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Manmade Climate Change: The Deeper Agenda

Cochise said:
kamalktk said:
rynner2 said:
SHAYBARSABE said:
Cochise said:
I don't know what the world is doing temperature-wise right at the moment.
Going up, here's a link to NASA data http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs_v3/
Quite so. It involves an ENORMOUS amount of data.

Anyone who thinks that a few hours perusing the 'raw data' will enable them to give a thumbs up or down to AGW is sadly deluded.

First of all 'raw data' does not mean 'accurate' date - usually the opposite! All raw data has to be calibrated, to get near the true values. This means compensating for systemtic errors.
Nevertheless, one argument has been that the raw data was not available for anyone to do their own analysis of. This argument has persisted despite the raw data being easily publicly available for quite some time, it wasn't just made available the day I posted it. It is one of the goalposts that keep getting moved. The other is that the analysis is being done incorrectly. It is up to those who claim this is so to show how it is, not to repeatedly question if they accounted for x or y without investigating if the scientists did account for x or y.

Actually, the raw data is not available on that site. It's already merged (vetted?) and otherwise processed. 'Suspicious' records have been removed.

I know perfectly well that raw data has to be processed. That is precisely what a statistician does.

Bear in mind that, in establishing whether the world is currently warming or not, we are only looking for trends. Therefore systemic errors are unlikely to effect our deliberations, assuming that they are reasonably consistent over time. The whole set of readings could be out by 10 degrees, that doesn't matter as long as it is a consistent 10 degrees. We do of course have to eliminate any ground stations that have experienced abrupt environmental change, such as the encroachment of buildings. We have to decide what constitutes 'encroachment' - it may be natural as well as man-made, such as reforestation in areas no longer economic for agriculture.

As we can see we are already in the position of having to make 'assumptions' as we may have to on many other things.

Assumptions like the above made in the process of cleaning up the data are just one of the ways in which we can modify the presentation of the results in a way to fulfil any expectation our bosses might want ;) .

Demonstrably, through honest mistake or connivance or 'observer bias', the process can make the presentation of the data less 'accurate' as well as more 'accurate'. Where 'accurate' means our best reflection of the true state of a continuum that we are only analysing by point sample.

Only the original unaltered readings are in any sense 'true', although they may also be misleading. Each transformation or selection moves them further away from the genuine measurement, although if our assumptions are complete and unfailingly correct we may improve our 'accuracy' - however it only takes one wrong or omitted assumption to produce a misleading analysis.

So that is why I want the raw data. That is where you always start.
Funnily enough, I've already provided multiple links to the raw data you say is not available. http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48718&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=438
 
Where were we in this discussion before the "raw data" subject happened?

Were we discussing a conspiracy to keep the general population from knowing that A) climate change is happening or B) climate change is not happening?

Where I live, something's happening to the climate for sure, I just have to look down the road and see the bird-of-paradise flowers in mid-winter.
 
One swallow does not make a summer. :lol:

We were still pretending that there was some real doubt about the reality of climate change.
 
SHAYBARSABE said:
Where were we in this discussion before the "raw data" subject happened?
You may well ask! :roll:

Temperatures go up, the graphs show it, but the CC deniers are experts in ignoring any graphs or figures they don't want to see, and always come up with some quibble which they claim disproves the link between increasing CO2 and global warming.

Mostly I just ignore them, but sometimes I come back with a counterblast in the hope that I annoy them as much as they irritate me! :twisted:

The "raw data" ploy proved very amusing! 8)
 
Yes, this winter has been warm in the UK so far - you should all know that means absolutely nothing. It's also been unusually wet, and that usually means warmer weather in a UK winter, but this is weather, not climate.

I have looked at those sites. What I'm looking for should be on the global historical data site, but I can only find precipitation records there - and in any case, there is no information on how the historical data has been treated for the originally disparate methods of collecting data.

This discussion became diverted into access to the temperature data because some people insist the earth is still currently warming, even though several groups of climate scientists say it isn't, including the UK Met Office. and have even gone into a faff as to why the current figures do not match the projections. They do not, of course, believe the current lull affects their theory, and to a degree they are right - a lull could be caused by any of the natural cycles that their model failed to take into consideration without proving the theory is wrong. Which is the point the DM of course failed to emphasise in its report, leading to the Met Office subsequently making denials.

