Marilyn Monroe: Murder Or Suicide?
- Thread starter carole
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escargot
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I saw a TV prog when I was a kid (no later than March 1968) which mentioned MM's death as something mysterious and possibly murder. It was the first time I'd heard of her and I was fascinated. It featured the ambulance driving away from her house and various film clips, and interviews with people who were unconvinced that she'd killed herself.
So I've been interested ever since. One thing I heard which made me think it was murder was that MM claimed to sleep naked, and was found dead that way, whereas friends reckoned she always wore a bra to bed when she slept alone.
So I've been interested ever since. One thing I heard which made me think it was murder was that MM claimed to sleep naked, and was found dead that way, whereas friends reckoned she always wore a bra to bed when she slept alone.
Iread a newspaper article (probably the dreaded Daily Mail
) recently that claimed she was murdered by the Mafia. Can't remember the reasons why, because I read it at work and other things were impinging on my consciousness, but it argued that she was given a dose of something lethal anally, so that it wouldn't show up in the stomach contents during the autopsy. But surely this would have been noticed in the autopsy?
Damn, I'm going to have to do a google on this. . .
Carole
) recently that claimed she was murdered by the Mafia. Can't remember the reasons why, because I read it at work and other things were impinging on my consciousness, but it argued that she was given a dose of something lethal anally, so that it wouldn't show up in the stomach contents during the autopsy. But surely this would have been noticed in the autopsy?Damn, I'm going to have to do a google on this. . .
Carole
A
Anonymous
Guest
Wish I had more details and a reference but the thing that convinced me she was murdered was the fact that she had a large amount of a certain drug in her body (barbiturates??). She could possibly have injected herself (hence the puncture marks) but the amount found in her could not have been self-administered due to the fact that she would have been unconcious well before she had emptied the syringe. I think she was murdered on the order of the Kennedys, as she was such a loose cannon.
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Anonymous
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If memory serves, she was found naked, with her hari in need of bleaching, with an excessive amount of barbiturates in her system, but not ingested. The theory leans towards them being administered by enema, as apparently there was some evidence of - shall we say - tampering.
All of which didn't stop me saying I thought she committed suicide.
To all intents and purposes, Marilyn Monroe was a spoilt brat, prone to excessive temper tantrums, a heavy drug and alchohol abuser, and rather a large pain in the arse to anyone who had the misfortune to meet her. IIRC, she had no real friends, due to her attitude. Regardless of some people's insistence on her virtues as a 'real' actress, I doubt it somehow. She was blamed (by who I can't remember) for the death of Clarke Gable, as her behaviour on the set of The Misfits caused Gable a lot of waiting around in inclement weather to see if she would bother to turn up at all, which led to his death from pneumonia (I believe). Laurence Olivier couldn't stand to be near her in The Prince and The Showgirl, as apparently he thought her smelly and dirty.
She was a drama queen with a whole heap of neuroses. I believe she committed suicide.
All of which didn't stop me saying I thought she committed suicide.
To all intents and purposes, Marilyn Monroe was a spoilt brat, prone to excessive temper tantrums, a heavy drug and alchohol abuser, and rather a large pain in the arse to anyone who had the misfortune to meet her. IIRC, she had no real friends, due to her attitude. Regardless of some people's insistence on her virtues as a 'real' actress, I doubt it somehow. She was blamed (by who I can't remember) for the death of Clarke Gable, as her behaviour on the set of The Misfits caused Gable a lot of waiting around in inclement weather to see if she would bother to turn up at all, which led to his death from pneumonia (I believe). Laurence Olivier couldn't stand to be near her in The Prince and The Showgirl, as apparently he thought her smelly and dirty.
She was a drama queen with a whole heap of neuroses. I believe she committed suicide.
According to THE 70 GREATEST CONSPIRACIES OF ALL TIME:
The main question that comes out of the case history of Marilyn Monroe's death is not whether she was murdered or even by whom, but how the men who ran this country in 1962 ever found time to do their jobs. They were all too busy with Marilyn Monroe.
The Kennedy brothers, Jack and Bobby, president and attorney general respectively, were either in bed with her for hours at a time or talking dirty to her on the phone for even longer. San "Momo" Giancana - the Chicago/Vegas mob boss who, some say, really ran the country - was preoccupied with the sex icon to end all sex icons, and wiretapped her - as did Teamster leader and Kennedy-hater Jimmy Hoffa. Giancana saw her as a means to gain power over the Kennedys. He bedded her too. At one point Momo boasted to another gangster that he had one up on the Kennedys because he was the last to have sex with Marilyn before her death.
And, unsurprisingly, J. Edgar Hoover spent his time listening to recordings taken from bugs in every room in her house - or anyone else's house or hotel where she stayed.
The Marilyn tapes, according to Hollywood private eye Fred Otash, who recorded and retained many of them, are "probably the most interesting tapes ever made - with the exception of Watergate."
