Magnetic Fields: Detection & Measurement

Joharp

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#31
Xanatic wrote: What is the source of the claim that the Earth's magnetic field was twice as strong 4000 years ago?
There are many scientific papers on the waxing and waning of the earths magnetic field and its relationship with field reversal, but this one contains some definitive data.
https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevie...eld-intensity-circa-3000-years-ago-mLr3rbCp2W

Coal wrote: You're going to get into the interaction of three-dimensional vector fields and that was pretty hard maths (at least it was for me some 25 years back).
That's where you lose me. I only want to see if there are any anomalies within the time/data sets that I record. According to the data already gathered by Devereux, Mereaux, Burke and Halberg, the z-axis appears the most pertinent where megaliths are concerned, so this is what I intend to monitor.
 

Joharp

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#32
I Irmintrude, sorry, I just haven't had time to check out Christopher Knight, but the mention of fire and rocks has my interest.
John
 

Ermintruder

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#33
According to the data already gathered by Devereux, Mereaux, Burke and Halberg, the z-axis appears the most pertinent where megaliths are concerned,
The z-axis representing the vertical spatial component, then? Assuming x and y axes are flatland plan-views of the ground and liths...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetometer

"A magnetic compass is designed to give a horizontal bearing direction, whereas a vector magnetometer measures both the magnitude and direction of the total magnetic field. Three orthogonal sensors are required to measure the components of the magnetic field in all three dimensions.

They are also rated as "absolute" if the strength of the field can be calibrated from their own known internal constants or "relative" if they need to be calibrated by reference to a known field".

I could make a 'relative' flux-gate magnetometer, I reckon, in a couple of days. And if I had to do a survival-level one, it would be three mutually-orthoganal compasses, calibrated in positive/negative decades, and a bamboo tripod/metre stick/quadrats and shifts of compass-logging spotters (human data-transducers)
 

Anonymous-50446

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#34
The z-axis representing the vertical spatial component, then? Assuming x and y axes are flatland plan-views of the ground and liths...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetometer

"A magnetic compass is designed to give a horizontal bearing direction, whereas a vector magnetometer measures both the magnitude and direction of the total magnetic field. Three orthogonal sensors are required to measure the components of the magnetic field in all three dimensions.

They are also rated as "absolute" if the strength of the field can be calibrated from their own known internal constants or "relative" if they need to be calibrated by reference to a known field".

I could make a 'relative' flux-gate magnetometer, I reckon, in a couple of days. And if I had to do a survival-level one, it would be three mutually-orthoganal compasses, calibrated in positive/negative decades, and a bamboo tripod/metre stick/quadrats and shifts of compass-logging spotters (human data-transducers)
Horrifying, truly horrifying...

I assume then, if one were to take a series of measurements in a three dimensional space, to form a matrix in x,y,z (say a 5m cube of space with measurements 0.5m apart in each dimension) one ought to be able to resolve * such a matrix of vectors into the component magnetic fields that are making up the composite one being measured.


* Although were you to ask me how to do this mathematically I'd probably back away brandishing the religious icon of your choice, muttering "No, get back you fiend..."
 

Joharp

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#35
This is the best explanation I've found...
A fluxgate magnetometer is a device that measures the intensity and orientation of magnetic lines of flux . Fluxgate magnetometers have been used by robotic space probes to analyze, map and monitor the magnetic fields of the earth and other planets. They are also used in geological prospecting, aerospace navigation, underwater navigation, land navigation and submarine detection.
The heart of the fluxgate magnetometer is a ferromagnetic core surrounded by two coils of wire in a configuration resembling a transformer. Alternating current ( AC ) is passed through one coil, called the primary, producing an alternating magnetic field that induces AC in the other coil, called the secondary. The intensity and phase of the AC in the secondary are constantly measured. When a change occurs in the external magnetic field, the output of the secondary coil changes. The extent and phase of this change can be analyzed to determine the intensity and orientation of the flux lines. http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/fluxgate-magnetometer
Please tell me if I am reading this correctly... when the sensor of the magnetometer is held in a fixed orientation at a given location (the vertical/z-axis in my case) it will measure the strength of the field and any fluxes in that strength. So micropulsations, or ULF waves, are fluxes in the strength of the geomagnetic field at any given location/axis?
 

bakelite brain

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#36
Maybe this thread has got a bit muddled, or maybe it's me that's muddled! Anyway...

As stated previously, a standard compass will not detect electromagnetic fields for the reasons given, not even those from 50 Hz power lines - unless you get right up to the steel pylon and then that's what will deflect the needle!

