Mammoths

Swifty

doesn't negotiate with terriers
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
31,551
Reaction score
49,631
Points
289
We went fossil hunting on West Runton beach yesterday and found some small interesting bits and pieces including a possible bit of mammoth tusk, we might go back again today if the weather improves ..



The EDP website mentions a fossil hunting workshop over the last week or so ..

mammothwestrunton.jpg


http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/environ...mammoth_find_on_north_norfolk_coast_1_4652637
 

gerhard1

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
904
Reaction score
955
Points
104
There are reports from Russia that wooly mammoths have have been seen in the 1920's. They were in the remoter areas of Siberia and the inhabitants seem to have known about them for ages.
 

Anonymous-50446

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
8,837
Reaction score
10,910
Points
279
There are reports from Russia that wooly mammoths have have been seen in the 1920's. They were in the remoter areas of Siberia and the inhabitants seem to have known about them for ages.
Ooh..cite your source, most interesting.
 

oldrover

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
4,024
Reaction score
1,524
Points
174
Mammoths appear in BH's 'On the Track of Unknown Animals', pretty much all of the stories will be retellings of those anecdotes. The world is apparently full of unknown creatures, but there aren't that many accounts to go round.
 

gerhard1

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
904
Reaction score
955
Points
104
No promises, but I'll see what I can do.
All right; there is a reasonably credible account from the book that I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum, Strange Stories of Alaska and the Yukon. The author or editor is Ed Ferrell. Sightings of a living mastodon or mammoth were reported in the Far North as late as the 1870's. But the ones from Siberia have been more recent.

I'll have to do a bit more digging on those.
 

hunck

Antediluvian
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
6,578
Reaction score
10,236
Points
299
Location
Hobbs End

This story was dissected on R4 Inside Science & declared to be a false news/fluff story without any basis in fact. They have sequenced mammoth DNA but apparently not in a complete structurally sound form & there's some way to go with this. In addition, the story was about gestating a mammoth embryo in an artificial womb, not in a living elephant. The problem with this is artificial wombs don't exist. If it was going to happen in 2 years there would be peer reviewable papers to examine. There aren't any.

One of the programme participants said it wouldn't happen within 10 years. That's not to say it won't eventually..
 

GNC

King-Sized Canary
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
32,945
Reaction score
21,219
Points
334
Just put a sheepskin rug on an elephant and there you go.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
53,260
Reaction score
30,394
Points
314
Location
Eblana
Will you help Hancock's heroic attempt to solve the Mammoth mystery?

Graham Hancock Wants Your Help Proving Alaskan Mammoths Died in One Massive Catastrophe
8/30/2017 40 Comments

Just days after recovering from a life-threatening seizure and coma, alternative history researcher Graham Hancock put out a call to crowdsource research for a forthcoming book. Hancock asked his fans to help him research the question of whether wooly mammoths faced a catastrophic extinction event in Alaska at the end of the Ice Age. Hancock is particularly interested in the work of Frank Hibben and Froelich Rainey from the 1930s and 1940s, and the articles that he cites sounded familiar to me. It turns out there was a good reason for that. The sources Hancock uses are the same ones that creationists have spent the better part of half a century using to allege that the mammoths were “flash frozen” by a catastrophic change in temperature. I explored those claims last year (here and here), but Hancock has now offered a slightly more sophisticated version of the earlier claim in defense of his current hobbyhorse, that a comet slammed into the Earth at the end of the Younger Dryas, destroying Atlantis.

Hancock has long been interested in flash-frozen mammoths. The story appears in Fingerprints of the Gods (1995), where Hancock first used it as evidence of a sudden and catastrophic “pole shift” that froze the mammoths in the space of an hour or two as the entire Earth’s crust slipped over the planet’s surface.

The story of the flash-frozen mammoths goes back a long way, before it was even a part of creationist and fringe history lore. It began with jokes about Alaskan restaurants serving mammoth steaks, derived, ultimately, from a Russian account of what happened when the Berskova mammoth was unearthed in Siberia in 1901. As a 1929 investigation showed, the flesh at first seemed fresh, but after thawing smelled so bad that only the sled dogs would eat it. The only scientist to try the meat immediately became violently ill. Nevertheless, anti-imperial propagandists painted a portrait of the Tsar himself dining on mammoth steaks and prehistoric grains in a decadent feast of extinct foods. ...

