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Magick: Whether & If So How It Works

I always thought that black magic was essentially the magic that messed up the practitioner. You know, like the classic necromancy trope like the ouija board that ends up with a schizoid person with a religious background going all Linda Blair because they think they have it coming. Magic is an art of the mind, and not the rational mind, consequently there are plenty of people who aren't right in the head or happy in their own shoes who tend to find their neuroses chewing them a new one when they become practitioners. In many ways you can read Wu Cheng'en's Journey to the West as an allegory for dealing with one's personal demons, and that is a theme in Buddhism that most people miss.
Another book I'll have to buy!! :)

I had a friend a long time ago who didn't necessarily believe in magick but told me that he once put a curse on someone he hated and who was being nasty to others and that the person went onto killing themselves.

I don't like magick where you use it against others and particularly in a horrible way.
 
I don't like magick where you use it against others and particularly in a horrible way.
I know someone who actually believes that only aggressive magic is real, and doesn't seem to understand any of the peaceful applications of magic, like healing, or what RPGs would call skill buffs, or fertility magic, or detection divination, or memory perking spells. He continuously turns a deaf ear to the possibility too. He's a Buddhist, and thinks that because the Bodhisattva Milarepa laid curses on his enemies and had to pay for this bad karma, that all magic is only bad. Then there are the Muslims, who think that all magic derives from djinn whom they think of as pretty much equivalent to demons. Personally, I don't believe in deities of any kind, I think they are all tulpas/egregores of varying sizes. I also think that apparently bad things exist for a good reason.
 
I know someone who actually believes that only aggressive magic is real, and doesn't seem to understand any of the peaceful applications of magic, like healing, or what RPGs would call skill buffs, or fertility magic, or detection divination, or memory perking spells. He continuously turns a deaf ear to the possibility too. He's a Buddhist, and thinks that because the Bodhisattva Milarepa laid curses on his enemies and had to pay for this bad karma, that all magic is only bad. Then there are the Muslims, who think that all magic derives from djinn whom they think of as pretty much equivalent to demons. Personally, I don't believe in deities of any kind, I think they are all tulpas/egregores of varying sizes. I also think that apparently bad things exist for a good reason.
I'm reading a lot about luciferianism as it's what I identify with the most.

They believe you are your own God/Goddess

I always assume that Buddhists are largely peaceful but obviously not going by your friend!
 
I know someone who actually believes that only aggressive magic is real, and doesn't seem to understand any of the peaceful applications of magic, like healing, or what RPGs would call skill buffs, or fertility magic, or detection divination, or memory perking spells. He continuously turns a deaf ear to the possibility too. He's a Buddhist, and thinks that because the Bodhisattva Milarepa laid curses on his enemies and had to pay for this bad karma, that all magic is only bad. Then there are the Muslims, who think that all magic derives from djinn whom they think of as pretty much equivalent to demons. Personally, I don't believe in deities of any kind, I think they are all tulpas/egregores of varying sizes. I also think that apparently bad things exist for a good reason.
And I definitely agree that bad things happen for a reason too.

We would never know or appreciate the good if we didn't have the negative.
 
They believe you are your own God/Goddess
That sounds like solipsism, or something like it.
One of the things at the core of Satanism seems to be a self-centred view of the world.
 
I always assume that Buddhists are largely peaceful but obviously not going by your friend!
Most Buddhists are peaceful in my experience. Milarepa laid curses before he became a serious Buddhist, and my acquaintance in question thinks that what was true for Milarepa is true for everybody and all time. Admittedly within karma theory, getting magic is a karma accelerator for good or ill.
 
Most Buddhists are peaceful in my experience. Milarepa laid curses before he became a serious Buddhist, and my acquaintance in question thinks that what was true for Milarepa is true for everybody and all time. Admittedly within karma theory, getting magic is a karma accelerator for good or ill.
I suppose each religion or belief system has their extremists, who are very rigid on what they believe in.
 