A compass is far too insensitive to pick up subtle variations in magnetic fields around monoliths - even if there are any. There is talk of "measuring" these fields in this thread. Unfortunately this needs quite sophisticated equipment.

I built a "UFO detector" (OK, it was just a magnetometer) that did go off numerous times due to earth's magnetic filed variations during a magnetic storm following a strong solar CME in October 2014. This used a 1490 hall Effect solid-state device which is intended to be an electronic version of a compass needle. But even this would not be able to detect the fields you suggest, let alone be capable of any "measurements".

I like the idea in the original post, but unfortunately I just doubt Joharp will find any equipment at a sensible price that will come close to what is needed.

Bakelite Brain
 
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Joharp

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#37
Irmintrude wrote some time ago: I am aware of the fairly well-known work of Devereux, but I'm afraid Mereaux, Burke and Halberg are unknown to me. Shall look them up, when I've more time.
John Burke and Kaj Halberg wrote the book "Seeds of Knowledge Stone of Plenty", not sure about the theory, but the Seed aspect is interesting from a ritual perspective, as is the mass of geomagnetic and telluric data they provide. Pierre Mereaux carried out lifetime of analysis at Carnac, the only English Translations of his work are to be found here...
http://www.neara.org/images/what/Strong_Carnac_part_1__35_2.pdf
http://www.neara.org/images/what/Strong_Carnac_part_2__35_2.pdf
Add the data from these two studies to my research and the findings of the Dragon Project, and the link between the geomagnetic field and megaliths is compelling. As I've already indicated, the geomagnetic component that interests me is these ULF waves, because they not only induced in the field by sunspot activity, but also by seismic activity here on earth; the latter being pertinent to Carnac and many other sacred locations.
John
 

Joharp

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#38
Hi Bakelite
your still wrong about compass needles not being deflected by ULF waves, see my link above.
Your are right about the price of fluxgate magnetometer :( which is why I'm trying to borrow one :banghead:
 

bakelite brain

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#39
Hi Bakelite
you're still wrong about compass needles not being deflected by ULF waves, see my link above.
Sorry, not sure which link you are referring to.

Compass needles will only respond to magnetic fields strong enough and changing slowly enough to overcome their inertia.

Put them in an electromagnetic field (regardless of frequency) and the most they might do is act as receiving antennas, i.e. develop small electric currents which are induced in them because the needle is an electrical conductor, not because it is magnetic.
 

Ermintruder

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#40
Considerations for DIY magnetometer builders
http://perso.infonie.be/j.g.delannoy/BAT/IntroductiontoMagnetometerTechnology.pdf

A magnetometer kit for €191
http://www.aurora-service.eu/magnetometer-original-page/ (which either @bakelite brain or I could probably build quite quickly...)

A more-detailed variation of the Aurora kit
http://www.reeve.com/MagnetometerM2.htm

A PC/laptop-based sensor kit
http://www.fluxgate-magnetometer.com/products/3-axis-magnetometer/

A very-detailed magnetometer self-construction tale
http://www.alexmumm.de/pgProtonMagnetometer_en.htm
 

Joharp

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#41
Thanks fore the links Irmintrude

It was an eye opener reading through the aurora self-build page, so many problems to overcome :fckpc:. It was especially illuminating to note the things that can effect a magnetometers readings; besides the obvious, I was surprised to see that temperature could be a problem. You've given me some reading to do, but if your offer to build one still stands then we need to talk further, perhaps a group could be formed? My contribution would be to monitor megaliths sites, during the periods suggested by my research, i.e. dawn and dusk, and feed that data back to the group for publication and discussion here on the forum, what do you think?
 

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#42
I'm very much looking forward to seeing the data @Joharp

One further observation. I used to do radiated EMC testing in an open field (pre-approvals) and one of the oddties that I (not the first to see it) is that background electrical noise varies during the day and is lowest in the early AM, often rising 3dB over the course of the day. It's probably just due to 'everything being turned on' as the world wakes up, but it might be worth bearing in mind.
 

Ermintruder

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#43
is that background electrical noise varies during the day and is lowest in the early AM, often rising 3dB over the course of the day
Surely the causitive here is solar background (either direct radiation, or secondary absorbed/released thermal molecular exitation?). I'd be seriously worried if anthropogenic EMC clutter was consistently outgunning the sun's generative contribution.

, and feed that data back to the group for publication and discussion here on the forum, what do you think?
Oh, for sure, please do. But can you blag a loan of a data-logging flux-gate magnetometer? With an exportable output?
 