Come on. What's on the Watergate tapes but a bunch of old lawyers cussing, smoking cigarettes, and grumbling about politics? The Marilyn tapes are said to contain lengthy recordings of America's most glamorous movie star doing the nasty with America's most glamorous president. And other intriguing episodes. Private investigator Milo Speriglio, who had spent thirty years on the Monroe case, says that the tape recorders were rolling right through Marilyn's murder.
Among researchers, writers, and sleuths who claim either to have heard some of these tapes or know what's on them - or to have just done a lot of legwork - there is a dazzling spectrum of opinions on how the former Norma Jean Baker met her demise at age thirty-six, on August 4, 1962. And at whose hands. Most of the hypotheses involve the Kennedy brothers and Giancana, with Hoover in the wings, as always, watching.
Speriglio names none other than Jack Kennedy himself, in collusion with his morally bankrupt father Joe (by that time incapacitated by a stroke that diminished his physical and mental faculties but apparently left his capacity for evil unscathed), as ordering the hit. Marilyn had become too pesky. Her constant calls to the White House and the Justice Department had become a hot gossip item for Washington insiders. And there was the omnipresent threat of a press conference at which Marilyn would blow the lid off her relationship with the Kennedy brothers, an option Marilyn was apparently considering. Not only did she jeopardize the Kennedy dynasty, but national security. In some kind of weird attempt to impress his extramarital flame, Bobby blabbed secret info about the CIA-Mafia kill-Castro plots to Marilyn Monroe, of all people. Or so the story goes. The official version is that Marilyn committed suicide by barbiturate overdose.
But even Goddess author Anthony Summers, who believes that Marilyn did not intentionally kill herself and goes no further than to "leave open" the possibility of murder, seems in his book to have been persuaded that Bobby Kennedy was at Marilyn's bungalow the night of her death. The attorney general may have visited her on a humane "mission of mercy," that night, Summers, perhaps wishfully, speculates.
Marilyn was extremely distraught that day, attempting to call everyone she knew in a fit of despair over her broken relationships with the Kennedy brothers. Career minded as always, they rather cruelly led her on then cut her off. In most versions of the story, Bobby initiated his relationship with Marilyn mainly to protect the president. Jack saw Marilyn as a fling. She saw him as marrying material. She harbored delusions of First Ladydom and when Jack grew bored of her, she wouldn't let him go. In stepped Booby, who made the tragic error in falling in love with her.
Some biographers have written that Marilyn Monroe carried a Kennedy child in 1962, though whether it was supposed to be Jack's or Bobby's is not clear.
According to Summers's recreation of events, Bobby Kennedy would have arrived to find Monroe already in the throes of overdose but alive. He, or an aide, called an ambulance, which was to take Marilyn to the hospital, but she died en route. When the younger Kennedy brother saw that his paramour had passed, he switched immediately into coverup mode. No matter how she dies, it would not look good for the aspiring next president to show up at a hospital towing the corpse of America's favorite sex symbol.
The ambulance, according to Summers, turned around and returned to the bungalow. The body that wet dreams were made of was laid out on the bed, the room straightened, and a call placed to Marilyn's confident and psychiatrist Robert Greenson. It was Greenson who, officially, discovered the decease Marilyn Monroe. By this time Bobby was safely out of L.A. maybe. A police officer named Lynn Franklin tells of pulling over a car driven by Peter Lawford sometime after midnight - hours after Marilyn died. Bobby Kennedy was in the backseat.
Unlike some other writers on the topic, Summers admits that his scenario might be "wrong in certain details, but it is a fair construction from the information now available." He also says that, probably, "no serious crime was committed that night." But the death of Marilyn Monroe was, in Summers's view, Bobby Kennedy's Chappaquidick - a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong dead woman. But Bobby got away were his younger brother Ted got caught.
In the updated edition of his book, Summers interviews an unnamed source who claims to have heard tapes of Marilyn's final night. The tapes appear to have been edited. Bobby Kennedy, Peter Lawford, and Marilyn Monroe are on the tapes - the two ex-lovers screaming at each other while Lawford tries to calm them down. At one point, according to Summers's informant, there are sounds of a struggle. Bobby may have pushed Marilyn onto the bed.
The tapes leave the impression, according to Summers, that Marilyn was dead when Bobby left the house after his second visit of the evening and that later there was a phone call placed to Marilyn Monroe's home. on the tapes, someone picks up the phone, but says nothing. When Marilyn's body was found, she clutched a phone in her hand. The implication, according to Summers, is that it was placed there - the call was intended to establish a phone record that Marilyn was alive and answering the phone at a time when she was, in fact, far too dead to chat.