I, on the other hand, think that if your model has missed out important natural cycles, then it probably is not an infallible guide to what is going to happen, nor is it of much use as a support for a theory. There are literally dozens of alternate interpretations out there, but to the believers all are produced by heretics corrupted by the oil industries. Hmm - isn't that a conspiracy theory?

Let us remember the original theory predicted _catastrophic_ warming which would have turned this planet into something like Venus, and which should have started raising the temperature radically from 1998, in the order of something like half a degree a year. By now the average temperature should be at lest 10 degrees warmer than 1998. (Which was itself an unusually warm year)

That clearly has not happened, despite the world output of CO2 continuing to rise.
 
Since it now seems that around 93% of the CO2 related warming has been absorbed by oceans, does that mean that oceanographers and marine biologists are in on the 'conspiracy' too?

And here's an article on the actual correlation between the IPCC's actual predictions and reality, since 1990. Pretty close as it turns out.
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...t/01/ipcc-global-warming-projections-accurate

IPCC model global warming projections have done much better than you think

Global warming since 1990 has fallen within the range of IPCC climate model projections

Guardian.co.uk. Dana Nuccitelli. (Climate Consensus, the 97%, hosted by the Guardian). 1 October 2013

The figure below from the 2013 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report compares the global surface warming projections made in the 1990, 1995, 2001, and 2007 IPCC reports to the temperature measurements.

ipcc_1990_2013_zpsea1daeb7.jpg


IPCC AR5 Figure 1.4. Solid lines and squares represent measured average global surface temperature changes by NASA (blue), NOAA (yellow), and the UK Hadley Centre (green). The colored shading shows the projected range of surface warming in the IPCC First Assessment Report (FAR; yellow), Second (SAR; green), Third (TAR; blue), and Fourth (AR4; red).

Since 1990, global surface temperatures have warmed at a rate of about 0.15°C per decade, within the range of model projections of about 0.10 to 0.35°C per decade. As the IPCC notes,

"global climate models generally simulate global temperatures that compare well with observations over climate timescales ... The 1990–2012 data have been shown to be consistent with the [1990 IPCC report] projections, and not consistent with zero trend from 1990 ... the trend in globally-averaged surface temperatures falls within the range of the previous IPCC projections."

What about the Naysayers?

In the weeks and months leading up to the publication of the final 2013 IPCC report, there has been a flood of opinion articles in blogs and the mainstream media claiming that the models used by the IPCC have dramatically over-predicted global warming and thus are a failure. This narrative clearly conflicts with the IPCC model-data comparison figure shown above, so what's going on?

These mistaken climate contrarian articles have all suffered from some combination of the following errors.

1) Publicizing the flawed draft IPCC model-data comparison figure

Late last year, an early draft of the IPCC report was leaked, including the first draft version of the figure shown above. The first version of the graph had some flaws, including a significant one immediately noted by statistician and climate blogger Tamino.

"The flaw is this: all the series (both projections and observations) are aligned at 1990. But observations include random year-to-year fluctuations, whereas the projections do not because the average of multiple models averages those out ... the projections should be aligned to the value due to the existing trend in observations at 1990.

Aligning the projections with a single extra-hot year makes the projections seem too hot, so observations are too cool by comparison."

In the draft version of the IPCC figure, it was simply a visual illusion that the surface temperature data appeared to be warming less slowly than the model projections, even though the measured temperature trend fell within the range of model simulations. Obviously this mistake was subsequently corrected.

This illustrates why it's a bad idea to publicize material in draft form, which by definition is a work in progress. That didn't stop Fox News, Ross McKitrick in the Financial Post, Roger Pielke Jr., the Heartland Institute, and Anthony Watts from declaring premature and unwarranted victory on behalf of climate contrarians based on the faulty draft figure.

