• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Allegedly Old Traditions Actually Invented More Recently

Timble2

Imaginary Person
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
6,047
Location
In a Liminal Zone
It looks as though yet another ancinet tradition was invented in the 19th century. Are there any traditions which aren't imaginative fictions?

At: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1351360,00.html

Tower's raven mythology may be a Victorian flight of fantasy
Maev Kennedy, arts and heritage correspondent
Monday November 15, 2004
The Guardian

As every school child knows, there have been ravens at the Tower of London since time immemorial, and if they ever leave, the monarchy and the tower itself will fall.

The story is one of the most cherished of the tower's tales, and the current seven ravens stalk about the grounds very much as if they own the place.

It is impossible to say what bearing the ravens' health will have on Britain becoming a republic, but one thing does seem certain - they have only been there for a little more than 100 years.

A historian has scoured the records for 1,000 years, and can trace the ravens back no further than the late 19th century. Geoff Parnell, official Tower of London historian and a member of the Royal Armouries staff, is convinced they are merely a typical piece of Victorian romance.

Worse, Dr Parnell has found the statement in the records "there are none left" - and yet the monarchy and the tower have more or less survived.

A spokeswoman for Historic Royal Palaces, which runs the tower and has a special ravens section on its website, swallowed hard and said firmly: "This is a very interesting piece of research, which adds to the history of the tower. So much of the appearance of the tower that we see today does date back to the Victorian period that it is quite appropriate that the ravens should be a Victorian legend."

Dr Parnell has added another layer to the legend: his research suggests some ravens may have been a punning gift to the tower by the Earl of Dunraven, an archaeologist and antiquarian fascinated by Celtic raven myths, who added ravens to his family coat of arms, or by his son the fourth earl.

The tower was raven-less by the second world war, when some were killed in bombing, and others pined and died of shock. The myth was already so powerful, however, that when the tower reopened to the public, on January 1 1946, ravens were back in place.

Dr Parnell first became interested in the ravens story when working on an exhibition about the tower menagerie, kept by generations of monarchs for at least 600 years until it became the foundation of London Zoo. There were hawks, lions, leopards, monkeys and even a polar bear - but ravens were conspicuously absent.

The earliest reference he found was 1895, in a piece in the RSPCA journal, The Animal World. One Edith Hawthorn referred to the tower's pet cat being tormented by the ravens, Jenny and a nameless mate.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004
 
Last edited by a moderator:
See The Invention of Tradition, edited by Eric Hobsbawm. There's a wonderful essay in it by Hugh Trevor-Roper, "The Invention of Tradition: The Highland Tradition of Scotland" which outlines how the kilt was actually invented by an Englishman in 1730 or so, while the idea of a certain tartan or group of tartans representing a Scottish clan dates back to the creation of Highland regiments in the 19th c. This romantic folly was happily seized upon by the textile industry, promoted by Sir Walter Scott, and boosted by the surge of interest in "romantic" national folklore. David Cannadine also contributes a piece showing how the pomp and ceremony surrounding the royal family was created in the 1870s as a canny PR move.
 
Leaferne said:
See The Invention of Tradition, edited by Eric Hobsbawm. There's a wonderful essay in it by Hugh Trevor-Roper, "The Invention of Tradition: The Highland Tradition of Scotland" which outlines how the kilt was actually invented by an Englishman in 1730 or so, while the idea of a certain tartan or group of tartans representing a Scottish clan dates back to the creation of Highland regiments in the 19th c.....

Thanks, Leaferne, I read this a few years back, and couldn't remember the title or author.
 
I seem to remember that the head of Bran is buried under the Tower and if that is ever remmoved the realm will fail. The ravens are from the Celtic bits of the realm, Wales, Man, Cornwall and Scotland.
 
drjbrennan said:
I seem to remember that the head of Bran is buried under the Tower and if that is ever remmoved the realm will fail. The ravens are from the Celtic bits of the realm, Wales, Man, Cornwall and Scotland.

From Lady Charlotte Guest's slightly dodgy translation:

And Bendigeid Vran commanded them that they should cut off his head. "And take you my head," said he, "and bear it even unto the White Mount in London, and bury it there with the face towards France. And so long as it lies there, no enemy shall ever land on the island." So they cut off his head, and these seven went forward therewith.

Bendigeid Vran = Bran the Blessed

At: http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/mabinogion/branwen.htm and lots of other places.

Doesn't mention the ravens, though I've just realised (while googling) that Bran is a Welsh word for raven.