Conspiracy theorists and medical examiners alike have long been bothered by the absence of pill residue in Marilyn's stomach and the lack of any glass of water in her apartment with which she could have swallowed the massive overdoes required to kill her. And medical examiners never found any signs of injected drug either. Summers was the first to publicly postulate the one method of ingestion that would leave no trace, unless checked for. It wasn't.
Peter Lawford, the debauched actor and Kennedy in-law who arranged Jack's West Coast trysts, knew something about Marilyn's death, but took his secrets to his drug-and-booze induced grave. When one of his former wives asked him if he knew how Marilyn died, he made an odd remark.
"Marilyn took her last big enema."
The starlet "complained of chronic constipation," Summers wrote. "Enemas relieve that complaint. Their use was also a common fad, particularly among show business people in those days, as an aid to instant weight loss." Marilyn Monroe had been taking enemas for years.
The rectal ingestion theory is now a common one. Double Cross, written by the late Sam Giancana's godson also named Sam Giancana, and his brother, Chuck, says that Marilyn's killers listened to Giancana's wiretaps as they lurked near her home, waiting for the opportune moment to strike. They overheard Bobby Kennedy and another man in the house irate at Marilyn. Finally, Bobby ordered Marilyn sedated and left. The hit men sneaked in and, as Marilyn lay in a drugged stupor, administered a lethal "suppository."
One of the latest Marilyn books, Speriglio's Crypt 33 (titled for the compartment where Monroe's body was stored at the L.A. County morgue), describes how gangland superstar Johnny Roselli - a Giancana associate who is better known for his involvement in the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro and, by some accounts, JFK - showed up at Marilyn's house to distract her (they knew each other; Roselli traveled in show biz circles) while two hit men sneaked in the back. One knocked her out with a chloroform-soaked cloth, then the other administered the killer enema. It is unclear from the rather choppily written Crypt 33 whether Speriglio bases his scenario on evidence from the actually evidence from the actual Marilyn tapes, though he seems to imply that he does. Crypt 33 includes Speriglio's assertion that Joe and Jack Kennedy beseeched Giancana to rub Marilyn out and that the gangster, always looking for leverage with the Kennedys, happily obliged. The book revises Speriglio's earlier theory, spelled out in The Marilyn Conspiracy. Namely, that Giancana and Hoffa, under pressure from Bobby Kennedy and aware, through wiretaps, of his affair with Monroe, set him up for scandal. Slaying his sex-queen-on-the-side was part of the plot. But the Kennedy coverup worked. Neither Bobby nor Jack suffered destruction. Until later. And then by somewhat different methods.
The coverup continues. On that point all the Marilyn writers concur. Whether she was murdered, committed suicide, or died by accidentally misjudging her capacity to tolerate downers (Summers's preferred hypothesis), there is no question that the Kennedy brothers got involved with her in some way that grew too dangerous. In 1985, possibly for this reason, ABC killed a story on its 20/20 news magazine that independently corroborated the information in Summers's book Goddess. The half-hour segment included information about several of Jack Kennedy's other affairs, including liaisons with mob moll Judith Campbell Exner and suspected Nazi spy Inga Arvad.
ABC's higher-ups were skittish and ordered the segment trimmed. Finally it was down to thirteen minutes when ABC News president Roone Arledge, a close friend of Robert Kennedy's wife Ethel, killed it altogether. He denied that his friendship had any bearing on his decision, condemning his own reporters' story as "sleazy." According to Hugh Downs, one of the network's more staid on-air personalities, the "sleazy piece" was "more carefully documented than anything any network did during Watergate."
One biography recounts that more than a decade after Marilyn Monroe's death, a TV actress named Veronica Hamel, later well-known on the show Hill Street Blues, purchased the house where Marilyn lived and died. During redecorating, she discovered a thicket of aged wires sticking out of the roof. The actress hired a private contractor to destroy the cables that had transmitted the sounds of Marilyn Monroe's anguished life and eerie death to a place in history where they have never been found.
The main question that comes out of the case history of Marilyn Monroe's death is not whether she was murdered or even by whom, but how the men who ran this country in 1962 ever found time to do their jobs. They were all too busy with Marilyn Monroe.
The Kennedy brothers, Jack and Bobby, president and attorney general respectively, were either in bed with her for hours at a time or talking dirty to her on the phone for even longer. San "Momo" Giancana - the Chicago/Vegas mob boss who, some say, really ran the country - was preoccupied with the sex icon to end all sex icons, and wiretapped her - as did Teamster leader and Kennedy-hater Jimmy Hoffa. Giancana saw her as a means to gain power over the Kennedys. He bedded her too. At one point Momo boasted to another gangster that he had one up on the Kennedys because he was the last to have sex with Marilyn before her death.
And, unsurprisingly, J. Edgar Hoover spent his time listening to recordings taken from bugs in every room in her house - or anyone else's house or hotel where she stayed.