2) Ignoring the range of model simulations

A single model run simulates just one possible future climate outcome. In reality, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes, depending on how various factors like greenhouse gas emissions and natural climate variability change. This is why climate modelers don't make predictions; they make projections, which say in scenario 'x', the climate will change in 'y' fashion. The shaded regions in the IPCC figure represent the range of outcomes from all of these individual climate model simulations.

The IPCC also illustrates the "multi-model mean," which averages together all of the individual model simulation runs. This average makes for an easy comparison with the observational data; however, there's no reason to believe the climate will follow that average path, especially in the short-term. If natural factors act to amplify human-caused global surface warming, as they did in the 1990s, the climate is likely to warm faster than the model average in the short-term. If natural factors act to dampen global surface warming, as they have in the 2000s, the climate is likely to warm more slowly than the model average.

When many model simulations are averaged together, the random natural variability in the individual model runs cancel out, and the steady human-caused global warming trend remains left over. But in reality the climate behaves like a single model simulation run, not like the average of all model runs.

This is why it's important to retain the shaded range of individual model runs, unlike Bjorn Lomborg in The Australian, Judith Curry in The Australian, Benny Peiser at GWPF, Roger Pielke Jr., David Rose in the Mail on Sunday (copied by Hayley Dixon in The Telegraph), and Der Spiegel, all of whom only considered the model average.

This group all made an additional related third error as well.

3) Cherry Picking

Most claims that the IPCC models have failed are based on surface temperature changes over the past 15 years (1998–2012). During that period, temperatures have risen about 50 percent more slowly than the multi-model average, but have remained within the range of individual model simulation runs.

However, 1998 represented an abnormally hot year at the Earth's surface due to one of the strongest El Niño events of the 20th century. Thus it represents a poor choice of a starting date to analyze the surface warming trend (selectively choosing convenient start and/or end points is also known as 'cherry picking'). For example, we can select a different 15-year period, 1992–2006, and find a surface warming trend nearly 50 percent faster than the multi-model average, as statistician Tamino helpfully illustrates in the figure below.

gisstrend12_zpsa25328a1.jpg


Global surface temperature data 1975–2012 from NASA with a linear trend (black), with trends for 1992–2006 (red) and 1998–2012 (blue).

In short, if David Rose wasn't declaring that global surface warming was accelerating out of control in 2006, then he has no business declaring that global surface warming has 'paused' in 2013. Both statements are equally wrong, based on cherry picking noisy short-term data.
IPCC models have been accurate

For 1992–2006, the natural variability of the climate amplified human-caused global surface warming, while it dampened the surface warming for 1997–2012. Over the full period, the overall warming rate has remained within the range of IPCC model projections, as the 2013 IPCC report notes.
"The long-term climate model simulations show a trend in global-mean surface temperature from 1951 to 2012 that agrees with the observed trend (very high confidence). There are, however, differences between simulated and observed trends over periods as short as 10 to 15 years (e.g., 1998 to 2012)."
The IPCC also notes that climate models have accurately simulated trends in extreme cold and heat, large-scale precipitation pattern changes, and ocean heat content (where most global warming goes). Models also now better simulate the Arctic sea ice decline, which they had previously dramatically underestimated.

All in all, the IPCC models do an impressive job accurately representing and projecting changes in the global climate, contrary to contrarian claims. In fact, the IPCC global surface warming projections have performed much better than predictions made by climate contrarians.

It's important to remember that weather predictions and climate predictions are very different. It's harder to predict the weather further into the future. With climate predictions, it's short-term variability (like unpredictable ocean cycles) that makes predictions difficult. They actually do better predicting climate changes several decades into the future, during which time the short-term fluctuations average out.

That's why climate models have a hard time predicting changes over 10–15 years, but do very well with predictions several decades into the future, as the IPCC illustrates. This is good news, because with climate change, it's these long-term changes we're worried about:

AR5_surfacetempproj_zpsc23255e4.jpg


IPCC AR5 projected global average surface temperature changes in a high emissions scenario (RCP8.5; red) and low emissions scenario (RCP2.6; blue).

