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Mayan Calendar & 21st December 2012

Might I draw everyone's attention to today's Breaking News section? There is a report of a Mayan tribal elder who like most other Mayans is getting thoroughly p***ed off with Westerners fearing the end of the world in 2012.

As he is so often moved to point out, the ancient Mayans didn't predict a cataclysm.

This particular end of a Long Count Baktun is also the end of the cycle of the precession of the equinoxes, which takes @ 26000 years to complete.
That's too long ago for recorded history, and archaeological and geographical evidence can be a bit vague.
One item of evidence for past catastrophes is a photo taken by a ground (or in this case ice) penetrating radar satellite showing something very like Plato's description of Atlantis. It was 1400 metres under the ice in Antarctica and shows 2 perfectly symmetrical concentric rings quartered by two straight lines in a cross formation. It was in an issue of FT and I have searched through about 10 years' worth of back numbers looking for it to no avail. I seem to remember it appearing in a book by Rand Flem Ath ( a name that's a Fortean topic in itself!)
The inference drawn from the photo is that the island on which this feature rests must once have been in more temperate climes, and for it to have ended up in Antarctica any time since the evolution of homo sapiens it must have got there pretty damn quick i.e. as the result of some plate-shifting cataclysm.
Of course it doesn't have to have been a 2012-related event that did this, any old randomly occurring rearrangement of the solar system would do. Since 2012 got to be big news far less is heard of Velikovsky's theory that Earth and Venus nearly collided as Venus was dragged in by the gravity from first Jupiter then the Sun.This used to be Cataclysm Explanation Number One.
Velikovsky also had a lot to say about electromagnetism as the primary cosmological influence, rather than gravity. Perhaps a re-examination of his work would be timely.
 
NASA on crusade to debunk 2012 apocalypse myths
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/NASA_ ... s_999.html
by Staff Writers

Washington (AFP) Nov 9, 2009
The world is not coming to an end on December 21, 2012, the US space agency insisted Monday in a rare campaign to dispel widespread rumors fueled by the Internet and a new Hollywood movie.
The latest big screen offering from Sony Picture, "2012," arrives in theaters on Friday, with a 200-million-dollar production about the end of the world supposedly based on myths backed by the Mayan calendar.

The doomsday scenario revolves around claims that the end of time will come as an obscure Planet X -- or Nibiru -- heads toward or collides with Earth.

The mysterious planet was supposedly discovered by the Sumerians, according to claims by pseudo-scientists, paranormal activity enthusiasts and Internet theorists.

Some websites accuse NASA of concealing the truth on the wayward planet's existence, but the US space agency denounced such stories as an "Internet hoax."

"There is no factual basis for these claims," NASA said in a question-and-answer posting on its website.

If such a collision were real "astronomers would have been tracking it for at least the past decade, and it would be visible by now to the naked eye," it added. "Obviously, it does not exist."

"Credible scientists worldwide know of no threat associated with 2012," it insisted.

After all, "our planet has been getting along just fine for more than four billion years," added NASA.

There is another planet, Eris, floating in space. But the dwarf planet similar to Pluto will remain safely lodged in the outer solar system and it can come no closer than four billion miles (6.4 billion kilometers) to Earth, according to NASA.

Scores of Internet postings and books delve into the supposed disaster, including "Apocalypse 2012" and "How to Survive 2012."

Initial theories set the disaster for May 2003, but when nothing happened the date was moved forward to the winter solstice in 2012 to coincide with the end of a cycle of the ancient Mayan calendar.

NASA insisted the Mayan calendar in fact does not end on December 21, 2012, as another period begins immediately afterward. And it said there are no planetary alignments on the horizon for the next few decades.

And even if the planets were to line up as some have forecast, the effect on our planet would be "negligible," NASA said.

Among the other theories NASA has set out to debunk are that geomagnetic storms, a pole reversal or unsteadiness in the Earth's crustal plates might befall the planet.

For example, some myths claim the Earth's rotation and magnetic polarity are related, with a magnetic reversal taking place about every 400,000 years.

"As far as we know, such a magnetic reversal doesn't cause any harm to life on Earth," and a reversal in Earth's rotation is "impossible," NASA reassured, adding that a magnetic reversal is "very unlikely" to occur in the next few millenia.

And while comets and asteroids have always hit the Earth, "big hits are very rare," NASA noted. The last major impact was believed to be 65 million years ago, spurring the end of dinosaurs.

"We have already determined that there are no threatening asteroids as large as the one that killed the dinosaurs," the space agency said.
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He's a US Astrophysicist, apparently a mentee of Sagan's. He's really very good and seems very accessible to the general public.