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/g...skan-mammoths-died-in-one-massive-catastrophe
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim

Jim

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Jan 19, 2016
Messages
1,184
Reaction score
1,381
Points
164
Location
NYS, USA
O take a lot of what John Hancock says with a grain of salt
 

hunck

Antediluvian
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
6,578
Reaction score
10,236
Points
299
Location
Hobbs End
Will you help Hancock's heroic attempt to solve the Mammoth mystery?

Er...No.

According to this article, mammoths were on Wrangel Island in the Russian Arctic 4,300 years ago.

The island separated from the Russian mainland about 12,000 years ago by rising sea levels, taking a group of mammoths along with it. But by that time, according to the fossil record, mammoth populations were already starting to die off.

“We don’t know why,” Love Dalen, the senior author of the report and an associate professor of biology at the Swedish Museum of Natural History in Stockholm, told Nicholas Bakalar for the New York Times. “Human hunting, changes in the environment, warming of the temperatures. But it happens everywhere — that’s for sure — and at the same time.”

By comparing DNA taken from a 4,300 year-old mammoth tooth found on Wrangel Island with that of a 45,000 year-old soft tissue sample found in northern Siberia, the researchers discovered that there had been two massive die-offs before the last mammoths went extinct. Wooly mammoths had already survived a massive die-off about 300,000 years ago; it took the species around 100,000 years to recover. After the second die-off, about 12,000 years ago, the survivors numbered in the hundreds, according to Reuters. The Wrangel Island mammoths likely survived for about 6,000 years after the mainland mammoths died out. Dalen’s group also found that the Wrangel Island mammoth population’s isolation was severely inbred, which likely contributed to their extinction.
 

MetroGnome

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
162
Reaction score
214
Points
44
As far as I can work out, Hancock is a loon.
 

blessmycottonsocks

Antediluvian
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
6,227
Reaction score
11,469
Points
289
Location
Wessex and Mercia
I bought his 'Flooded Kingdoms' book and found that well researched and compelling. Much of his other theories are far too deeply buried in pseudo- science.
Given the evidence for mammoths having survived (albeit at the cost of reduced size) until possibly the 2nd millennium BC, this theory sounds like a non-starter.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
53,260
Reaction score
30,394
Points
314
Location
Eblana
Were they pushed by the female mammoths?

Genetic Study Suggests More Male Mammoths Fell Into 'Natural Death Traps' Than Females
11/02/2017 02:30:00 PM

Researchers who have sexed 98 woolly mammoth specimens collected from various parts of Siberia have discovered that the fossilized remains more often came from males of the species than females. They speculate that this skewed sex ratio -- seven out of every ten specimens examined belonged to males -- exists in the fossil record because inexperienced male mammoths more often travelled alone and got themselves killed by falling into natural traps that made their preservation more likely.

"Most bones, tusks, and teeth from mammoths and other Ice Age animals haven't survived," said Love Dalen of the Swedish Museum of Natural History. "It is highly likely that the remains that are found in Siberia these days have been preserved because they have been buried, and thus protected from weathering. The new findings imply that male mammoths more often died in a way that meant their remains were buried, perhaps by falling through lake ice in winter or getting stuck in bogs."

"We were very surprised because there was no reason to expect a sex bias in the fossil record," added Patrícia Pecnerova, the study's first author, also at the Swedish Museum of Natural History. "Since the ratio of females to males was likely balanced at birth, we had to consider explanations that involved better preservation of male remains."

The researchers made the discovery in the midst of a larger, long-term effort to examine the genomes of woolly mammoth populations. For some of the analyses, they needed to know the sex of individuals. They initially set out to ...
Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blog...y-suggests-more-male.html#kjLhXsvmJPAeYPH3.99
 

ChrisBoardman

Justified & Ancient
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
721
Points
129
Were they pushed by the female mammoths?

Genetic Study Suggests More Male Mammoths Fell Into 'Natural Death Traps' Than Females
11/02/2017 02:30:00 PM

Researchers who have sexed 98 woolly mammoth specimens collected from various parts of Siberia have discovered that the fossilized remains more often came from males of the species than females. They speculate that this skewed sex ratio -- seven out of every ten specimens examined belonged to males -- exists in the fossil record because inexperienced male mammoths more often travelled alone and got themselves killed by falling into natural traps that made their preservation more likely.