Yes, fossil companies and other parties who put profit over the health of the planet have indeed been very busy shitting and pissing in the water supply and paying a lot of money to do it. The shills and shysters who help spread it for silver are bad enough, but the really contemptible ones are the ones that swallow it all and spread it for free.
 
Hmmmm...

There are plenty of people who believe that climate change is happening, but aren't quite convinced that anthropogenic climate change has been proved or is doing very much (nor are they convinced it can be at all reversed).

These people are not 'climate change deniers'. They are anthropogenic climate change skeptics.

I hear and see the words 'climate change denier' used quite freely to describe these people. It's wrong.
 
There are still people who don't believe that smoking tobacco causes lung cancer. Are they skeptics, or deniers?
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
There are still people who don't believe that smoking tobacco causes lung cancer. Are they skeptics, or deniers?

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison to make. These are completely different issues.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
There are still people who don't believe that smoking tobacco causes lung cancer. Are they skeptics, or deniers?

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison to make. These are completely different issues.
So why are the same methods and often the same organizations handling the anti-science spin on both?

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/where-theres-smoke-the-climate-change-denial-lobby/

http://climatecrocks.com/2013/02/19/study-links-tobacco-tea-party-climate-denial-and-fox-news/

They're similar issues because in both cases a sophisticated spin campaign has been organized and launched to deny the science underpinning the theory of cause and effect.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Mythopoeika said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
There are still people who don't believe that smoking tobacco causes lung cancer. Are they skeptics, or deniers?

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison to make. These are completely different issues.
So why are the same methods and often the same organizations handling the anti-science spin on both?

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/where-theres-smoke-the-climate-change-denial-lobby/

http://climatecrocks.com/2013/02/19/study-links-tobacco-tea-party-climate-denial-and-fox-news/

They're similar issues because in both cases a sophisticated spin campaign has been organized and launched to deny the science underpinning the theory of cause and effect.

You know what? I have no idea about any of that.
Just because some people have a little conspiracy going, it actually doesn't invalidate what I said earlier about the difference between climate change deniers and anthropogenic climate change skeptics.
 
Am I a climate change denier if I think climate change may be happening but I don't believe it's caused by human action.?
 
Mythopoeika said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Mythopoeika said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
There are still people who don't believe that smoking tobacco causes lung cancer. Are they skeptics, or deniers?

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison to make. These are completely different issues.
So why are the same methods and often the same organizations handling the anti-science spin on both?

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/where-theres-smoke-the-climate-change-denial-lobby/

http://climatecrocks.com/2013/02/19/study-links-tobacco-tea-party-climate-denial-and-fox-news/

They're similar issues because in both cases a sophisticated spin campaign has been organized and launched to deny the science underpinning the theory of cause and effect.

You know what? I have no idea about any of that.
Just because some people have a little conspiracy going, it actually doesn't invalidate what I said earlier about the difference between climate change deniers and anthropogenic climate change skeptics.
Well, we've been over the science and the spin for years now. If you don't believe that the process of pumping several hundred million years worth of fossil carbon back into the atmosphere in a couple of hundred years has an effect, one that was first understood a hundred and ninety years ago, that's fine. But, don't be surprised if what you see as 'skepticism' is seen as denial by others. Because it is a denial of the basic chemistry, physics and math, underpinning the theory of anthropogenic global warming.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
But, don't be surprised if what you see as 'skepticism' is seen as denial by others. Because it is a denial of the basic chemistry, physics and math, underpinning the theory of anthropogenic global warming.

Especially when you consider U.S. Republicans can't even acknowledge the process of Evolution.
 
The protagonists have to prove a theory. We don't have to disprove it. That is precisely what scepticism is about - looking for holes, inconsistencies and gaps. It used to be an essential part of the scientific process. Nor is it necessary to be an expert in the particular discipline to look for mistakes in method or process.

I for one do not question the world might warm or cool. Since it has throughout its existence, it is much harder to understand why it would stop.

Just because something is possible in physics does not mean it is actually happening.

I'm no sceptic, I have an open mind on many things. But I do understand logic and numbers, and the interpretations of some of the published 'deniers' make more sense to me, and their maths looks more kosher. Wherever they got their money from doesn't change their maths.