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#44
When testing sensitive devices where one had to keep the noise down in order to get a true reading of the unit's sensitivity we always conducted such testing in a screen room. I wonder if some of the solar effects you mention come from the receiver sensitivity equation (KTB) in dBm/Hz. K =Boltzmann's constant, T = ambient temperature in degrees Kelvin, B = 3dB bandwidth. so if the temperature rises the noise floor would rise as well. Of course you have to add in the noise contribution od the device in dB.

Example BW = 1 MHz, K = 1.3865E-23, T =290 degrees Kelvin
10log(1MHz*1.38065E-23*290)+30 the +30 is needed to convert to dBm ~ -114 dBm/Hz

So an increase in ambient temperature can produce a small increase in the noise floor. I don't know if this helps. I knw solar flares can increase outside radiation and mess up radio transmission as well.
 

eburacum

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#45
I'm a little confused about the reason for amateur magnetometry around ancient monuments. Archaeologists routinely carry out magnetic surveys of sites, and they can use these surveys to find hidden features in the location.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_survey_(archaeology)

But the things that cause these variations in magnetic field are the artifacts, structures and ground disturbances put there by the ancient peoples; these readings don't indicate that the site was already anomalous before these structures were built, or that the ancient people could detect these magnetic fields in any way.

Am I missing something?
 

Joharp

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#46
@eburacum wrote: Am I missing something?
Yes you are. I'm not searching for disturbances in the remanent magnetism of subterranean sediments or the remanent magnetism found in rocks, megaliths, or buried artefacts. What I wish to monitor are the ULF waves that travel along our geomagnetic field lines until the reach the surface of the earth. These particular pulsations are induced by the solar winds buffeting the earths field high up in the magnetophere. They can also be induced in our geomagnetic field lines by siesmic activity within the earth. The physical sciences are currently playing catchup to try and understand how these ULF geomagnetic waves impact our electrical systems and how they interface with life on earth.
Several studies, undertaken largely during the daytime, have already indicated the presence of anomalous ULF pulsations at megalithic sites. Indeed, the extensive survey carried out by John Burke and Kaj Halberg appears to indicate that ancient people chose the location of their megaliths in order to utilise these geomagnetic pulsations. Whilst I don't agree with their "seed enhancing" theory to explain this link, I do find their geomagnetic data fascinating for other reasons. In order to validate my thesis I therefore wish to monitor these pulsations during the period of dawn and dusk; these being the principal times for ritual activity across the whole of the ancient world.

@Ermintrude wrote: Oh, for sure, please do. But can you blag a loan of a data-logging flux-gate magnetometer? With an exportable output?
I'm trying, but if I fail my next course of action is to try and influence someone with this kit to carry out these tests themselves.

The above book "seed of Knowledge Stone of Plenty" by John Burke and Kaj Halberg provides some useful tips on how to monitor, not only these ULF magnetic waves, but also the telluric waves found at henge sites... and before you ask, I'm not on a commission :(.
John
 

eburacum

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#47
Well, okay, so long as you don't confine yourself to measuring flux as megalithic sites. You need to do plenty of control studies too; measure the flux in council estates, on traffic roundabouts,and in modern henges like this one
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=22515

The aim of such studies should not to confirm the mysterious effects, which may be easy - but to determine if they really are confined to ancient sites, and not caused by quotidian human disturbances to the magnetic environment in general. You need to find out if this thesis is falsifiable, and not just the product of confirmation bias (which it almost certainly is).
 

bakelite brain

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#48
...What I wish to monitor are the ULF waves that travel along our geomagnetic field lines until the reach the surface of the earth. These particular pulsations are induced by the solar winds buffeting the earths field high up in the magnetophere...
Ahh... It's a bit clearer to me now what you want to do.

Maybe you should be considering an ELF or VLF receiver? These are typically used for listening to the earth's natural electromagnetic radiation at these frequencies. I have no idea if anyone has ever attempted to ascertain whether megalithic sites (or ley lines) attenuate or amplify these signals.

You can record the sounds from the receiver and there will usually be some sort of signal strength indicator which may be more use than a magnetometer.
 

Ermintruder

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#49
I therefore wish to monitor these pulsations during the period of dawn and dusk; these being the principal times for ritual activity across the whole of the ancient world.
An interesting resonance jumps out at me, shared presumably by other radical radioheads on FTMB (@Jim / @bakelite brain / @Doc / @Andy_X who have I missed?)

http://www.conservapedia.com/Radio_propagation
Ionosphere
The ionosphere is just a bit of charged atoms, or ions, in the upper atmosphere. They get energy from the sun during the day when the sun shines, and lose that energy at night after the sun has set. The higher the sun's activity levels the more charged they become. Solar flares can cause a great increase in the ionosphere, as can sun spots. You will get the furthest range at dusk or dawn than you will at other times due to the angles between you, the sun and the other station. In general the longer distances will be towards the direction of the sun.

