Manchester Canal: Corpse Repository?

[Spookdaddy]

The 'leading academic' mentioned in the original post - one and the same with the now decidedly less chatty Professor Jackson - displayed, in his original thesis, an attitude to statistics which I suspect would have most academics screaming in horror.

The figures used were harvested from the Greater Manchester area, which covers around 500 square miles, but then employed as if relevant to a relatively compact area of Manchester city centre. (Whether Prof Jackson intended this or not, that's how the press ran with it - and he seemed to have been happy to play along.)

There's a local issue with safety barriers - or the lack of them. There's a general issue with pissed people and water.

That said, there's no doubt that occasionally people meet violent ends in such environments. But you really don't need serial killers to explain the figures.

Quite frankly, it's a bit of a joke - and an irresponsible one, because it completely takes attention away from the real safety issues involved. We love a serial killer, at least we do when they're in the papers and nowhere near us, but we don't like to think that our loved ones are capable of dying because too much booze turns them into idiots.

(Did not a similar process of distraction take place a couple of years or so ago in York?)

 

[catseye]

I live near York and two of my kids live in the city. One cycles regularly to work along the riverbank. The river is prone to changing level without much warning - she's often gone out of her house to cycle and realised that the river is up over the path, and had to cycle the long way round instead.

I've got a theory that sometimes, inebriated students take the 'short way' back to their digs, ie, walking beside the river, even when the river is high enough to cover the path, thinking that 'it's only shallow, I'll just get wet feet rather than walk the extra half/mile round the road way'. But they don't take into account the current or occasional deeper patches, and end up in the water. Soaked clothing, cold and drink can take you down even when water is relatively shallow and you are a decent swimmer.

What puzzles me about the 'Manchester Canal Killer' theory is that you'd have to actually KILL your victim before you threw them into the water, otherwise you face the problem of having a victim who just swims to the bank and reports you.

I've seen drunken people around water (especially young men) and it comes as no surprise at all that a lot of them end up drowned.

 

[XEPER_]

Weird how this thread shows up in my list of new posts. I was reading a forum about Corrie Mc Keague last night and someone mentioned this exact "Pusher" story. I planned on looking it up and here this morning this thread pops up for me!
Catseye makes a great point above, people just shoved in would surely flail about and scream and swim out most of the time, not just expire quietly?

 

[Cochise]

Lord Valentine Dyall:
Good. Promise me one more thing. Never - never - go near... The canal.

Seagoon:
Why not?

Lord Valentine Dyall (fast, flaming):
Just never go near the canal, that's all! Now, you must be tired, you need rest. Eccles?

http://www.thegoonshow.net/scripts_show.asp?title=s05e06_the_canal

 

[escargot]

I've got a theory that sometimes, inebriated students take the 'short way' back to their digs, ie, walking beside the river, even when the river is high enough to cover the path, thinking that 'it's only shallow, I'll just get wet feet rather than walk the extra half/mile round the road way'.

Chatted with a fellow cyclist in the week who does a lot of canal bank biking. He reckoned he's met quite a few people who've fallen off their bikes into canals and rivers. The edges are sometimes covered in grass and look more solid than they are. If you put your foot down to stop you topple straight in.

Of course, all the cyclists he met had survived! but I bet people have died that way.

 

[Krepostnoi]

I was in Manchester city centre yesterday, took a wrong turn - Atwood Street, for those of you following along at home - and found myself facing an entry-way onto the canal towpath. I was struck by the large green poster urging people not to walk there alone at night. Clearly, there's enough concern that people have seen fit to put up at least one warning sign.

 

[catseye]

I was in Manchester city centre yesterday, took a wrong turn - Atwood Street, for those of you following along at home - and found myself facing an entry-way onto the canal towpath. I was struck by the large green poster urging people not to walk there alone at night. Clearly, there's enough concern that people have seen fit to put up at least one warning sign.

But this applies to 'natural fallers' (for want of a better description) as well as attack - if there are people with you there are people to notice you've fallen in and throw a lifebelt (if they are suitable sober and coherent enough to do so).

 

[escargot]

Canals have steep sides and tall banks. They are hard to climb out of, especially if you're drunk or otherwise less than able. If you fell into one you'd be lucky to get out safely without help.

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

The thing that puzzles me about this story is...canals are really shallow.

Most of them are about four feet deep, which why barges have flat bottoms. So unless people are dead before they go in, why don't they just stand up?

I know of two people who have drowned in the Grand Union canal where it passes through Warwick, but they were both in locks.

Is the Manchester canal unusually deep? Or have all the people fallen into locks?

 

[EnolaGaia]

The thing that puzzles me about this story is...canals are really shallow.
Most of them are about four feet deep, which why barges have flat bottoms. So unless people are dead before they go in, why don't they just stand up? ...