"Most bones, tusks, and teeth from mammoths and other Ice Age animals haven't survived," said Love Dalen of the Swedish Museum of Natural History. "It is highly likely that the remains that are found in Siberia these days have been preserved because they have been buried, and thus protected from weathering. The new findings imply that male mammoths more often died in a way that meant their remains were buried, perhaps by falling through lake ice in winter or getting stuck in bogs."

"We were very surprised because there was no reason to expect a sex bias in the fossil record," added Patrícia Pecnerova, the study's first author, also at the Swedish Museum of Natural History. "Since the ratio of females to males was likely balanced at birth, we had to consider explanations that involved better preservation of male remains."

The researchers made the discovery in the midst of a larger, long-term effort to examine the genomes of woolly mammoth populations. For some of the analyses, they needed to know the sex of individuals. They initially set out to ...
Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/11/genetic-study-suggests-more-male.html#kjLhXsvmJPAeYPH3.99

 

JamesWhitehead

Piffle Prospector
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
13,844
Reaction score
13,785
Points
334
The females all died in their obscure residences, awaiting that jolly "Honey, I'm home!" trumpet call, as they prepared to scurry in from the kitchen with a tray of hot brownies . . . :violin:
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
53,260
Reaction score
30,394
Points
314
Location
Eblana
Interesting review of what looks like an interesting book.

Review of "Discovering the Mammoth" by John J. McKay
11/28/2017

DISCOVERING THE MAMMOTH: A TALE OF GIANTS, UNICORNS, IVORY, AND THE BIRTH OF A NEW SCIENCE
John J. McKay | 256 pages | Pegasus | 2017 | ISBN 978-1-68177-424-4 | $27.95


More than a century ago, every educated person understood that the bones of giants were actually the remains of fossilized elephant species, including the woolly mammoth, the mastodon, the dwarf elephant, and their various cousins. This information was readily available in most books of natural history, and even churchmen, who considered giants to be an article of faith, felt the need to acknowledge the obviousness of the fact before trying to argue why theirparticular giant was the exception to the general rule. Yet after the Second World War, this connection between fossils evidence and mythological fantasy no longer seemed obvious, and when Adrienne Mayor reintroduced it around 2000, the suggestion that fossils had a relationship to mythology was greeted as fresh and new.

One of the questions I have thought quite a bit about is how a well-established theory about the origin of giant claims could fall into such disrepair. We are today living with the consequences of that retrenchment. Among the creationists and the gigantologists and the Nephilim theorists of today, for example, there is a widespread if false belief that no mammoth bones have ever been documented in modern times to have been mistaken for those of a humanoid giant. This is a strange claim, considering the repeated and documented proof that men of science and ignorant bumpkins alike have mistaken the large bones of elephants for those of human giants.

In his new book Discovering the Mammoth: A Tale of Giants, Unicorns, Ivory, and the Birth of a New Science (Pegasus, 2017), John J. McKay relates the history of humanity’s efforts to understand the remains of the mammoth and its proboscidean cousins in a clear and compelling narrative about the very human effort to explain the seemingly inexplicable. I regret that it has taken me longer than I would have liked to get to reading and reviewing the book, which came out during the summer. Sometimes, time slips away from me! The book itself, McKay writes, grew out of his interest in the outré and the bizarre: ...

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-discovering-the-mammoth-by-john-j-mckay
 

Jim

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Jan 19, 2016
Messages
1,184
Reaction score
1,381
Points
164
Location
NYS, USA
Interesting review of what looks like an interesting book.

Review of "Discovering the Mammoth" by John J. McKay
11/28/2017

DISCOVERING THE MAMMOTH: A TALE OF GIANTS, UNICORNS, IVORY, AND THE BIRTH OF A NEW SCIENCE
John J. McKay | 256 pages | Pegasus | 2017 | ISBN 978-1-68177-424-4 | $27.95


More than a century ago, every educated person understood that the bones of giants were actually the remains of fossilized elephant species, including the woolly mammoth, the mastodon, the dwarf elephant, and their various cousins. This information was readily available in most books of natural history, and even churchmen, who considered giants to be an article of faith, felt the need to acknowledge the obviousness of the fact before trying to argue why theirparticular giant was the exception to the general rule. Yet after the Second World War, this connection between fossils evidence and mythological fantasy no longer seemed obvious, and when Adrienne Mayor reintroduced it around 2000, the suggestion that fossils had a relationship to mythology was greeted as fresh and new.