The Marilyn tapes, according to Hollywood private eye Fred Otash, who recorded and retained many of them, are "probably the most interesting tapes ever made - with the exception of Watergate."
Come on. What's on the Watergate tapes but a bunch of old lawyers cussing, smoking cigarettes, and grumbling about politics? The Marilyn tapes are said to contain lengthy recordings of America's most glamorous movie star doing the nasty with America's most glamorous president. And other intriguing episodes. Private investigator Milo Speriglio, who had spent thirty years on the Monroe case, says that the tape recorders were rolling right through Marilyn's murder.
Among researchers, writers, and sleuths who claim either to have heard some of these tapes or know what's on them - or to have just done a lot of legwork - there is a dazzling spectrum of opinions on how the former Norma Jean Baker met her demise at age thirty-six, on August 4, 1962. And at whose hands. Most of the hypotheses involve the Kennedy brothers and Giancana, with Hoover in the wings, as always, watching.
Speriglio names none other than Jack Kennedy himself, in collusion with his morally bankrupt father Joe (by that time incapacitated by a stroke that diminished his physical and mental faculties but apparently left his capacity for evil unscathed), as ordering the hit. Marilyn had become too pesky. Her constant calls to the White House and the Justice Department had become a hot gossip item for Washington insiders. And there was the omnipresent threat of a press conference at which Marilyn would blow the lid off her relationship with the Kennedy brothers, an option Marilyn was apparently considering. Not only did she jeopardize the Kennedy dynasty, but national security. In some kind of weird attempt to impress his extramarital flame, Bobby blabbed secret info about the CIA-Mafia kill-Castro plots to Marilyn Monroe, of all people. Or so the story goes. The official version is that Marilyn committed suicide by barbiturate overdose.
But even Goddess author Anthony Summers, who believes that Marilyn did not intentionally kill herself and goes no further than to "leave open" the possibility of murder, seems in his book to have been persuaded that Bobby Kennedy was at Marilyn's bungalow the night of her death. The attorney general may have visited her on a humane "mission of mercy," that night, Summers, perhaps wishfully, speculates.
Marilyn was extremely distraught that day, attempting to call everyone she knew in a fit of despair over her broken relationships with the Kennedy brothers. Career minded as always, they rather cruelly led her on then cut her off. In most versions of the story, Bobby initiated his relationship with Marilyn mainly to protect the president. Jack saw Marilyn as a fling. She saw him as marrying material. She harbored delusions of First Ladydom and when Jack grew bored of her, she wouldn't let him go. In stepped Booby, who made the tragic error in falling in love with her.
Some biographers have written that Marilyn Monroe carried a Kennedy child in 1962, though whether it was supposed to be Jack's or Bobby's is not clear.
According to Summers's recreation of events, Bobby Kennedy would have arrived to find Monroe already in the throes of overdose but alive. He, or an aide, called an ambulance, which was to take Marilyn to the hospital, but she died en route. When the younger Kennedy brother saw that his paramour had passed, he switched immediately into coverup mode. No matter how she dies, it would not look good for the aspiring next president to show up at a hospital towing the corpse of America's favorite sex symbol.
The ambulance, according to Summers, turned around and returned to the bungalow. The body that wet dreams were made of was laid out on the bed, the room straightened, and a call placed to Marilyn's confident and psychiatrist Robert Greenson. It was Greenson who, officially, discovered the decease Marilyn Monroe. By this time Bobby was safely out of L.A. maybe. A police officer named Lynn Franklin tells of pulling over a car driven by Peter Lawford sometime after midnight - hours after Marilyn died. Bobby Kennedy was in the backseat.
Unlike some other writers on the topic, Summers admits that his scenario might be "wrong in certain details, but it is a fair construction from the information now available." He also says that, probably, "no serious crime was committed that night." But the death of Marilyn Monroe was, in Summers's view, Bobby Kennedy's Chappaquidick - a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong dead woman. But Bobby got away were his younger brother Ted got caught.
In the updated edition of his book, Summers interviews an unnamed source who claims to have heard tapes of Marilyn's final night. The tapes appear to have been edited. Bobby Kennedy, Peter Lawford, and Marilyn Monroe are on the tapes - the two ex-lovers screaming at each other while Lawford tries to calm them down. At one point, according to Summers's informant, there are sounds of a struggle. Bobby may have pushed Marilyn onto the bed.
The tapes leave the impression, according to Summers, that Marilyn was dead when Bobby left the house after his second visit of the evening and that later there was a phone call placed to Marilyn Monroe's home. on the tapes, someone picks up the phone, but says nothing. When Marilyn's body was found, she clutched a phone in her hand. The implication, according to Summers, is that it was placed there - the call was intended to establish a phone record that Marilyn was alive and answering the phone at a time when she was, in fact, far too dead to chat.