He has an excellent podcast available, in which he and a comedian discuss the mysteries of the universe. It's like a conversation between a genius and a slightly less intelligent, more annoying version of yourself!

You can grab that here and also on iTunes: http://startalkradio.net/

Sorry for the derail, but it kind of fits!
 
If only all debunkers were like Neil deGrasse Tyson!
The Nibiru hype only took off because somebody claimed to have found perturbations in the orbits of Uranus and Neptune and the likes of Zecharia Sitchin spun it. Since then the astronomers have conceded that they got heir sums completely wrong and have retracted.
As NASA say, it should be visible by now - and not just to the big observatories but to amateur astronomers. Nobody has seen it.

After the deconstruction of my conjunction - tide- Flood re-run theory :oops: I checked out the 2012 science stuff rather more thoroughly and came across the theories of Paul LaViolette. He argues that the galactic core occasionally erupts and emits huge gravity waves which travel well in excess of the speed of light.These are accompanied by gamma ray bursts.
the main limitation of the theory is that he hasn't prescribed a specific mechanism by which the 11.11 a.m. 21/12/2012 astronomical configuration could trigger such an eruption.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_autor_laviolette.htm

Support for this can be found in the finding that the Boxing Day earthquake was caused by such a gravity wave , caused by an erupting neutron star SGR1806-20.
http://www.etheric.com/GalacticCenter/GRB.html
Of course there is also the fundamental issue of exceeding the speed of light :- the links in the linked site lead to the experiments of Eugene Podkletnov and Guy Obolensky, who managed to generate gravity pulses with seeds thousands of times faster than light.
There was a gamma ray burst along with the gravity wave, the most intense ever recorded, which interfered with communications.

LaViolette has had many confirmations of his theories, although his correlations between astronomical events and cataclysms on Earth are rather vague.
Regardless of LaViolette's theories the erupting neutron star phenomenon is a cause for concern in itself. Ten soft gamma ray neutron stars have been found so far, each erupting on average once every 50 years. That earthquake was 9.3 on the Richter scale, one of the most powerful ever recorded. Perhaps the gravity pulse was so strong it would have caused quakes in regions with little or no tectonic activity should they have been on the receiving end.
The galactic eruption theory isn't 100% proven but there's more to it than there is to Nibiru and Annunaki.
 
The galactic eruption theory isn't 100% proven but there's more to it than there is to Nibiru and Annunaki.
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It is still nonsense, though.

There is no alignment in 2012 that is significant with respect to anything 'erupting' from the galaxy core. Note that the alignment actually happened in 1998.
Podkletnov is a pseudoscientist and no-one can replicate his work.

Gravity waves would travel at the speed of light (according to all currently available evidence), and none have been detected yet. In fact if a gravity wave of any kind were detected in 2012 (or at any other time) it would be a cause for celebration in cosmological circles. So far the most sensitive detectors have failed to discover any - a fact which is slightly puzzling and eliminates a lot of theoretical possibilities. Certainly no gravity wave has ever been detected that would cause tsunamis, earthquakes, or any other noticable effects on Earth.
 
Everyone with anything to say on the matter seems to think there is an alignment on 21/12/2012, and I don't know anything about an alignment in 1998.
Perhaps there are currently unrecognised properties to such alignments, perhaps the 2012 alignment is merely coincidental to some as yet unidentified event which is the true cause of core eruptions.
I should have constructed that sentence so it didn't give the impression Podkletnov and Obolensky were working together, they weren't and Obolensky's experiments are worth consideration in their own right, particularly for evidence of superliminal speeds. Sorry about the syntax.
I was referring to Podkletnov's 2001 gravity pulse generator experiment, and the most recent source I found reported that nobody had tried to replicate it.
Gravity waves are yet to be detected because the observatories are only a few years old and the only wave to hit the solar system during their operating lives was the SGR 1806-20 wave, and they were all switched off and the staff at home on Christmas holiday! Another erupting SGR neutron star's gravity wave hit the solar system in 1984 but there was nothing to record it. It may have been responsible for the slight dislocation of one of Saturn's rings - this has been traced to that time, and although the cause is yet to be proved several conventional causes have been eliminated.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
Everyone with anything to say on the matter seems to think there is an alignment on 21/12/2012, and I don't know anything about an alignment in 1998.
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The so-called alignment is between the midwinter solstice (of the Earth's orbit around the Sun), and the apparent location of the centre of the Galaxy as seen from Earth. The closest approach of the Midwinter Solstice to the apparent location of the centre of the Galaxy was in 1998, and this fact is well known among astronomers. So it certainly isn't true that 'everyone with anything to say on the matter' thinks there is an alignment in 2012.