Sheer coincidence. Of course. Or is it?
 

bakelite brain

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#50
You will get the furthest range at dusk or dawn than you will at other times due to the angles between you, the sun and the other station.
Kind of true sometimes, as the previous para in that Wikipedia article suggests.

Just listen to mediumwave at night. In the UK it's full of European stations not heard in the day, so at night on mediumwave you get much more reception distance.

But the opposite is true at night on shortwave, above say 10 MHz. But that depends upon solar cycle, season, latitude, etc., etc.

Dusk/dawn grey-line propagation is another subject entirely...

That Wikipedia article is a fair primer as an introduction to radio-wave propagation, but, many many books have been written on the subject; many of those only for the 3 MHz to 30 MHz bit!
 

Ermintruder

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#52
Dusk/dawn grey-line propagation is another subject entirely...
But, specifically, I'm noting the coincidental / arguably-propritious similarities in respect of purported increases in allegedly-measureable radiofrequency effects from standing stones at dawn/dusk, and co-relating this (putatively) with the LF spectrum propagation increases at these same times.....the so-called 'grey line' effect.

Even if there were to be a measureable (and proven.... @eburacum , all caveats and modifiers acknowledged) similarity in timeline, and in 'amplitude of effect', this may may (as stated earlier) just boil-down to stone solar gain and mundane thermal primary effects generating slight increases in background (or localised molecular) noise.

Alternatively: it might be an intuitive recognition of demonstrable field-characteristics similarities, unifying monolithic magnetometrical observations & datasets with those of LF/ULF atmospheric radiowave measurements (from both conventional geological and artificially-generated sources).
 

Joharp

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#53
@Bakelite-brain wrote: Maybe you should be considering an ELF or VLF receiver? These are typically used for listening to the earth's natural electromagnetic radiation at these frequencies. I have no idea if anyone has ever attempted to ascertain whether megalithic sites (or ley lines) attenuate or amplify these signals.
Hi Bakelite, are you saying that you can monitor the sound made by ULF geomagnetic waves?

The only analysis of sound at megaliths, that I know of, was the ultrasound study carried out by the Dragon Project; its findings were interesting but inconclusive.

I haven't had time to read it fully but check this site out... http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html

What is "Dusk/dawn grey-line propagation"
 

Ermintruder

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#54
What is "Dusk/dawn grey-line propagation"
"The "grey line" is a band around the Earth that separates daylight from darkness. Propagation along the grey line is very efficient. One major reason for this is that the D layer, which absorbs HF signals, disappears rapidly on the sunset side of the grey line, and it has not yet built upon the sunrise side."

http://dx.qsl.net/propagation/greyline.html



The solar terminator, racing around the globe is defined as:

A terminator, twilight zone or "grey line" is a moving line that separates the illuminated day side and the dark night side of a planetary body. A terminator is defined as the locus of points on a Moon or planet where the line through a Sun is tangent.

But @Joharp , please note that this is conventionally-interpreted as being in respect of ionospheric/skywave propagation at HF RF (high frequency radiofrequency transmissions)....I'm not aware of ULF EM (ultra-low frequency electromagnetic geogenic fields) being similarly-affected. Surely someone somewhere has a definitive answer to this....and if there isn't, there's someone I know quite well that may have some well-informed perspectives..

(See also "Working the Grey-Line/Twilight Zone")
http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-propa5.htm

Radio is intimately-interwoven with many Fortean core interests and concepts. The overlap and possible connections are multi-layered, and curiously disjointed.
 
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bakelite brain

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#55
Hi Jo,

ULF is defined as frequencies of 300 to 3000 Hz. Human hearing is about 20 Hz to 20 kHz (varies with age), so once ULF electromagnetic (EM) waves are turned into sound they can be heard directly. But they are not of course sound waves, they are EM waves of a frequency that falls into the sound spectrum. Not sure what your background is, so forgive me if you know this, but for example, imagine the EM field surrounding the wires to a loudspeaker. These are signals generated by electrical signals that have the frequency of the sound they reproduce.

The ELF signals in the fascinating link you gave are 3 to 30 Hz, so are mostly inaudible, hence the need for them to be speeded up to make them audible.