Conspiracy theorists and medical examiners alike have long been bothered by the absence of pill residue in Marilyn's stomach and the lack of any glass of water in her apartment with which she could have swallowed the massive overdoes required to kill her. And medical examiners never found any signs of injected drug either. Summers was the first to publicly postulate the one method of ingestion that would leave no trace, unless checked for. It wasn't.
Peter Lawford, the debauched actor and Kennedy in-law who arranged Jack's West Coast trysts, knew something about Marilyn's death, but took his secrets to his drug-and-booze induced grave. When one of his former wives asked him if he knew how Marilyn died, he made an odd remark.
"Marilyn took her last big enema."
The starlet "complained of chronic constipation," Summers wrote. "Enemas relieve that complaint. Their use was also a common fad, particularly among show business people in those days, as an aid to instant weight loss." Marilyn Monroe had been taking enemas for years.
The rectal ingestion theory is now a common one. Double Cross, written by the late Sam Giancana's godson also named Sam Giancana, and his brother, Chuck, says that Marilyn's killers listened to Giancana's wiretaps as they lurked near her home, waiting for the opportune moment to strike. They overheard Bobby Kennedy and another man in the house irate at Marilyn. Finally, Bobby ordered Marilyn sedated and left. The hit men sneaked in and, as Marilyn lay in a drugged stupor, administered a lethal "suppository."
One of the latest Marilyn books, Speriglio's Crypt 33 (titled for the compartment where Monroe's body was stored at the L.A. County morgue), describes how gangland superstar Johnny Roselli - a Giancana associate who is better known for his involvement in the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro and, by some accounts, JFK - showed up at Marilyn's house to distract her (they knew each other; Roselli traveled in show biz circles) while two hit men sneaked in the back. One knocked her out with a chloroform-soaked cloth, then the other administered the killer enema. It is unclear from the rather choppily written Crypt 33 whether Speriglio bases his scenario on evidence from the actually evidence from the actual Marilyn tapes, though he seems to imply that he does. Crypt 33 includes Speriglio's assertion that Joe and Jack Kennedy beseeched Giancana to rub Marilyn out and that the gangster, always looking for leverage with the Kennedys, happily obliged. The book revises Speriglio's earlier theory, spelled out in The Marilyn Conspiracy. Namely, that Giancana and Hoffa, under pressure from Bobby Kennedy and aware, through wiretaps, of his affair with Monroe, set him up for scandal. Slaying his sex-queen-on-the-side was part of the plot. But the Kennedy coverup worked. Neither Bobby nor Jack suffered destruction. Until later. And then by somewhat different methods.
The coverup continues. On that point all the Marilyn writers concur. Whether she was murdered, committed suicide, or died by accidentally misjudging her capacity to tolerate downers (Summers's preferred hypothesis), there is no question that the Kennedy brothers got involved with her in some way that grew too dangerous. In 1985, possibly for this reason, ABC killed a story on its 20/20 news magazine that independently corroborated the information in Summers's book Goddess. The half-hour segment included information about several of Jack Kennedy's other affairs, including liaisons with mob moll Judith Campbell Exner and suspected Nazi spy Inga Arvad.
ABC's higher-ups were skittish and ordered the segment trimmed. Finally it was down to thirteen minutes when ABC News president Roone Arledge, a close friend of Robert Kennedy's wife Ethel, killed it altogether. He denied that his friendship had any bearing on his decision, condemning his own reporters' story as "sleazy." According to Hugh Downs, one of the network's more staid on-air personalities, the "sleazy piece" was "more carefully documented than anything any network did during Watergate."
One biography recounts that more than a decade after Marilyn Monroe's death, a TV actress named Veronica Hamel, later well-known on the show Hill Street Blues, purchased the house where Marilyn lived and died. During redecorating, she discovered a thicket of aged wires sticking out of the roof. The actress hired a private contractor to destroy the cables that had transmitted the sounds of Marilyn Monroe's anguished life and eerie death to a place in history where they have never been found.
Well, there's this dubious website:
http://www.carpenoctem.tv/
The authors claim that all was written by themselves, but all the conspiracy theories are from THE 70 GREATEST CONSPIRACIES OF ALL TIME, and no credit is given to the actual authors.
Also, all of the serial killer listings are stolen from Michael Newton's book HUNTING HUMANS, again with the original author not credited.
And then they have the balls to put an actual copyright on their site. Classy.
I assume the Mafia and Military Leaders sections are also stolen from other books, but the above two are the only ones i recognize.
http://www.carpenoctem.tv/
The authors claim that all was written by themselves, but all the conspiracy theories are from THE 70 GREATEST CONSPIRACIES OF ALL TIME, and no credit is given to the actual authors.
Also, all of the serial killer listings are stolen from Michael Newton's book HUNTING HUMANS, again with the original author not credited.
And then they have the balls to put an actual copyright on their site. Classy.