In fact I've even mentioned the fact previously in this thread.
 
I was referring to Podkletnov's 2001 gravity pulse generator experiment, and the most recent source I found reported that nobody had tried to replicate it.
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Anyone who tries to replicate any of Podkletnov's experiments always fails- Podkletnov blames this on the fact that they are not replicating it right. This excuse doesn't wash- all over the world scientists are replicating each other's results on a regular basis.


Gravity waves are yet to be detected because the observatories are only a few years old and the only wave to hit the solar system during their operating lives was the SGR 1806-20 wave, and they were all switched off and the staff at home on Christmas holiday!
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So the only wave that has ever hit our planet occured when the machine was switched off- and it caused a tsunami? But all the other cosmological events in the universe are undetectable? I have to say that is untterly unbelievable.

Short duration GRBs similar to SGR 1806-20 occur in other galaxies on a regular basis, but no associated gravity waves are observed. If such a wave were strong enough to cause a tsunami from 45.000 light years, a similar GRB in another galaxy would cause a detectable wave- but nothing like this has been detected. Ever.

Another erupting SGR neutron star's gravity wave hit the solar system in 1984 but there was nothing to record it. It may have been responsible for the slight dislocation of one of Saturn's rings - this has been traced to that time, and although the cause is yet to be proved several conventional causes have been eliminated.
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No evidence for such a wave exists- this is pure speculation.
 
It's not that any attempts to replicate Podkletnov's gravity pulse experiment have failed, rather that noone has even tried. That's not to say his findings are obviously correct, just that they remain untested. It could well be that
There were 3 gravity observatories at the time, not one. There are now 5 and none of them seem to be operating 24/7. The latest is called QUIET and is sited in the Atacama desert, where it is looking for historical evidence of gravity waves just after the big bang.
This might all be unbelievable speculation to you but there seem to be rather a lot of scientists out there who think searching for gravity waves worthwhile, and they don't seem to be having much trouble attracting funding.
Yes , the 1984 wave is pure speculation, but bear in mind that the dislocation of the Saturn ring is still defying conventional explanations, so it is not entirely groundless. Remember you heard it here first. :p
 
I should add that when I introduced the gravity wave theory to the thread it was not my intention to present it as The Great and Unarguable Truth, rather that it is the only science-based suggestion for the 2012 cataclysm idea. Absence of evidence for gravity waves is indeed a major counter argument.
The distance of SGR1806-20 has recently been estimated at only 10 000 light years, and the gravity observatories are all re-adjusting the sensitivity of their detectors, so they may yet find something. If they don't then the possibility of the planet being wrecked in 2012 is greatly diminished, which is undoubtedly a good thing.
 
SGR1806-20 is associated with a HII region on the far side of the Galaxy, as far from the Galactic centre as we are but in the opposite direction. This region contains many unusual stars, and is very interesting in its own right. If I had to look for an advanced alien civilisation I'd look there, as it would be a magnet for any inquisitive species capapble of interstellar flight.

But most estimates place it at least 45,000 ly away.
 
I could only find the one source for the 10000 light year claim so point accepted.
Think you might find SGR1806-20's neighbourhood gets a bit lively at times! ;)
 
It is far enough away for any gravity wave to be attenuated to below the threshold at which it could cause problems. Gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces of the universe, and any source of such waves would need to be a lot closer than 45 kly to cause earthquakes.

No ripples from other galaxies have been detected, from anywhere in the universe, despite that fact there are billions of galaxies with range of the detectors; so we can safely say that gravity waves which cause cataclysms are vanishingly rare.
 
I don't take any of this seriously, every year I get a calender that runs out on December 31st, and I'm still here. In another few years someone will come up with calculations that the aztecs / incas / inuit / twareg / lakota / etc (delete as appropriate) predicted the end of the world in a couple of years. And guess what, another book and film contract will be awarded and the person who makes the money from the gullible will still be spending it after the predicted date.

the failure of prophesy of immenent destruction is evidence of a steady state.
 