But Arthur dug up Bran's head, so that raven is no more.

I'm wondering now if that was the link between ravens and the Tower.

I've just run myself round in a circle haven't I?
 
iirc bran can also be translated as king
 
Wiki seems to go along with the 1883 first mention of ravens, based apparently on this:
http://www.animalsandsociety.org/assets ... 737_s4.pdf

Written by Boria Sax, a self-styled 'Independent Scholar', of New York.
Abstract
According to popular belief, Charles II of England (reigned 1660-1685) once heard a prophecy that if ravens left the Tower of London it would “fall,” so he ordered that the wings of seven ravens in the Tower be trimmed. Until recently, this claim was not challenged even in scholarly
literature. Th ere are, however, no allusions to the Tower Ravens before the end of the nineteenth century.

The ravens, today meticulously cared for by Yeoman Warders, are largely an invented tradition, designed to give an impression of continuity with the past. This article examines the few known references, both graphic and textual, to the Tower Ravens through 1906.

It concludes that the ravens were originally brought in to dramatize the alleged site of executions at the Tower.
Although not accorded great significance at first, legends that would eventually make the ravens mascots of Britain began outside of the Tower.
Sax has his own page on Wiki, according to which one of his books, City of Ravens: The True History of the Legendary Birds in the Tower of London, was due out last year.

But strange to say, links to the book do not appear to work! But its publisher has this page about it:
http://www.ducknet.co.uk/general/title. ... sue_id=563
 
No ravens here, but otherwise the story goes with the thread title:

The BBC's Owen Bennett Jones is in India to cover the election. In Varanasi he found himself on a boat being rowed down the Ganges towards a Hindu ceremony....


There in the fading evening light six priests standing on plinths on the riverbank were surrounded by thousands of people sitting on ancient stone steps that led down to the water.
The priests - some with long hair tied back behind their necks - were dressed in white robes from head to toe.

They started by blowing into some conch shells creating a low timeless sound and then came the bells and the incense swirling through the air. As the rhythmic chanting lulled the spectators into a state of spiritual relaxation, attendants produced lamps, each one with a thousand candles.
On the Ganges itself some candles in small bowls were launched on the calm wide waters - they floated into distance, diminishing specks of light.

"I am surprised I have never seen these images on TV," I remarked to another journalist on the boat.
"Oh! There are festivals all over India. They are happening all the time," he replied.

Back on the riverbank the priests had started whirling some sort of ancient looking contraptions in the air.
The bell ringing was more intense now, boys pulling on strings that made a whole row of bells high in the air, chime in time with the chanting.

And then to my side there appeared a convoy of wooden boats - a long procession meandering up the Ganges.
All eyes turned to them and on board there were children dressed as gods, their smiling, proud faces frames in swirls of gold and red braid.
If ever there were a physical manifestation of the romanticisation of the east which Westerners are so often accused of then here it was before my eyes.
"You can see how Orientalism got under way", I thought. "It probably started right here."

I wrote it all up. The festival provided exactly the sort of colour I need to brighten up what might otherwise have been a rather dry report on the politics of the constituency. I sent it off to London.

My editor - a man who knows India well having lived there for many years - sent me an e-mail.
"A touch of the 'Bharat darshan'," he chided gently, "look it up."

I did.
"Religion of the ancients," Google said.
I wondered what he meant. That it was all a bit ritualistic perhaps in the context of modern India. A throwback rather than a look ahead.

A couple of days later I was sitting in the BBC studio in Delhi with a young Indian journalist who had come in to comment on the election campaign. He heard my report in his headphones.
"You were in Varanasi?" he asked.
"Yes."
"And you recorded something at the ceremony they have on the river bank there."
"That's right."
"In a boat?"
"Yes. It was wonderful."
"You know the whole thing was invented by the manager of a luxury hotel in Varanasi about 20 years ago. He was trying to drum up the number of tourists coming to town."
"I see. Right."

Journalists get lied to so often that they generally end up fairly cynical, or perhaps to put it more kindly, sceptical. And let me say straightaway that I am not accepting the journalist's account without question.

Even if I went back to Varanasi and investigated the matter I have no doubt that some people would insist the ceremony has been going on for centuries.
That's the way with these things. But still it was a bit of a shocker. Perhaps you can never quite go far enough in questioning why things are happening - what purpose they really serve.