I'll leave it at that. As I have said before, few people are prepared to be shifted from their entrenched positions. Even so, the majority of the world's decision makers are no longer acting on the theory, in particular in up-and-coming countries like India and China, as well as places that have never signed up to the theory like Russia, so no doubt we will find out in due course what if anything is going to happen.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
There are still people who don't believe that smoking tobacco causes lung cancer. Are they skeptics, or deniers?

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison to make. These are completely different issues.

And a rather sweeping statement too, since although there is a clear link between routine exposure to carcinogens and the chance of cancer developing, no-one as yet knows the exact cause of cancer - indeed, we would be much nearer to a cure if we did know. And I have that direct from the surgeon who treated my wife when she was dying of cancer. I think he's paid by the NHS, not Esso.

You might ask why I believe in the stats for that link and not for AGW - well, the clincher for me is the decline in mouth cancer as people gave up smoking pipes and cigars - filter cigarettes keep most of the tar out of your mouth, but unfortunately your lungs are better filters than the one on the gasper.
 
Cochise said:
You might ask why I believe in the stats for that link and not for AGW - well, the clincher for me is the decline in mouth cancer as people gave up smoking pipes and cigars - filter cigarettes keep most of the tar out of your mouth, but unfortunately your lungs are better filters than the one on the gasper.
But the equivalent 'experiment', cutting atmospheric CO2 levels, has not been tried - even where token cuts have been made, overall CO2 levels are still rising. And that's unlikely to change, now the world is getting all excited about fracking.

So putting the CO2 = AGW theory to a similar test is unlikely to happen while vested interests don't want the link to be proved.

But for the majority of the world's scientists, the link is based on good science, and has already accumulated compelling evidence.
 
jimv1 said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
But, don't be surprised if what you see as 'skepticism' is seen as denial by others. Because it is a denial of the basic chemistry, physics and math, underpinning the theory of anthropogenic global warming.

Especially when you consider U.S. Republicans can't even acknowledge the process of Evolution.

Thanks for the blatant ignorant propaganda. Do you really believe all of them believe in fairy tales? Just like how all democrats and liberals spend all their free time doing recreational partial birth abortions. What a mad world! :lol:
 
Actually, the alien lords and masters are cooling the sun to correct for the rise in Earth's temperature.

This correction, of course, supports disbelief in climate change.

Until the methane released in the oceans sets itself on fire, anyway.
 
The universe came out of nowhere - presumably it can disappear into nowhere any time it wants :)
 
tonyblair11 said:
jimv1 said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
But, don't be surprised if what you see as 'skepticism' is seen as denial by others. Because it is a denial of the basic chemistry, physics and math, underpinning the theory of anthropogenic global warming.

Especially when you consider U.S. Republicans can't even acknowledge the process of Evolution.

Thanks for the blatant ignorant propaganda. Do you really believe all of them believe in fairy tales? Just like how all democrats and liberals spend all their free time doing recreational partial birth abortions. What a mad world! :lol:

You're welcome!

Why Republicans Don’t Believe In Evolution Anymore

The theory of evolution is right up there with the theory of gravity in terms of its universal acceptance among scientists. But, as we’ve learned from the climate change debate, politics has the power to trump science — and, according to a new Pew poll, it seems like political partisanship may be starting to take its toll on evolution. While a comfortable majority of Republicans accepted human evolution as fact in 2009, Pew finds a plurality now reject it — an astonishing 19 point reversal in four years.

It’s a finding that tells us a lot, both principally about the (ahem) evolution of the Republican Party in the past fours. In short, the kind of person who doesn’t believe in evolution is much more likely be a typical Republican today than four years ago — for reasons that have only a bit to do with the debate over evolution itself.

There are two keys to understanding what the Pew poll teaches us about Republicans. First, the drop in belief in evolution is among Republicans and, more or less, Republicans only. Acceptance of human evolution was basically the same among Democrats and independents in 2013 as it was in 2009. Second, the share of the total population that believes in evolution hasn’t changed at all. The drop in Republican belief doesn’t appear to be people changing their minds about evolution so much as people who already didn’t believe in evolution becoming Republicans.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/ ... ographics/

More Pew Report here...