I vote Bigfoot73 the marathon stayer of the year for his indefatigable stamina in the face of the bleeding obvious. Good form. Don't let the buggers grind you down, mate. You're an inspiration.
:lol:

On topic, I hope my Mum's not too upset when this asteroid shakes the gravity waves from the teutonic plates of the galactic eclipse on 21122012. It's her birthday. My Mum! :(
 
Thanks dude! :D
I still think there's something in the gravity wave theory: there was that eruption fom a star in a galaxy 13 million (or was it billion?) light years away which was detected recently, but without any sign of a gravity wave - possibly because it had dissipated over the immense distance.
The Mayan calendar may well simply start over again, but the Mayans did also describe repeated global cataclysms in the past, there is plenty of evidence for such events and little by way of explanation.
Theory and speculation is simply what you do in order to arrive at the truth of a situation where there is none apparent - it's not just febrile woo-woo ranting.
Seeing as the proposed consequence of a gravity eruption in 2012 involve the wrecking of the planet, I would be only to happy to be proved wrong about this!
 
we will kill ourselfs off long before the universe manages it i'm going to let the coakroaches worry about that :lol:
 
Perhaps it's time to worry about the 2012 Crazies who seemed to have dedicated their life to the 2012 EoT happening? When they wake up the day after on December 22, 2012 will some of them commit suicide?
Many of them will probably give away all of their belongings since they probably believe they have no need for it anymore.
 
Given that there wasn't any mass sucide on the 1999 to 2000 switchover, when a lot of people seemed to think the world would end, I don't think there will be much of problem when it fails to end in 2012. The true believers will just decide that god, the aliens or whatever have spared us this time and recalibrate the end of the world for a later date....

I've got a book of predictions that failed, somewhere, the world has been ending every few years for as long as records go back.

However, if they wish to give away their worldly goods, I will be quite happy to look after them...
 
Now I wouldn't want anybody to think I've got any axes to grind or anything BUT it would seem, as I'm sure you are all now aware, that someone has just found Noah's Ark near the summit of Ararat.
At time of writing they haven't released any external pictures, but the video is intriguing, and the location is where the smart money always claimed it was.
The explorers are not trying to get rich quick either, just calling for UNESCO protection.

Of course this raises the question of what put it there, and will that event happen again.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
...as I'm sure you are all now aware, that someone has just found Noah's Ark near the summit of Ararat....
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Not quite. A group with the expressed intention of finding Noah's Ark, that call themselves "Noah's Ark Ministries International", say they've found Noah's Ark. Important distinction, bearing in mind that even one of the team themselves stated "It's not 100 percent that it is Noah's Ark but we think it is 99.9 percent that this is it... (sic)".

Links and further discussion on the dedicated Noah's Ark thread, starting about here.
 
I can appreciate your point but, how many explorers/investigators set out to find something they do not believe in the existence of?

At that location, at that altitude, there aren't many unusual structures to choose between, and personally i would give them 0.1% worth of leeway.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
I can appreciate your point but, how many explorers/investigators set out to find something they do not believe in the existence of?
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Me! I don't believe in ghosts, yetis, Loch Ness Monsters, Alien encounters etc etc etc . But I keep looking, I go camping with a mate in "hotspots" and we investigate. I know you were really referring to professional, organised investigations but I'm sure history is full of sailors looking for passages to the East yet not actually believing they will find it.
 
Me! I don't believe in ghosts, yetis, Loch Ness Monsters, Alien encounters etc etc etc . But I keep looking, I go camping with a mate in "hotspots" and we investigate.
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Respect!

For all I know these explorers are a bunch of literalist creationist muppets I wouldn't otherwise have 5 minutes' patience with. The crucial difference about them is they are looking in the right place: not at that strange impression in the ground on the lower slopes miles away, or in Iran.
All the old witness accounts, from the Czar's 1917 expedition back to Alexander the Great, put it near the summit, and due to the Kurdish guerrilla activity in the area the Turkish government have been reluctant to let anyone up there until now.
 
what i would very much like to know is this: how much positive interest is 'out there' in the papers written by prof j c calleman and his thinking on the maya calendar. also the recent discovery at gobekli tepe in southern turkey?

rodge the dodge[/i]
 
rodgethedodge said:
what i would very much like to know is this: how much positive interest is 'out there' in the papers written by prof j c calleman and his thinking on the maya calendar. also the recent discovery at gobekli tepe in southern turkey?
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I don't know - why don't you tell us about it, rather than leaving it hanging so tantalisingly?
 
I don't know - why don't you tell us about it, rather than leaving it hanging so tantalisingly?
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Indeed!
I did a quick websearch and couldn't find out much about Calleman's theories, least of all from his own website. Seems you have to buy his books first. Ho hum.
If he is yet another proponent of the idea that in 2012 we will all ascend to some higher level of consciousness then I think this unlikely. I have always gone with the Doom-Laden Miserabilist Git theory that come 2012 there will be another global cataclysm and we are all toast. In which case there isn' t much point worrying about whatever they just found at Gobeckli Tepe.
 
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