I assume the Mafia and Military Leaders sections are also stolen from other books, but the above two are the only ones i recognize.
F
FraterLibre
Guest
Do A Favor
Someone ought to do Jonathan Vankin and his co-author, whose name I forget, a favor and let them know about this plagiaristic website.
Simply write to them via the book's publisher and it'll be forwarded.
Someone ought to do Jonathan Vankin and his co-author, whose name I forget, a favor and let them know about this plagiaristic website.
Simply write to them via the book's publisher and it'll be forwarded.
A
Anonymous
Guest
McAvennie
Justified & Ancient
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Did anyone see the programme on C5 a week or two ago about Monroe. I taped it but haven't watched it yet. Worth watching?
I have Donald Somebody's book about the case which I keep meaning to read. My bud interviewed him for his dissertation at Uni on the matter and said the book is a great read.
I have Donald Somebody's book about the case which I keep meaning to read. My bud interviewed him for his dissertation at Uni on the matter and said the book is a great read.
F
FraterLibre
Guest
Bruising
I'd be interested in seeing Naguchi's actual notes of the autopsy. I recall from his book that he thought he found insufficient barbituates in her stomach and thus considered the possibility of a suppository but I'm more curious about the inevitable bruising that should have occurred were she held down and forced to ingest or otherwise absorb the drugs.
I'd be interested in seeing Naguchi's actual notes of the autopsy. I recall from his book that he thought he found insufficient barbituates in her stomach and thus considered the possibility of a suppository but I'm more curious about the inevitable bruising that should have occurred were she held down and forced to ingest or otherwise absorb the drugs.
Anome
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Given Marilyn's penchant for alcohol and barbituates (Or am I misremembering again? Please feel free to correct.), surely they could have found her already somewhat intoxicated, and then administered the "lethal injection" so to speak.
Or if she wasn't already out of it, they could have spiked her drink, and then done it. There may still be some bruising, but not necessarily consistent with a struggle.
Or if she wasn't already out of it, they could have spiked her drink, and then done it. There may still be some bruising, but not necessarily consistent with a struggle.
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Even with her tolerance to barbituates, the huge dose she was supposed to have taken would have made her vomit.
There were no traces of vomit at the scene or was her stomach lining or throat stained with the dye from the barbituate coating which would have probably been red, yellow or green depending on what she was taking.
She was also found with her arm stretched out hanging off of the bed. Surely, if she had died whilst on the phone her muscles would have slackened and she would have either dropped the receiver or her arm go floppy. The position, when found was as if she'd been posed.
Years ago I read somewhere that when she was laid out in the morgue the mortician and his assistant raped her corpse so they could say they'd slept with Marilyn Monroe. Not sure how true it is but it was mentioned in a biography of her who's title now escapes me.
There were no traces of vomit at the scene or was her stomach lining or throat stained with the dye from the barbituate coating which would have probably been red, yellow or green depending on what she was taking.
She was also found with her arm stretched out hanging off of the bed. Surely, if she had died whilst on the phone her muscles would have slackened and she would have either dropped the receiver or her arm go floppy. The position, when found was as if she'd been posed.
Years ago I read somewhere that when she was laid out in the morgue the mortician and his assistant raped her corpse so they could say they'd slept with Marilyn Monroe. Not sure how true it is but it was mentioned in a biography of her who's title now escapes me.
A question for the more, erm, life-experienced members of the board: was MM as famous when still alive, or was she just considered another two-bit actress who only became an icon after her death?
It seems to me that she was a very unhappy woman who was ruthlessly exploited by rich and famous men (I'll never understand the media's love affair with the Kennedys).
Jane.
It seems to me that she was a very unhappy woman who was ruthlessly exploited by rich and famous men (I'll never understand the media's love affair with the Kennedys).
Jane.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,805
MM was huge before she died. I mean HUGE.
I mean she sang "Happy Birthday To You" to JFK before he had his wicked way with her...
She was probably the most famous actress of her generation. IMHO.
I mean she sang "Happy Birthday To You" to JFK before he had his wicked way with her...
She was probably the most famous actress of her generation. IMHO.
- Joined
- May 21, 2002
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- 691
I think her dying in such a romantic and tragic way has made her immortal. She was an OK actress but used by her studio to sell sex. They had no interest in her acting ability. What was going to sell? MM's legs on a subway grille or MM doing Checkov?
Her dying created rose-tinted specs of the highest degree. Ironically it never did her fame any harm!
Look at Bridget Bardot. She tried to kill herself god knows how many times and had she succeeded would have probably been viewed in the same way as MM. Now she's just seen as a batty old woman who smells of cat wee.
James Dean, in the harsh light of day was, lefts face it, crap! In Giant he had to have his lines over dubbed because he mumbled so much.
Death definately brings immortality.
I agree Jane, there's something about the Kennedys and their whole persona which makes my skin crawl.