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... s-changed/
 
Cochise said:
The universe came out of nowhere - presumably it can disappear into nowhere any time it wants :)

That's after all the oxygen molecules in a given room rush to one side and leave you suffocating.
 
jimv1 said:
tonyblair11 said:
jimv1 said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
But, don't be surprised if what you see as 'skepticism' is seen as denial by others. Because it is a denial of the basic chemistry, physics and math, underpinning the theory of anthropogenic global warming.

Especially when you consider U.S. Republicans can't even acknowledge the process of Evolution.

Thanks for the blatant ignorant propaganda. Do you really believe all of them believe in fairy tales? Just like how all democrats and liberals spend all their free time doing recreational partial birth abortions. What a mad world! :lol:

You're welcome!

Why Republicans Don’t Believe In Evolution Anymore

The theory of evolution is right up there with the theory of gravity in terms of its universal acceptance among scientists. But, as we’ve learned from the climate change debate, politics has the power to trump science — and, according to a new Pew poll, it seems like political partisanship may be starting to take its toll on evolution. While a comfortable majority of Republicans accepted human evolution as fact in 2009, Pew finds a plurality now reject it — an astonishing 19 point reversal in four years.

It’s a finding that tells us a lot, both principally about the (ahem) evolution of the Republican Party in the past fours. In short, the kind of person who doesn’t believe in evolution is much more likely be a typical Republican today than four years ago — for reasons that have only a bit to do with the debate over evolution itself.

There are two keys to understanding what the Pew poll teaches us about Republicans. First, the drop in belief in evolution is among Republicans and, more or less, Republicans only. Acceptance of human evolution was basically the same among Democrats and independents in 2013 as it was in 2009. Second, the share of the total population that believes in evolution hasn’t changed at all. The drop in Republican belief doesn’t appear to be people changing their minds about evolution so much as people who already didn’t believe in evolution becoming Republicans.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/ ... ographics/

More Pew Report here...

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... s-changed/

The study also found that 33 percent of dems no not believe in evolution. So that must mean that all dems deny evolution by following your logic. ;)
 
Emissions impossible: Did spies sink key climate deal?
Matt McGrath, Environment correspondent

The revelations of the NSA whistleblower, Edward Snowden, are an ongoing embarrassment for the US government.
From Angry Birds to the mobile phone of Angela Merkel to the banal conversations of millions of people, the scale of the National Secutiry Agency's spying activities knew few boundaries.
But can the world's inability to fix the problem of global warming also be laid at the spooks' door?

Wind your mind back to December 2009, when world leaders converged on Copenhagen to cook up a global climate deal that would solve the problem of rising temperatures.
But it appears the US already knew what everyone else was thinking.

According to documents released to a Danish newspaper by Snowden, the NSA was ready, willing and able to provide "unique, timely and valuable" insights into the negotiating positions of the countries that attended the blockbuster summit.

By monitoring "signals intelligence", the spies would keep US negotiators "as well informed as possible" about "sidebar discussions", informal huddles and corridor conversations during the two week conference.

In other words, the sneaky buggers (well, they do install bugs, don't they?) were giving the US a major advantage in the negotiations.

"It is interesting to have your fears confirmed," says Kit Vaughan from climate campaigners Care International.
He was among those who attended the meeting, known as Cop 15, in the Danish capital.
"All of us thought that this was happening. To know that it was happening is even more worrying."

The Danish Security and Intelligence Service were supposedly in charge of making sure there was no obvious eavesdropping going on.
Known by the acronym PET, many climate campaigners believe these great Danes were, in reality, the lap dogs of the Americans.