One of the questions I have thought quite a bit about is how a well-established theory about the origin of giant claims could fall into such disrepair. We are today living with the consequences of that retrenchment. Among the creationists and the gigantologists and the Nephilim theorists of today, for example, there is a widespread if false belief that no mammoth bones have ever been documented in modern times to have been mistaken for those of a humanoid giant. This is a strange claim, considering the repeated and documented proof that men of science and ignorant bumpkins alike have mistaken the large bones of elephants for those of human giants.

In his new book Discovering the Mammoth: A Tale of Giants, Unicorns, Ivory, and the Birth of a New Science (Pegasus, 2017), John J. McKay relates the history of humanity’s efforts to understand the remains of the mammoth and its proboscidean cousins in a clear and compelling narrative about the very human effort to explain the seemingly inexplicable. I regret that it has taken me longer than I would have liked to get to reading and reviewing the book, which came out during the summer. Sometimes, time slips away from me! The book itself, McKay writes, grew out of his interest in the outré and the bizarre: ...

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-discovering-the-mammoth-by-john-j-mckay

I like the scientific method used here. People creationist or otherwise often seem ready to except some wild claim or finding.
Points in case: the Piltdown man (for years it was thought to be a prehistoric type giant man) and the so-called alien skulls found in Peru (that were likely a resulted of a binding process).
Being a sceptic I don't rule out the possibility that some myths that might contain a bit of truth. However due diligence is required here (not sensationalism).
 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
8,961
Reaction score
20,148
Points
334

Polar bear grabs 50,000-year-old breakfast - a hairy leg of woolly mammoth found by scientists:

inside_leg.jpg


The polar bear raided a camp site of scientists on Kotelny island where scientists had gathered a front leg of a unique ‘pygmy mammoth’ as well as the northern-most skull of a woolly rhinoceros ever found and other bones from extinct predators.

Mammoth expert Dr Albert Protopopov said: 'At about 4 am our research fellow Semyon Yakovlev woke from some kind of noise. I looked out of the tent, and there was a polar bear.

‘It grabbed the mammoth's leg with his teeth, and dragged it out of the permafrost (where scientists had stored their find). Semyon shouted, and we jumped up.

‘We began to make noise, rattled utensils, shouted, shot several times from the flare gun. And finally the bear ran away.'

The beast dropped the leg - perhaps the most significant mammoth trophy of the summer scientific season.

It is hoped analysis of the limb will prove the existence of a separate species of pygmy or mini-mammoths.

https://siberiantimes.com/other/oth...f-extinct-woolly-mammoth-found-by-scientists/

maximus otter
 

blessmycottonsocks

Antediluvian
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
6,227
Reaction score
11,469
Points
289
Location
Wessex and Mercia
Now that mammoth DNA has been successfully inserted into the genome of living Asian elephants, the reality of a baby pachyderm being maybe 3 or 4% mammoth has become a reality.

https://www.iflscience.com/plants-a...ly-insert-woolly-mammoth-dna-elephant-genome/

But to claim that the mammoth has been de-extincted, would a baby have to have 100% mammoth DNA, or would 51% suffice? The latter goal looks like a distinct possibility before very long.
 

EnolaGaia

I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...
Staff member
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
24,290
Reaction score
36,734
Points
314
Location
Out of Bounds
The last woolly mammoths are believed to have survived until circa 4,000 years ago on Wrangel Island. Newly published research indicates this last relict population had stable living conditions until the very end, when something (or multiple somethings) occurred in a short timespan.
The last mammoths died on a remote island

The last woolly mammoths lived on Wrangel Island in the Arctic Ocean; they died out 4,000 years ago within a very short time. An international research team from the Universities of Helsinki and Tübingen and the Russian Academy of Sciences has now reconstructed the scenario that could have led to the mammoths' extinction. The researchers believe a combination of isolated habitat and extreme weather events, and even the spread of prehistoric man may have sealed the ancient giants' fate. The study has been published in the latest edition of Quaternary Science Reviews.
FULL STORY: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191007081750.htm
 

EnolaGaia

I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...
Staff member
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
24,290
Reaction score
36,734
Points
314
Location
Out of Bounds
Here's the bibliographic data and abstract from the newly published Wrangel Island research. The full article is available at the link below.
Thriving or surviving? The isotopic record of the Wrangel Island woolly mammoth population

LauraArppe, Juha A.Karhu, Sergey Vartanyan, Dorothée G. Drucker, Heli Etu-Sihvola, Hervé Bocherens
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2019.105884