Her dying created rose-tinted specs of the highest degree. Ironically it never did her fame any harm!
Look at Bridget Bardot. She tried to kill herself god knows how many times and had she succeeded would have probably been viewed in the same way as MM. Now she's just seen as a batty old woman who smells of cat wee.
James Dean, in the harsh light of day was, lefts face it, crap! In Giant he had to have his lines over dubbed because he mumbled so much.
Death definately brings immortality.
I agree Jane, there's something about the Kennedys and their whole persona which makes my skin crawl.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Tyger Lily said:
Kind of like her (approximate) contemporary, Jayne Mansfield - spoke four languages, a classically trained musician*... and now seemingly remembered mainly as the original ditzy blonde who was involved with the Church of Satan and died under mysterious circumstances.
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*at least according to the info I read...
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FraterLibre
Guest
Live One
It is standard, although hidden, practice among undertakers to let their interested colleagues know when a "live one" -- a good-looking corpse -- comes into their possession, so they can gather for what amounts to a necrophile's orgy.
Lesson? Die ugly.
In Ancient Rome it was standard practice to let the body of a good-looking person, particularly women, ferment for three or four days before allowing the undertakers to cart them off, to discourage such activity.
Given this, I'd guess it's likely that Norma Jean suffered even this posthumous indignity.
As for the barbituates, yes, Noguchi mentioned that he failed to find the stain he should have, had she, a habitual user, ingested enough pills to have killed her so quickly. The suppository method is also one she employed, though, according to her servant I believe.
You're quite right, though, she may very well have been so intoxicated that she could be overcome without much struggle. Given the passage of time, the lack of extent evidence, and the considerable obfuscation and deliberate confusion that's been sowed over the years since her death, I'd say it would require entirely new evidence to surface for this case ever to be resolved in any convincing way.
It is standard, although hidden, practice among undertakers to let their interested colleagues know when a "live one" -- a good-looking corpse -- comes into their possession, so they can gather for what amounts to a necrophile's orgy.
Lesson? Die ugly.
In Ancient Rome it was standard practice to let the body of a good-looking person, particularly women, ferment for three or four days before allowing the undertakers to cart them off, to discourage such activity.
Given this, I'd guess it's likely that Norma Jean suffered even this posthumous indignity.
As for the barbituates, yes, Noguchi mentioned that he failed to find the stain he should have, had she, a habitual user, ingested enough pills to have killed her so quickly. The suppository method is also one she employed, though, according to her servant I believe.
You're quite right, though, she may very well have been so intoxicated that she could be overcome without much struggle. Given the passage of time, the lack of extent evidence, and the considerable obfuscation and deliberate confusion that's been sowed over the years since her death, I'd say it would require entirely new evidence to surface for this case ever to be resolved in any convincing way.
A
Anonymous
Guest
But, your missing the point, in the Fifties both Monroe and Bardot had the sort of iconic fame that went way beyond mere talent.Tyger Lily said:
Check out some of their films again. They both seem to glow with an almost supernatural attractiveness in their movies.
The camera loved them.
Same can be said for James Dean and several other actors, Gable, Chaplin, Garbo, Harlow, Bette Davis. Not all died at an early age, but they all came over on film in some quite special way.
Some could act, some not, didn't matter. They seemed destined to be projected at larger than life sized.
- Joined
- May 21, 2002
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- 691
I totally agree Marilyn was an absolute icon and completely oozed something not many stars have today. She was adored during her day but retrospect and her circumstances make her a bigger star than she would have been had she lived.
Take Bardot. How many airbrushed Athena style pictures on teenage girls bedroom walls as she hung on? Not as many as Marilyn due to the fact she didn't cop it in her prime.
Their studio bosses didn't care for talent. The fact that both of them could act was just an added bonus. Their talent, like you say, was their mesmerising beauty seduction of the audience.
Take Bardot. How many airbrushed Athena style pictures on teenage girls bedroom walls as she hung on? Not as many as Marilyn due to the fact she didn't cop it in her prime.
Their studio bosses didn't care for talent. The fact that both of them could act was just an added bonus. Their talent, like you say, was their mesmerising beauty seduction of the audience.
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FraterLibre
Guest
Me?
I've never found either MM or that whole type particularly interesting, or attractive, and have never really fathomed what people saw in her, but in Normal Mailer's warped personal biography of her -- and I do keep in mind Mr. Mailer's strange Harvard-educated idiocy -- he says it was her fuckability. "You can fuck me if you're lucky," was what she supposedly oozed, according to Mailer -- the message that she was open to the advances of even the panting, pimply onanists in the dark theaters.