I emailed my boss.
"About that ceremony," I said. "You might well have been right."
I told him what the journalist in the studio had said.
"Ah yes," he replied. "The invention of tradition. Happens everywhere." ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27049295

Here in Cornwall on feast days and holy days some men like to dress up in the traditional Cornish kilt.
Which is odd, because the Cornish tartan is younger than I am!
 
According to Wiki, the Cornish kilt is even younger than I thought:
First created in 1963, the Cornish National tartan was designed by the poet E.E. Morton Nance, nephew of Robert Morton Nance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_kilts_and_tartans
The black and white elements are linked to the Cornish Flag, the flag of St Piran, but even that was first described in the 19th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Piran%27s_Flag

All in all, little solid history, plus a fair dollop of romanticising and wishful thinking!
 
rynner2 said:
...Sax has his own page on Wiki, according to which one of his books, City of Ravens: The True History of the Legendary Birds in the Tower of London, was due out last year.

But strange to say, links to the book do not appear to work! But its publisher has this page about it:
http://www.ducknet.co.uk/general/title. ... sue_id=563

Boria Sax is the author of Crow - an edition in Reaktion Books excellent Animal series. I own a couple of others - and would unhesitatingly buy the entire series if I had the spare cash.

Timble2 said:
It looks as though yet another ancinet tradition was invented in the 19th century. Are there any traditions which aren't imaginative fictions?...

In London Lore Steve Roud suggests that the more recent tradition associated with the ravens may actually be an extension of a much older one. Lions had resided in the Tower menagerie since 1235 (they were called 'leopards' but are apparently much more likely to have been lions) and there is apparently documentary evidence to suggest that by the early 1700's there was a tradition that 'if the lions of the Tower die then the sovereign of the day would also die'.

The lions were moved on to more suitable accommodation in the 1830's and I suppose the theory is that the nagging folkloric gap left by their absence was eventually filled by the ravens.
 
By a spooky coincidence, Cornish kilts are mentioned in this article:

Racist? No, a much-loved and maligned English tradition
by Will Straw, Labour's candidate in Rossendale and Darwen

Like hundreds of people across Rossendale, my wife, six-month old son and I went to Bacup yesterday to watch the Britannia Coconutters–a Morris dancing troop which date back at least 150 years.

Every Easter Saturday, members perform dances for ten hours from one side of the town to the other in a tradition known as “Beating the Bounds”. The dance, which marks the return of spring, is believed to trace its roots to Moorish pirates who settled in Cornwall and became employed in local mining.

As more mines and quarries opened in Lancashire in the 18th and 19th centuries, a few Cornishmen are said to have headed to the area, taking with them mining expertise and the costume of red and white kilts, breeches, bonnets and blackened faces.

Bacup’s fortunes have changed over the years. From a bustling town of 22,000 a century ago making a living from mining, weaving and shoemaking, the population halved as Britain’s industrial heritage declined in the post-war period and was decimated in the 1980s. Through all these changes, including two world wars, the Easter celebration has endured.
There is now a sense of excitement in the area following a £2 million Heritage Lottery Fund grant which will help refurbish historical buildings and tidy up a number of shop fronts.

The town centre yesterday was packed with a bouncy castle, a busy market and an Easter bonnet competition, among many other attractions. Locals and tourists came together to share in the history and enjoy the spectacle. There was even a correspondent from the Wall Street Journal.

After the dance in the town centre I caught up with Neville Earnshaw, the Coconutters’ treasurer, who I had interviewed for a magazine article a couple of weeks ago. I tweeted a picture of the two of us in a local pub. Imagine my surprise when I checked back on Twitter three hours later to see a string of accusations describing me – and the Coconutters – as racist.

Nothing could be further from the truth. This was clear not least from the number of tweets from outraged Rossendale residents defending their tradition and urging our accusers to mug up on their history before making false accusations.

As many small towns throughout Britain struggle to maintain their identity against a tide of national retail chains, betting shops and fast food outlets, Bacup’s annual dance provides a window into a previous era. But it’s traditions from the past which give communities a sense of common identity for the present and the future. May the Coconutters continue for many years to come.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... ition.html

Hmm! Moorish pirates did once prowl the coasts of Cornwall, looking to capture people for ransom or to be sold as slaves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_pirates

I never heard of any of these Moors working down the mines, however! Still, it makes a good 'tradition', I suppose... :roll:
 
The black-face tradition is maybe worth further exploration but the collieries were not much, if anything, to do with it. Lancashire parades were captured on early films with bands of grass-skirted participants, an echo of the more official Empire celebrations they may have witnessed in newspapers and magazines, if not in the flesh. It has often been explained as a survival of Morris (Moorish) Dancing traditions but the popularity of the theme was surely an expression of Imperial might.