All these signals can be displayed on computers which often give more useful data than trying to hear them if you know what you're looking at.

What we usually think of as EM waves (radio waves) have a frequency much, much higher than sound so they are used quite differently.

Dusk/dawn grey-line propagation applies mostly to HF radio (3 MHz to 30 MHz) and relates to enhanced (sometimes unexpectedly so) strengths of radio signals many hundreds or thousands of miles away within the day/night twilight zone. In my experience it's very unpredictable; one needs to be using the right frequency at the right time in the right place. With hindsight, it is probably irrelevant to your research, although day/night differences via other mechanisms probably apply.
 

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#56
This appropriately named Grey-line is also where an interesting geomagnetic phenomenon occurs. On the sunward side of the earth the geomagnetic field lines are compressed and strengthened, but on the night side of the earth they are stretched and weakened. So as a spot on the earth rotates towards the sun at dawn the stretched/weak geomagnetic field lines suddenly snap back into compression and strengthen.
To quote John Burke and Kaj Halberg; "In areas with certain geological characteristic's, this strengthening can be extremely dramatic and create powerful effects."

Hi Bakelite
It would save a great deal of time and money if a radio receiver could be shown to accurately record, and playback, the activity of ULF waves in geomagnetic field lines. Has anybody done it?

Hi Irmintrude
you wrote: Radio is intimately-interwoven with many Fortean core interests and concepts. The overlap and possible connections are multi-layered, and curiously disjointed
I've heard of tree trilling before, but never explored it.

Another phenomenon that has come to mind since reading Kurts link above, are telluric currents. Apparently they are influenced by ULF geomagnetic waves and Henge sites? Question; do these telluric currents have a radio signature?

John
 

Joharp

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#57
I didn't mean to confuse matters in my last post with the mention of telluric currents. Yes, these weak currents are induced in the ground at dawn when the geomagnetic field lines suddenly become compressed and strengthen, a result of electromagnetic induction I understand. A voltmeter capable of measuring millivolts of DC can quite easily monitor this activity. What this illustrates however, is an unlikely chain of electromagnetic events caused by the sun rising each day; an unseen pulse that life has inexplicably become attuned to. I once spent the night in a hermits cave and awoke the next morning just before dawn. Lying in my sleeping bag I peered out through the cave mouth and watched the first rays of the sun appear in the sky, when I suddenly experienced the weirdest of sensations, as if something had passed up through the rock, and through my body?
 

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#58
when I suddenly experienced the weirdest of sensations, as if something had passed up through the rock, and through my body?
Fascinating...could you have been insulated from the stone, by you sleeping-bag and eg a foam mat? Were you in this state when you felt this sensation, seperated from the stone?

Or was it also as you touched/bridged the stone by hand and/or foot?

A fast, sweeping impression? Or a slow rise? It could of course have been just a psychogenic reaction to seeing the sun (life cannot fail to welcome it's rays)
 

bakelite brain

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#59
Hi Bakelite
It would save a great deal of time and money if a radio receiver could be shown to accurately record, and playback, the activity of ULF waves in geomagnetic field lines. Has anybody done it?
If you mean around neolithic sites - I'm not aware of anyone doing that. Ideally you'd need base-line measurements taken somewhere else to assess differences. Or better still, identical equipment used simultaneously in some sort of 'space diversity' set up.

For more help on how you might progress with your work, I strongly suggest you post a question on:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/VLF_Group/info

Someone will surely be able to help, or point you to other groups who may be able to.
 

Joharp

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#60
Hi brain
I can't agree more, base-line equipment checks are an essential prerequisite to any such study, otherwise any data collected would mean diddly.
Thanks for the advice. See the link below which sheds some light on the problem...

The ionospheric plasma is continually perturbed
by ultra-low frequency (ULF; 1–100 mHz) plasma waves
that are incident from the magnetosphere. In this paper we
present a combined experimental and modeling study of the
variation in radio frequency of signals propagating in the
ionosphere due to the interaction of ULF wave energy with
the ionospheric plasma.
Due to spatial averaging effects, the spatial structure of ULF waves
measured in the ionosphere may be quite different to that obtained
using ground based magnetometer arrays. https://lra.le.ac.uk/bitstream/2381/8134/3/Modulation_of_radio_frequency_signals_....pdf
Hi Irmintrude
Sorry, no elevation of the body or anything like that, merely a tingling throughout the whole of my body. The experience took place around 1960. The sleeping bag was an old army thing, its neck was pulled over my head so I could peep out of it. I was using my rucksack as a pillow so I wasn't touching the rock in any way.

John
 
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