well, too.
Charles
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FraterLibre
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Yep
Charles,
Yes, but predictable, this decline into cartoon thinking. Look around. It's everywhere. Most don't know any better and some actually stumble onto systems they learn to interpret as valid, rather than discovering from within the basics, the eternal truths and lies that link us all even as they keep us forever apart and, yes, a part.
Charles,
Yes, but predictable, this decline into cartoon thinking. Look around. It's everywhere. Most don't know any better and some actually stumble onto systems they learn to interpret as valid, rather than discovering from within the basics, the eternal truths and lies that link us all even as they keep us forever apart and, yes, a part.
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Whenever I hear a "spell" that rhymes I snort involuntarily.
Freaky.
Freaky.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I've successfully used this method once or thrice in the past. I must have been mistaken.FraterLibre said:
As for the private joke between my sibling and I... myob. If you don't get it then it shows the gap in your understanding.
Fine. I refer you to Celtic mythology, especially any refering to the works of Bards. I can heartily recommend a study of curses in myth and legend. I also suggest that you drop your elitist BS.
The example I gave was both obtuse and fictionalised for simpilification. If you consider it "Buffyism", well both method and process are sound; if you fail to see it then it's your own prejudices obscuring your view.
"Enlightened" indeed. :hmph:
Magical Thinking is the very foundation of Magic (I'm sorry I refuse to use that elitist "K" any further). If you fail to think magically how can you ever structure a sequence of correspondences or enact any working at all?
When you get down to the very basics of magic, it's the Magical Thinking, and the altered state it produces, which do the real work. The various Traditions are akin to the varied OS used on numerous computers around the world. Some are highly speciallised and others, it goes without saying, are a more generalised. You might be happy with your tradition, but some of us like to change ours to suit our needs, or to match our envelope of operation.
Now kindly tell us what you thought I was going to say.
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Anonymous
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OK, back to the Threefold Law
Although the Law may indeed be a modern construct or realisation, IMO it represents the ultimate in common sense:
Whatever you do, for good or for bad will eventually cause events that will affect you and those around you. Good tends to encourage beneficial response and vice versa.
I tend to regard any Magickal working in a similar way that I would to throwing a pebble into a pond; whilst on the face of it the act may cause a few ripples, the effect on the pond's microcosm can be extreme and result in effects that are not easy to predict. Nothing earth shattering, but there are repercussions that tend to go unoticed.
The threefold law implies a defined quantity, a bit more thought provoking than 'as you sow so shall you reap', but the general law of cause and effect is observed in both.
Although the Law may indeed be a modern construct or realisation, IMO it represents the ultimate in common sense:
Whatever you do, for good or for bad will eventually cause events that will affect you and those around you. Good tends to encourage beneficial response and vice versa.
I tend to regard any Magickal working in a similar way that I would to throwing a pebble into a pond; whilst on the face of it the act may cause a few ripples, the effect on the pond's microcosm can be extreme and result in effects that are not easy to predict. Nothing earth shattering, but there are repercussions that tend to go unoticed.
The threefold law implies a defined quantity, a bit more thought provoking than 'as you sow so shall you reap', but the general law of cause and effect is observed in both.
A
Anonymous
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Niles and Frater - I've got the answer to this, ahem , slight disagreement.
First one to invoke an undine, send it round to the others house for a right good soaking.
Job done
First one to invoke an undine, send it round to the others house for a right good soaking.
Job done
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Undine? I keep one in the bath, I'll track down FL and send it over right away