I've always thought of magical systems as languages (hats off to Ptah); each is different but each communicates with the universe. There are runes, yantras, magic squares, glyphs, sigils --every variety of magical symbol, and even different versions of grimoires like the Key of Solomon with slightly different variations of symbols and content and yet they have all been believed to be efficacious. Heck some ancient magicians invoked in every language at once and even cursed and threatened recalcitrant supernatural beings.. There are even things like Enochian and the Alphabet of Desire. Abramelin tells Abraham that the symbols his angel gave him are meant for him and that each aspirant would get their own symbols. This can free one up to create their own magical symbols and concepts as can be seen in its far extreme in "Chaos Magic". Just as their are different vehicles for attainment in some systems --like Buddhism, one can search within and cobble up a special vehicle --a magic art car! As each person is different, so their path will be slightly different. This isn't to say that one can't just learn the language of a particular system and communicate with that --as that is what most people do --with religion as well. Do your own thing! :pipe: I used to really like the occult, but now I'm about not exposing myself to things that might have unforseen long-term consequences.
 
Meanwhile, some of my most fortunate real-life plot twists have been unforeseen with long-term (happy) consequences.
Like being flipped upsidedown by a giant, cosmic spatula.
 
I know that digging up four year old threads is bad, mkay - but this is my wheelhouse. I've spent thirty years researching how and indeed why magic works. I finally finished writing my book "The Engineering of Coincidence: a scientific explanation of magic" at the end of last year, and this month I was lucky enough to have it reviewed in this month's FT.

I say "lucky" but I did magic for it, so I would count this a successful event.

As I say to people "If the explanation could be put on a t-shirt, I'd be selling t-shirts instead", but the rough idea is this:

Imagine the multiverse, each possibility spreading out into a 'tree' of other possibilities. Now imagine that all of that tree exists at once (the 'timeless multiverse'), and it is a limitation of ours (and physics :) )that only allows us to see the single path we take through it, like a person playing through a choose-your-own-adventure book.

Normally, you choose to do things and select your path normally and think nothing of it. But, under certain circumstances using certain methods, it is possible to choose paths for which there seem to be no causal connection.

The point being is that you do not change the universe; you move to the place where it is changed.

Most of the famous problems with quantum physics are because people don't appreciate that, because of this, they are figure and ground problems.
 
I know that digging up four year old threads is bad, mkay - but this is my wheelhouse. I've spent thirty years researching how and indeed why magic works. I finally finished writing my book "The Engineering of Coincidence: a scientific explanation of magic" at the end of last year, and this month I was lucky enough to have it reviewed in this month's FT.

I say "lucky" but I did magic for it, so I would count this a successful event.

As I say to people "If the explanation could be put on a t-shirt, I'd be selling t-shirts instead", but the rough idea is this:

Imagine the multiverse, each possibility spreading out into a 'tree' of other possibilities. Now imagine that all of that tree exists at once (the 'timeless multiverse'), and it is a limitation of ours (and physics :) )that only allows us to see the single path we take through it, like a person playing through a choose-your-own-adventure book.

Normally, you choose to do things and select your path normally and think nothing of it. But, under certain circumstances using certain methods, it is possible to choose paths for which there seem to be no causal connection.

The point being is that you do not change the universe; you move to the place where it is changed.

Most of the famous problems with quantum physics are because people don't appreciate that, because of this, they are figure and ground problems.
Intriguing!
 
I know that digging up four year old threads is bad, mkay - but this is my wheelhouse. I've spent thirty years researching how and indeed why magic works. I finally finished writing my book "The Engineering of Coincidence: a scientific explanation of magic" at the end of last year, and this month I was lucky enough to have it reviewed in this month's FT.

I say "lucky" but I did magic for it, so I would count this a successful event.

As I say to people "If the explanation could be put on a t-shirt, I'd be selling t-shirts instead", but the rough idea is this:

Imagine the multiverse, each possibility spreading out into a 'tree' of other possibilities. Now imagine that all of that tree exists at once (the 'timeless multiverse'), and it is a limitation of ours (and physics :) )that only allows us to see the single path we take through it, like a person playing through a choose-your-own-adventure book.

Normally, you choose to do things and select your path normally and think nothing of it. But, under certain circumstances using certain methods, it is possible to choose paths for which there seem to be no causal connection.

The point being is that you do not change the universe; you move to the place where it is changed.

Most of the famous problems with quantum physics are because people don't appreciate that, because of this, they are figure and ground problems.

No, it's just because nobody knows how quantum physics work.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opinion/sunday/quantum-physics.html?auth=login-google

I get it though.
 