"Greenpeace carried out an action. Forty minutes later we were in the pub, celebrating with a few of them. A few minutes later, the police arrested the guys out of the pub," says Mr Vaughan.
"The only way to follow them was to follow the phones and the email traffic coming from that group. It was all monitored." :shock:

I put this claim to a Danish source who was closely connected to the negotiations.
"Copenhagen is pretty small: if you suddenly have 15 activists celebrating in a bar, it's not going to be a secret for a very long time," he said.
"You don't need electronic surveillance for this!" 8)

The Danes didn't lend a hand to the Americans in their secret squirrel activities, he says.
In fact, he says, the Danes were a bit naive in this regard.
"We got some Chinese viruses on our computers which we thought was rather odd, but we didn't do that much about it," says the source.
"We didn't use encrypted emails which we probably should have done, but that was five years ago and no one knew about the NSA."

Not only were the US at it, and it would appear the Chinese, but the non-governmental organisations weren't going to be left out in cold either, says Kit Vaughan.

"There are people in the NGO and civil society movement who are very closely aligned with parts of intelligence groups of other agencies. That's the business and the game of climate, there's too much at stake for them not to be."

One element that really soured the atmosphere in Copenhagen was the so-called Danish draft: not one of the excellent local beers, but the text of a deal, drawn up by the home government in an effort to move the talks forward.
Many campaigners believe the US got hold of the document via email intercepts. My Danish source denies this. He points to the fact that wire agencies had a copy of the text two weeks before the conference began.

"All the spying in the world wouldn't have secured an agreement in Copenhagen," he says.
"We all knew the Gordian knot was that China wouldn't accept an agreement that omitted the Kyoto Protocol and the US wouldn't accept one that included it."
"This was impossible to cut through and everyone knew this beforehand."

And so it was that "Hopenhagen" rapidly became "Brokenhagen".

But despite the spies and the failure of the meeting, there's a quantum of solace for those who believe that a global, legally binding treaty is the only way to tackle climate change.
A deal, of one type or another, at Paris in 2015 remains on track.
Somehow, some way, the "zombie talks process" staggers forward.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25981242
 
Greens calls for clear-out of 'climate change deniers'
By Ross Hawkins, Political correspondent, BBC News
[Video: Natalie Bennett says the government needed people "signed up to action".]

The Green Party of England and Wales has called for a purge of government advisors and ministers who do not share its views on climate change.
Any senior advisor refusing to accept "the scientific consensus on climate change" should be sacked, it said. :shock:
Party leader Natalie Bennett said the rule must apply to all senior advisors, including those with no responsibility for environmental issues.

David Cameron says he suspects recent storms are linked to climate change.
Speaking recently, the prime minister said that while a single weather pattern could not be attributed to climate change, many scientists were talking of a link between the two and the UK should be prepared for more extreme weather.

But some Tory MPs and peers, Lord Lawson being the most prominent, have cast doubt on scientific theories on climate change which argue human activity is predominately responsible for recent rises in global temperatures.

The Greens are now insisting the government get rid of any cabinet minister who takes a different view on climate change.
Ms Bennett said: "We need the whole government behind this. This is an emergency situation we're facing now. We need to take action. We need everyone signed up behind that."

Pressed on the issue, she agreed that even the chief veterinary officer should be removed if he didn't sign up to the view on climate change also taken by the Green Party.

A policy document released by the party said: "Get rid of any cabinet ministers or senior governmental advisors who refuse to accept the scientific consensus on climate change or who won't take the risks to the UK seriously."

Ms Bennett added: "It's an insult to flood victims that we have an Environment Secretary (Owen Paterson) who is a denier of the reality of climate change and we also can't have anyone in the cabinet who is denying the realities that we're facing with climate change."

She said her party took the consensus view shared by many other organisation including the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
In September, the UN-backed body said it was 95% certain that humans were the "dominant cause" of global warming since the 1950s.

The party also wants to see staff cuts at the Environment Agency reversed, a bigger budget for the Agency and tougher rules to prevent development on flood plains.
It says money spent supporting fossil fuels should be redirected to help victims of flooding.

---------------------------

Owen Paterson on climate change

Speaking on the BBC's Any Questions programme in June, the environment secretary said: "The climate's been going up and down" for centuries and pointed out that the earth's surface temperature "has not changed in the last 17 years".