Four feet of water is more than enough to drown in - especially if you're stunned, unconscious, injured, disoriented, or panicked from having fallen into the water.

 

[Yithian]

Or a midget.

 

[ramonmercado]

Or a midget.

Kindly use the term vertically challenged.

 

[Cochise]

The thing that puzzles me about this story is...canals are really shallow.

Most of them are about four feet deep, which why barges have flat bottoms. So unless people are dead before they go in, why don't they just stand up?

I know of two people who have drowned in the Grand Union canal where it passes through Warwick, but they were both in locks.

Is the Manchester canal unusually deep? Or have all the people fallen into locks?

Speaking from experience (having swum in canals) the bottom is usually gluey clay. It'd be easy for a drunk to lose balance and then get disoriented.

You are now discouraged from swimming in canals because of various diseases you can acquire, but we didn't know when we were teenagers. Also, I grew up swimming - well, paddling - in the Thames before it was cleaned up - I'm probably immune.

 

[Cochise]

Kindly use the term vertically challenged.

Person of restricted growth. For those who know their Tom Sharpe.

 

[Yithian]

Kindly use the term vertically challenged.

In a canal they'd be anoxically challenged.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Kindly use the term vertically challenged.

I think, if this situation arises, the least offensive way of sorting out the issue would be for the person doing the rescuing to ask of the drownee, prior to taking any action:

Excuse me. I cannot help noticing that you appear to be in some sort of water related difficulties - which may, or may not, be exacerbated by recent alcohol intake. Before I partake of any action directed at ameliorating the potentially hazardous situation we currently find ourselves in, and in order to avoid embarrassment or offence for either party engaged in the transaction, would you mind answering the following simple question.

Are you:

a) Small

or:

b) Further away than I at first assumed.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

Further away

Sometimes a cow is just a cow! :axem:

 

[Krepostnoi]

The thing that puzzles me about this story is...canals are really shallow.

May not apply within urban confines, as the Rochdale Canal most certainly is by the time it hits, to pluck an example at random, Atwood Street.

 

[Yithian]

I think, if this situation arises, the least offensive way of sorting out the issue would be for the person doing the rescuing to ask of the drownee, prior to taking any action:

Excuse me. I cannot help noticing that you appear to be in some sort of water related difficulties - which may, or may not, be exacerbated by recent alcohol intake. Before I partake of any action directed at ameliorating the potentially hazardous situation we currently find ourselves in, and in order to avoid embarrassment or offence for either party engaged in the transaction, would you mind answering the following simple question.

Are you:

a) Small

or:

b) Further away than I at first assumed.

Reply: Gurgle, glug-glug.

 

[catseye]

I mean, if I were to decide I was going in for the 'pushing people into a canal' career opportunity, I'd have to be sure of many things:
a) that the person concerned couldn't identify me as the pusher
b) that the person concerned couldn't swim/was too inebriated to get out/that the canal was too deep or claggy bottomed to be easily escaped from
c) that nobody else was around, either close by or indeed anywhere overlooking, in order to see me pushing
d) that I could always be safely well away by the time my pushee was found.

That seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to for the fun of a splosh, doesn't it?

Why are there no cases of someone actually getting out further downstream (even as the result of a fluke 'I held on to a floating piece of wood until a passing Newfoundland dog saw me and dragged me to the bank' incidents) and saying 'someone pushed me'?

 

[Coal]

Why are there no cases of someone actually getting out further downstream (even as the result of a fluke 'I held on to a floating piece of wood until a passing Newfoundland dog saw me and dragged me to the bank' incidents) and saying 'someone pushed me'?

^this^

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

Four feet of water is more than enough to drown in - especially if you're stunned, unconscious, injured, disoriented, or panicked from having fallen into the water.

Well....yes. If you'd just stumbled in drunk the chances are you'd be able to stand-up which adds weight to the theory that there's something more sinister going on.

The gluey bottom theory (!) is an interesting one though.

According to Google though, the Manchester Ship Canal is 8 feet deep - is this the same canal?

 

[Carse]

The Manchester Ship Canal runs from the Mersey to Salford Quays and was built to allow moderately sized sea-going vessels to reach Manchester, hence it’s depth and width. The more conventionally sized waterways which run through Manchester City Centre (into which pissheads regularly fall) are the Rochdale Canal, the Bridgewater Canal and the Ashton Canal though there are also a few disused stubs around.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I live near York and two of my kids live in the city. One cycles regularly to work along the riverbank. The river is prone to changing level without much warning - she's often gone out of her house to cycle and realised that the river is up over the path, and had to cycle the long way round instead.