I had a friend a long time ago who didn't necessarily believe in magick but told me that he once put a curse on someone he hated and who was being nasty to others and that the person went onto killing themselves.

My mother, now 80, had a very difficult upbringing and has carried a lot of the resultant problems into adulthood and old age. She appears to believe sincerely that she is a witch. (She separated from my dad 0ver 50 years ago. He also believes she's a witch, but he bases this on his own selective interpretation of a different data set!)

I can think of at least 2 examples of when my mother has believed she cast a spell and caused harm.

1) I was a kid in the back of the car on the motorway. My stepdad was driving, my mum was in the front passenger seat. A car overtook us at high speed and cut in front of us aggressively. As it pulled in front of us, smoke and "bits" came from it. Whether it was a serious engine fault, or the exhaust dropping off, or a tyre blowout I can't say. All I remember is that while my stepdad was swearing, braking and swerving, my mother was screaming, "I didn't say anything! I didn't say anything!" After everyone had calmed down a bit, she was still desperate to explain that although she had thought to herself, "I hope your car blows up!" she had not said it out loud, so it was not her fault.

2) She used to work at a bed and breakfast/farmhouse holidays place where the guests could go for a day's horse riding. She was chatting to one of the guests and he made a sarcastic (but I think jokey) comment. My mother said, "I hope you fall off your horse and break your arm." Later that day he fell of his horse and broke his arm. My mother has repeatedly expressed a feeling of guilt that she had caused it.

There are other less spectacular examples, but the gist of her "magic" as she sees it is that she thinks or says ill of someone, and exactly what she thinks/says happens to them.

My own view is that she had a very unhappy childhood, she is very imaginative, and she may well have fantasised about being able to get rid of her problems "magically". Probably most kids do at some stage in their development. As an adult — even now, at 80 — she is quite childlike about some things. She is also full of anger and resentment. Add to that a dash of confirmation bias, and you get a story of how it "always" happens. I have heard her say a lot of deeply unpleasant things about a wide range of people, and most of them have not come to pass.
 
No, it's just because nobody knows how quantum physics work.
It gets a lot easier to understand if you look at it the right way :D
Physics is full of stuff where you only come to the right conclusions when you discard assumptions and interpret what the experiment is trying to tell you, everything from quantum physics to "does the Sun go around the Earth?" (SPOILER: No it doesn't :D )
To quote Wojciech Zurek, the discoverer of quantum decoherence: "The only 'failure' of quantum theory is its inability to provide a natural framework that can accommodate our prejudices about the workings of the universe."
It's true that no-one really knows which interpretation of the well-worn quantum experiments is correct, but there are interpretations which produce simpler explanations.
 
Zurek, the discoverer of quantum decoherence: "The only 'failure' of quantum theory is its inability to provide a natural framework that can accommodate our prejudices about the workings of the universe."
I agree with that and would add that physics and cannon science generally can not accommodate many legitimate alternative frameworks until it relaxes on the the vocabulary. I suppose something similar could be said of established magical ontologies. Rent in twain since the ‘reformation’, these branches of physical observation and manipulation really ought to refriend. That said, if they don’t, magic seems the more likely of the two to strengthen, as it has recently without ANY acknowledgement from sciencism. The aged/ossified limb will break before the young/juiced up limb.
 
Could you explain what that means, for I am a pandacracker of very little brain :conf2:
Figure and ground means asking what is the object, and which is the background in a scene.
A classic example is the face/vase picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase
Is it two faces or is it a vase?
When I said problems in quantum physics were a figure and ground problem, I meant that many of the paradoxes of quantum physics can stem from the assumption that it is the universe that changes whilst the observer just observes. If you look at it as the universe already containing every possibility, existing in a massive, branching 'tree', and the observer experiencing change by moving down the tree from branch to branch, quantum physics can look a lot more straightforward.
 
I agree with that and would add that physics and cannon science generally can not accommodate many legitimate alternative frameworks until it relaxes on the the vocabulary. I suppose something similar could be said of established magical ontologies.
Have you read Alan Moore's 'Fossil Angels'?
Fossil Angels by Alan Moore
 
There are other less spectacular examples, but the gist of her "magic" as she sees it is that she thinks or says ill of someone, and exactly what she thinks/says happens to them.