He added: "The real question, that everyone is trying to address is: Is this influenced by man-made activity in recent years?
"There is almost certainly bound to be some influence by man-made activity but we have just got to be rational and make sure the measures we take to counter it do not actually cause more damage."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26187711

While I tend to agree with the greens on this issue, it goes against parliamentary democracy to banish people who have different views on certain issues - that would indeed be PC gone mad. In fact, there are so many pressure groups for this and that, that one wonders if any member of the Lords or commons would survive if each party could banish their opponents in the way the Greens are attempting!
 
And even the IPCC gives a 5% chance that they are talking horsefeathers.
 
The deniers strike again.

Nigel Lawson's climate-change denial charity 'intimidated' environmental expert

Academic claims that the former chancellor's foundation complained to his employer

A think-tank that has become the UK's most prominent source of climate-change denial is embroiled in a row about its charitable status. There are also claims that one of its trustees tried to exact "retribution" on the person who complained about it to the charities watchdog.

The Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF), set up by the former chancellor Lord Lawson, a Conservative, was accused of publishing "inaccurate and misleading" information about climate science in a formal complaint to the Charity Commission in June last year.

In his submission to the commissioners, Bob Ward, policy director at the Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment, said the "continual activity has damaged the public interest" and was a breach of the rules governing charities.

After receiving advice from the commission, GWPF announced on Friday that it would create a non-charitable company that would be able "to conduct campaigns and activities which do not fall squarely within the educational remit of the charity".

Mr Ward, well known for his attempts to hold climate-change deniers to account, said he had submitted the complaint in a private capacity. But he revealed that a trustee of GWPF had written to his employer, the London School of Economics, earlier this year accusing him of making "unacceptable", "ill-informed" and "ranting" comments in the media about global warming and energy policies despite not being an academic.

In one letter, the trustee said the LSE should be aware that a "distinguished Oxford scientist" had told him: "It's appalling that the LSE employs people like Bob Ward." The trustee, whose identity Mr Ward requested be kept anonymous, did not mention his own link to the GWPF.

Mr Ward, who is a fellow of The Geological Society, said he had informed the Charity Commission about the letters, only to be told they could not investigate.

He has now written to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, which oversees the Charity Commission, to complain about the length of time it has taken the commissioners to act and its failure to look into the letters. He noted in his complaint that he believes the letters were "intended, at least partly, as a form of retribution against me for having raised concerns about the foundation with the Charity Commission".

"This is the way in which the foundation goes about its business, trying to intimidate its opponents into silence," he told The Independent on Sunday. "For someone in a less secure position than [me], this could be extremely damaging."

Benny Peiser, a social anthropologist who is director of the GWPF, said the foundation was not involved in the actions of the trustee.

"I don't know anything about this letter …. This has nothing to do with the GWPF, which is unaware of any of this," he said.

Dr Peiser confirmed the changes to the foundation were made following advice from the Charity Commission, but dismissed the role of Mr Ward, claiming that he "didn't feature at all" in their discussions with the watchdog.

And he said that setting up the new non-charitable body "just makes us more effective and allows us to be a little bit more outspoken because, under charitable law, you cannot really campaign".

The GWPF does not dispute the physics of climate change – such as the warming effect of greenhouse gases – but argues that the Earth's atmosphere is less sensitive than thought by the vast majority of scientists and that humans should simply "adapt" to the new conditions, rather than trying to prevent them from occurring by switching from fossil fuels to renewable energy.

The Charity Commission said that Mr Ward's complaint was still an active case.

"The commission has been engaging with the trustees of the charity [GWPF] since we received a complaint relating to some of its statements and published material," it said.

"We advised the trustees that we did not consider that all the contents of the website advanced education, as required of a charity. In addition, we had raised a question with the trustees about whether all the content of the website was in line with our guidance on campaigning and political activity by charities."

It said it had suggested that parts of the website should be "separated from the charity and hosted by an independent organisation" and the GWPF had submitted its proposals to do this.

The Charity Commission added that it hoped the plans would be finalised by the end of July.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 50069.html
 
No word then on what was allegedly falsified? If this is the case then shouldn't all churches lose their charity status?
 
tonyblair11 said:
If this is the case then shouldn't all churches lose their charity status?

We can't have that - nobody would want to invent new religions...

:)
 
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