I'm sure rynner is right to detect a bogus history being foisted on us here. I'm sure there are accounts of May Games and festivities in Lancashire where black-faced Moors were featured, long before the supposed influx of Cornishmen.
 
"A separatist folk song, Flower of Scotland, was adopted as a de facto national anthem in the mid-1990s. Like so much of Scottish nationalism, it’s an invented tradition – the song was written by The Corries in 1967. ;)

At the time, lyrics asking Scots to “rise now and be a nation again” seemed a bit wacky. But by the 1990s, the same lyric was emblazoned on car stickers."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -gold.html
 
The Mingulay Boat Song is beautiful. Traditional tune with, I think, 1930s lyrics.

Minguley itself was abandoned earlier in the century. Doesn't stop people claiming the song was sung by the fishermen returning to the island at dusk.

"Invented" tradition can be powerful stuff and more satisfactory than historical truth. the power of myth is, I suspect limitless.

Himmler's Ahnenerbe is a negative example.

The revent rise of (much) British neopaganism is a more positive one! Symbols and traditions have been revived, resurrected and reinterpreted. Academic study suggests often the foundation is tenuous or non-existent but does it really matter?
 
Frideswide said:
The Mingulay Boat Song is beautiful. Traditional tune with, I think, 1930s lyrics.

Minguley itself was abandoned earlier in the century. Doesn't stop people claiming the song was sung by the fishermen returning to the island at dusk.
I've sung the Mingulay Boat song while sailing past the island. :D

(Something I don't suppose I'll ever get the chance to do again... :( )
 
Now that is class!

Have you gone through Corryvrecken? It draws me and yet I'm too scared of it to go and look!
 
Being an ex-pat local, one of my favourite inventions is the famous 'train station with the longest name'. Until the mid-1800s, it was simply Llanfair Pwyllgwyngyll (which isn't really that long, by welsh standards), and was altered to its current length in possibly the finest ever example of marketing strategy.
When the Chester-Holyhead railway opened, there was very little reason for anyone to disembark at the village of LlanfairPG (arguably there still isn't), so the locals decided to give them a reason, adding numerous syllables to their name which have no root in ancient history at all. That was it - no pier, no castle or cathedral, no Roman fort, not even a windmill - just a long name. Not only did it work incredibly well 150 years ago, it still works now (at least on visitors from the US and central Europe). All that tourism, for the cost of a few litres of paint. Brilliant.
 
Frideswide said:
Have you gone through Corryvrecken? It draws me and yet I'm too scared of it to go and look!
No, but I've sailed past it several times. (I was too scared, too!)

But I once went through the Raz de Sein, in Brittany, in what I thought were good calm conditions, only to end up swept uncontrollably by the tide through some scary overfalls.

And photos of the Raz at full flow, in a gale, are horrendous!! If the pilot book warns you against such places, take heed!
 
That is something else... found a video of it in storm at

http://tiny.cc/zwtsjx

Oddly there seems to be a choir singing, presumably a heavenly one :lol:

There's a watchable film that has Corryvrecken in it. Black and white I think but I can't remember the name.
 
Frideswide said:
That is something else... found a video of it in storm at

http://tiny.cc/zwtsjx

Oddly there seems to be a choir singing, presumably a heavenly one :lol:
Good find! The heavely choir is a subtle reminder that if you go out on the Raz de Sein in bad weather, that might be the last thing you do on earth! ;)
 
That is something else... found a video of it in storm at

http://tiny.cc/zwtsjx

Oddly there seems to be a choir singing, presumably a heavenly one :lol:

There's a watchable film that has Corryvrecken in it. Black and white I think but I can't remember the name.

Blimey, that's a fearsome sea. Living in the village shown at the end would be bracing...

I think the film you're talking about could be 'I Know Where I'm Going' a Powell & Pressburger film. The heiress wants to get to an island [Jura?] to meet her fiance & pig headedly sets off in stormy conditions against all advice. She has to be rescued from the whirlpool by the laird who she later falls in love with.
 
I think the film you're talking about could be 'I Know Where I'm Going' a Powell & Pressburger film. The heiress wants to get to an island [Jura?] to meet her fiance & pig headedly sets off in stormy conditions against all advice. She has to be rescued from the whirlpool by the laird who she later falls in love with.

YES! that's it.... Wendy Hillier? glorious actress.
 
Back
Top