My old dear reckons that if someone behaves badly towards her she needn't get upset because they will soon die. This is because it's happened, lots of times. I have known some of the people concerned.

This most likely works because having a nasty attitude and pointlessly creating enemies are a stupid way to live. People who do this are no doubt thick in other ways, like being careless with their health or personal safety.
Belligerent people are often insecure and nervous and may self-medicate by smoking and drinking. Reckless people who bully others might drive aggressively. These are all dangerous habits.

This has happened in my own life too, where I've hated someone and they've died quite quickly. I can't take the credit though, it was just their bad luck.
Beside which, not everyone I despise is dead yet! ;)
 
My old dear reckons that if someone behaves badly towards her she needn't get upset because they will soon die. This is because it's happened, lots of times. I have known some of the people concerned.

This most likely works because having a nasty attitude and pointlessly creating enemies are a stupid way to live. People who do this are no doubt thick in other ways, like being careless with their health or personal safety.
Belligerent people are often insecure and nervous and may self-medicate by smoking and drinking. Reckless people who bully others might drive aggressively. These are all dangerous habits.

This has happened in my own life too, where I've hated someone and they've died quite quickly. I can't take the credit though, it was just their bad luck.
Beside which, not everyone I despise is dead yet! ;)
I was in a local football club bar one Saturday evening in the early’90s with two work colleagues.One of them was obviously gay,not sure if that’s an okay thing to say but just trying to set the scene.
An old man who ran the bar asked us to leave after about an hour, we asked why and he said “we don’t want your types in here, families come in here”,obviously referring to my friend. My friend told him to drop dead and he did the week after.
I’m sure the man died because he was old and was in ill health. More of a coincidence I’d say.
 
My friend told him to drop dead and he did the week after.
I’m sure the man died because he was old and was in ill health. More of a coincidence I’d say.
To turn it on its head, had your friend not said that, would you have even remembered it beyond the bar owner being a git who died not long after?

We remember correlations. We don't remember it when it doesn't correlate - eg we've all thought of someone then the phone's rang and it's them, or they've appeared out of a shop doorway at that instant, etc, but we don't recall when we've thought of them and they haven't suddenly manifested independently. It's all part of our innate "looking for patterns" psychology, which makes humans ace but also a PITA when investigating Fortean stuff :) .
 
I was in a local football club bar one Saturday evening in the early’90s with two work colleagues.One of them was obviously gay,not sure if that’s an okay thing to say but just trying to set the scene.
An old man who ran the bar asked us to leave after about an hour, we asked why and he said “we don’t want your types in here, families come in here”,obviously referring to my friend. My friend told him to drop dead and he did the week after.
I’m sure the man died because he was old and was in ill health. More of a coincidence I’d say.

A very happy coincidence! :D
Made me smile anyway.
 
A relation who worked in health care (as did I for many years) told me that people who were grumpy and unpleasant were often that way because they had heart trouble. I hadn't heard that.

While I don't believe it for a minute it would certainly explain a lot!
 
On Saturday, I came home to find a van parked outside my house. I've seen it before, a heap of crap that a local company use solely for advertising purposes with all of the business details emblazoned on all sides. They just leave it where they can for weeks at a time before enough people complain and it moves on. I was not happy with this because not only was it taking up parking space, it looks a bloody mess.

I phoned the number on the side of the van to explain that I would like it moved from the front of my property, but office hours were Mon - Fri, so I was stuck with it. After initially being extremely pissed off, I decided it would be better for my health if I simply tried to forget about it. I've just been getting back into meditation and I realised there was little I could do, so I would stay calm and let it be.

I'd looked at a book recommendation that @Moth Twiceborn made somewhere on these forums in the last couple of days, and in the few pages I read I saw something that even I could do.

On Sunday morning's meditation, I visualized the parking space outside my house as empty and kept repeating to myself 'you'll be gone soon'. This really made me feel a lot better about the situation and I was able to enjoy the rest of the day.

This morning (Monday) I was loafing about at home when I heard the bang. Dashing to the front window, I saw that a council van had smashed the wing mirror off the offending vehicle. They stopped (not always a given on my street) and I was able to hear the council worker as he phoned the number on the van to explain to the owner what had happened.

I had intended to phone or email again today to complain but after this I thought I'd wait and see what happened.

The van was driven away at 7:00 PM.
 
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