Abstract

The world's last population of woolly mammoths (Mammuthus primigenius) lived on Wrangel Island persisting well into the Holocene, going extinct at ca. 4000 cal BP. According to the frequency of radiocarbon dated mammoth remains from the island, the extinction appears fairly abrupt. This study investigates the ecology of the Wrangel Island mammoth population by means of carbon, nitrogen and sulfur isotope analyses. We report new isotope data on 77 radiocarbon dated mammoth specimens from Wrangel Island and Siberia, and evaluate them in relation to previously published isotope data for Pleistocene mammoths from Beringia and lower latitude Eurasia, and the other insular Holocene mammoth population from St. Paul Island. Contrary to prior suggestions of gradual habitat deterioration, the nitrogen isotope values of the Wrangel Island mammoths do not support a decline in forage quality/quantity, and are in fact very similar to their north Beringian forebears right to the end. However, compared to Siberian mammoths, those from Wrangel Island show a difference in their energy economy as judged by the carbon isotope values of structural carbonate, possibly representing a lower need of adaptive strategies for survival in extreme cold. Increased mid-Holocene weathering of rock formations in the central mountains is suggested by sulfur isotope values. Scenarios related to water quality problems stemming from increased weathering, and a possibility of a catastrophic starvation event as a cause of, or contributing factor in their demise are discussed.
FULL PAPER: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379119301398?via=ihub
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
53,260
Reaction score
30,394
Points
314
Location
Eblana
Mexican Mammoths.

Archaeologists have found the bones of about 60 mammoths at an airport under construction north of Mexico City, near human-built “traps” where more than a dozen mammoths were found last year.

Both discoveries reveal how appealing the area — once a shallow lake — was for mammoths.

The National Institute of Anthropology and History said there was no immediate evidence that the 60 newly discovered mammoths at the old Santa Lucia military air base had been butchered by humans.

Institute archaeologist Pedro Sanchez Nava said the giant herbivores had probably just got stuck in the mud of an ancient lake, once known as Xaltocan and now disappeared.

But the bones will be subject to further study, because Mr Sanchez Nava said humans might have carved up the mammoths once they got stuck.

About 15 human burials with simple offerings were found nearby, but they probably dated from around 500 to 1,000 years ago, long after the mammoths had disappeared.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...-of-dozens-of-mammoths-in-mexico-1001184.html
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
53,260
Reaction score
30,394
Points
314
Location
Eblana
Interesting find.

Russian scientists are working to retrieve the well-preserved skeleton of a woolly mammoth, which has some ligaments still attached to it, from a lake in northern Siberia.

Fragments of the skeleton were found by local reindeer herders in the shallows of Pechevalavato Lake on the Yamalo-Nenets region a few days ago. They found part of the animal's skull, the lower jaw, several ribs, and a foot fragment with sinews still intact.

Woolly mammoths are thought to have died out around 10,000 years ago, although scientists think small groups of them may have lived on longer in Alaska and on Russia's Wrangel Island off the Siberian coast.

Russian television stations on Friday showed scientists looking for fragments of the skeleton in the lakeside silt.

Scientists have retrieved more bones and also located more massive fragments protruding from the silt. They said it would take significant time and special equipment to recover the rest of the skeleton—if it had all survived in position.

https://phys.org/news/2020-07-well-preserved-mammoth-skeleton-siberian-lake.html

See Also:

https://www.livescience.com/woolly-mammoth-skeleton-poop-siberia.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lord Lucan

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
3,715
Reaction score
10,635
Points
209
Interesting find.

Russian scientists are working to retrieve the well-preserved skeleton of a woolly mammoth, which has some ligaments still attached to it, from a lake in northern Siberia.

Fragments of the skeleton were found by local reindeer herders in the shallows of Pechevalavato Lake on the Yamalo-Nenets region a few days ago. They found part of the animal's skull, the lower jaw, several ribs, and a foot fragment with sinews still intact.

Woolly mammoths are thought to have died out around 10,000 years ago, although scientists think small groups of them may have lived on longer in Alaska and on Russia's Wrangel Island off the Siberian coast.

Russian television stations on Friday showed scientists looking for fragments of the skeleton in the lakeside silt.

Scientists have retrieved more bones and also located more massive fragments protruding from the silt. They said it would take significant time and special equipment to recover the rest of the skeleton—if it had all survived in position.

https://phys.org/news/2020-07-well-preserved-mammoth-skeleton-siberian-lake.html

An excellent find. Here's some footage:
 
Top