He may be right, I don't know, having never been that desperate. lol
I've never found either MM or that whole type particularly interesting, or attractive, and have never really fathomed what people saw in her, but in Normal Mailer's warped personal biography of her -- and I do keep in mind Mr. Mailer's strange Harvard-educated idiocy -- he says it was her fuckability. "You can fuck me if you're lucky," was what she supposedly oozed, according to Mailer -- the message that she was open to the advances of even the panting, pimply onanists in the dark theaters.
He may be right, I don't know, having never been that desperate. lol
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FraterLibre
Guest
So Did
Yes, so did Bernie Taupin, apparently. He was the young man in the 22nd row, it seems.
Yes, so did Bernie Taupin, apparently. He was the young man in the 22nd row, it seems.
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FraterLibre
Guest
Still Appearing
Marilyn is apparently still peforming. To wit --
Subject: Ghost Photographer Shares Secrets
NCBuy: Weird And Offbeat News Stories
October 9, 2003 - Wireless Flash
Ghost Photographer Shares Secrets
RENO, Nev. (Wireless Flash) -- A woman who claims she's taken pictures
of more than 100 ghosts is sharing a secret to snapping spirits: Try
going to a celebrity cemetery.
Shannon Roberts says she's gotten some of her best shots at Los
Angeles-area graveyards which cater to the stars.
She thinks the ghosts of entertainers are more likely to mug for the
camera because they're "hammier" than ordinary Joes.
Some of the stars whose spirits she's snapped at graveyards include
Marilyn Monroe, Lucille Ball and Alfred Hitchcock.
Roberts also makes a habit of taking pictures of TV coverage whenever a
celebrity dies, and says she just got a great shot of an angel waving
"hello" over Johnny Cash's shoulder in an interview he did with Larry
King just before he passed away.
One other tip for wannabe ghost photographers: Don't expect to get any
shots worthy of "Playboy."
Roberts says spirits are very modest and in all her years of taking
pictures, she's only caught two in the nude: Rudolph Valentino and a
voluptuous woman, who were in an intimate embrace.
Marilyn is apparently still peforming. To wit --
Subject: Ghost Photographer Shares Secrets
NCBuy: Weird And Offbeat News Stories
October 9, 2003 - Wireless Flash
Ghost Photographer Shares Secrets
RENO, Nev. (Wireless Flash) -- A woman who claims she's taken pictures
of more than 100 ghosts is sharing a secret to snapping spirits: Try
going to a celebrity cemetery.
Shannon Roberts says she's gotten some of her best shots at Los
Angeles-area graveyards which cater to the stars.
She thinks the ghosts of entertainers are more likely to mug for the
camera because they're "hammier" than ordinary Joes.
Some of the stars whose spirits she's snapped at graveyards include
Marilyn Monroe, Lucille Ball and Alfred Hitchcock.
Roberts also makes a habit of taking pictures of TV coverage whenever a
celebrity dies, and says she just got a great shot of an angel waving
"hello" over Johnny Cash's shoulder in an interview he did with Larry
King just before he passed away.
One other tip for wannabe ghost photographers: Don't expect to get any
shots worthy of "Playboy."
Roberts says spirits are very modest and in all her years of taking
pictures, she's only caught two in the nude: Rudolph Valentino and a
voluptuous woman, who were in an intimate embrace.
A
Anonymous
Guest
AndroMan said:
Watching MM in 'Bus stop' is almost painful because she is so beautiful. Apparently she had, according to her make-up artist, a very lush, thick, almost damp skin on her face which gave her that luminious quality. Vivien Leigh has the same effect on me, she's just too beautiful, you have to avert your eyes.
MM also knew how to switch on and off sex appeal. Walking down the street one day with a male friend he commented on how people were not noticing her 'that's because i'm not being marilyn' she replied, and with a subtle shift in her hips and a slight change in body language she switched on the sex and brought the street to a stand-still.
I cannot think of anybody on the public eye today who has the sex appeal of MM or BB.
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FraterLibre
Guest
Not Even...?
"I cannot think of anybody on the public eye today who has the sex appeal of MM or BB."
You mean, not even Dick Cheney or Tony Blair?
"I cannot think of anybody on the public eye today who has the sex appeal of MM or BB."
You mean, not even Dick Cheney or Tony Blair?
A
Anonymous
Guest
I stand corrected
No, it's true. IMO, the stars today are two-dimensional compared to the likes of MM. And I say it again, MM was supposedly a dress size 16 - the shape of a real female, not the dress size 2 stick insects that are around today.
Like the hoo-ha about Renee Zellwieger putting on loads of weight for her latest Bridget Jones movie she had to go from a size six to - SHOCK! HORROR!! :eek!!!!: a size fourteen! Imagine how that must make many of the femal hoi-polloi feel . . .
Carole
Like the hoo-ha about Renee Zellwieger putting on loads of weight for her latest Bridget Jones movie she had to go from a size six to - SHOCK! HORROR!! :eek!!!!: a size fourteen! Imagine how that must make many of the femal hoi-polloi feel . . .
Carole