I've got a theory that sometimes, inebriated students take the 'short way' back to their digs, ie, walking beside the river, even when the river is high enough to cover the path, thinking that 'it's only shallow, I'll just get wet feet rather than walk the extra half/mile round the road way'. But they don't take into account the current or occasional deeper patches, and end up in the water. Soaked clothing, cold and drink can take you down even when water is relatively shallow and you are a decent swimmer.

What puzzles me about the 'Manchester Canal Killer' theory is that you'd have to actually KILL your victim before you threw them into the water, otherwise you face the problem of having a victim who just swims to the bank and reports you.

I've seen drunken people around water (especially young men) and it comes as no surprise at all that a lot of them end up drowned.

Also live close to York and sometimes have cycled through Fulford on the main rd, because the river is up.

River is not tidal above Naburn but I've heard the most dangerous points are beneath bridges where there are currents that can even drag a strong swimmer down. I'm not sure if that is really the case as it isn't tidal there..? But around the bridges is usually where the young men go in. Or judging by the flowers/memorial things that sometimes appear.

I guess it would be fairly straightforward to see if dates when people drown correlate to those times when the riveris up?

 

[David Plankton]

There's a pub on the riverbank in York that has a giant ruler in the bar which shows where the water came up to on all of the occasions it's been flooded.

 

[Spookdaddy]

There's a pub on the riverbank in York that has a giant ruler in the bar which shows where the water came up to on all of the occasions it's been flooded.

Yes, been there several times. From what I can recall it's at quite a height from the river at normal flow - the sheer volume of water involved in reaching those marks is pretty staggering.

 

[escargot]

I mean, if I were to decide I was going in for the 'pushing people into a canal' career opportunity, I'd have to be sure of many things:
a) that the person concerned couldn't identify me as the pusher
b) that the person concerned couldn't swim/was too inebriated to get out/that the canal was too deep or claggy bottomed to be easily escaped from
c) that nobody else was around, either close by or indeed anywhere overlooking, in order to see me pushing
d) that I could always be safely well away by the time my pushee was found.

That seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to for the fun of a splosh, doesn't it?

Why are there no cases of someone actually getting out further downstream (even as the result of a fluke 'I held on to a floating piece of wood until a passing Newfoundland dog saw me and dragged me to the bank' incidents) and saying 'someone pushed me'?

My feeling is that it's all about the canal/drunk people interface. If someone falls/is pushed into water when drunk, most likely face-first if pushed or when standing on the bank peeing into the canal/river, they're likely to drown very quickly.

They're taken by surprise and their reflexes are slow. If it's dark they'll be disorientated especially if drunk. The bottom of the water will be muddy or sandy or otherwise too soft to stand up in. The banks (especially of a canal) might be too steep to climb, especially for someone who is drunk/disorientated.

Even a sober person might not have the capacity to swim to a safe place and run away. Who's going to believe their story anyway, of being shoved into a canal by a stranger? Especially if they have to admit they were (as suggested above) drunk/peeing in public.

 

[David Plankton]

Yes, been there several times. From what I can recall it's at quite a height from the river at normal flow - the sheer volume of water involved in reaching those marks is pretty staggering.

I think it's the King's Arms, although the Lowther along the road has similar problems. Can't find any pictures of the flood measure.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

My feeling is that it's all about the canal/drunk people interface. If someone falls/is pushed into water when drunk, most likely face-first if pushed or when standing on the bank peeing into the canal/river, they're likely to drown very quickly.

They're taken by surprise and their reflexes are slow. If it's dark they'll be disorientated especially if drunk. The bottom of the water will be muddy or sandy or otherwise too soft to stand up in. The banks (especially of a canal) might be too steep to climb, especially for someone who is drunk/disorientated.

Even a sober person might not have the capacity to swim to a safe place and run away. Who's going to believe their story anyway, of being shoved into a canal by a stranger? Especially if they have to admit they were (as suggested above) drunk/peeing in public.

Doing genealogy I found two ancestors at different times in the 19thC who drowned in the river Aire; one, a young man and one middle aged. Inquests both times ruled they'd fallen in drunk and IIRC both died at night, walking home from the pub.

I wonder what % of the Manc victims were people with a high blood alcohol result, and whether a statistically significant % of them were stone cold sober and/or people not fitting the usual profile of the York (and other cities with rivers/canals) Found Drowneds? ie: people who aren't say men under 30...?

I saw that TV documentary about the Manc ones, and one of the victims was actually on the phone to his mum I think it was, as he was being pursued along a towpath, and IIRC the police didn't even seem to think his death was suspicious.

 

[escargot]

one of the victims was actually on the phone to his mum I think it was, as he was being pursued along a towpath, and IIRC the police didn't even seem to think his death was suspicious.

That DOES sound suspicious and worthy of further investigation.