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MIA Plane Found? (Folsom Lake; California; 1965 Collision)

marhawkman

marhawkman

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Messages
1,445
marhawkman said:
hmmm airplane lost for decades... now found by mistake?

https://www.insider.com/plane-crashed-1965-likely-found-bottom-of-california-lake-2021-6

It's kinda interesting that they didn't find it it in the initial search though. I mean, it's easy to say "we don't know where it crashed" when there are no witnesses, but... this plane went down because of a mid-air collision and thus had witnesses since the other plane DIDN'T crash.
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Not sure why the accompanying photo on that article is a C-130 at the bottom of the Red Sea in Jordan
 
marhawkman said:
hmmm airplane lost for decades... now found by mistake? ...
It's kinda interesting that they didn't find it it in the initial search though. I mean, it's easy to say "we don't know where it crashed" when there are no witnesses, but... this plane went down because of a mid-air collision and thus had witnesses since the other plane DIDN'T crash.
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The CNN version of the news story is illustrated with the sonar images, which represent the only imagery for the lost plane.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/12/us/california-airplane-discovered-trnd/index.html

It's buried in silt, and it's at a current depth of 160 feet in a lake that's at a historically low level.
 
EnolaGaia said:
The CNN version of the news story is illustrated with the sonar images, which represent the only imagery for the lost plane.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/12/us/california-airplane-discovered-trnd/index.html

It's buried in silt, and it's at a current depth of 160 feet in a lake that's at a historically low level.
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Ah I see. So they decorated the article with a pic of a random wrecked airplane. Because they don't have one of this airplane., Makes sense, but it's kinda boring. Hmm I still find it a bit odd it took so long to find it.
 
marhawkman said:
Ah I see. So they decorated the article with a pic of a random wrecked airplane. Because they don't have one of this airplane., Makes sense, but it's kinda boring. Hmm I still find it a bit odd it took so long to find it.
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Im sure they could have fould an image more representative of a light aircraft on a lake bed rather than a fecking huge C130 in the sea
 
marhawkman said:
It's kinda interesting that they didn't find it it in the initial search though. I mean, it's easy to say "we don't know where it crashed" when there are no witnesses, but... this plane went down because of a mid-air collision and thus had witnesses since the other plane DIDN'T crash.
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It's not that surprising, given that:

- The witness cited for specifying the point of impact was 2 - 2.5 miles away;
- The water depth at the presumed point of impact (at the time) was on the order of 200 feet;
- They didn't have the sort of scanning sonar we have today; and
- Although skin divers dove down, the presumed debris depth was beyond their limit and they couldn't see much below 5 feet owing to the murky water.
 
Here is the contemporary news article about the collision from the Sacramento Bee (2 January 1965). This was the major newspaper closest to the scene of the crash.

Note that this original article cites the lake depth at the crash location as "at least 200 feet."

FolsomLake1965-A.jpg


FolsomLake1965-B.jpeg
 
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Here's the national wire service version of the story, which incorrectly cites the lake depth at the probably crash location as 125 feet.
4 Persons Killed As Planes Collide

FOLSOM, Calif. (UPI) Two private planes collided broadside high above Folsom Lake Friday, apparently killing four persons. The body of one victim was recovered. Authorities searched lake banks for the pilot of one craft and two other passengers. They said there was little chance of survival. The second plane, carrying three persons, limped back to Sacramento Municipal Airport in spite of a ripped-off tail section. "I don't know where he (the other plane) came from, but I was hit from the side," Curt Metcalf, 45, told Federal Aviation Agency officials. "I never saw the other plane before or after it hit me. All I felt was a heavy jolt." Metcalf, who operates a flying service in Sacramento, was taking two unidentified passengers on a sightseeing tour when the collision occurred. Metcalf said he felt the crash at about the 3,000-foot level and went into a 1,500-foot dive before managing to pull out and fly back to Sacramento. The other plane "went right straight down like a rock" and crashed in about 125 feet of water, about two and one-half miles behind Folsom Dam, a witness said. Metcalf was piloting a single-engine Beechcraft. The other plane, also on a pleasure cruise, was identified as a single-engine Piper Comanche. The dead man was identified as James B. Marshall, 51, of Roseville.
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The Town Talk Alexandria, Louisiana
Saturday, January 2, 1965, Page 11
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/214222139/
 
Here's a detailed description of the accident from court documentation in 1970. According to this account the crashed plane lost a significant portion of its right (starboard) wing. If this account is accurate and the recently detected sonar "hit" is indeed the lost plane, the latest sonar images indicate it is lying upside down.
... The fatal mid-air collision between the two airplanes occurred on January 1, 1965, at approximately 12:30 p.m. over Folsom Lake at an altitude of 2,500 to 3,000 feet. The visibility was excellent, and both pilots were experienced, with many hours of flying in both single and multiple engine aircraft. At the time of the collision, the two planes, each on pleasure and sight-seeing flights, had been in the air only a few minutes. As a result of the collision, the Comanche lost two or three yards of its right wing and plunged into the lake and was never recovered. The right half of the horizontal part of the tail of the Debonair was parted by the impact, but the plane managed to return to the Sacramento Airport.

At the trial, defendant, the pilot of the Debonair, said he did not see the Comanche before the accident; that it was his practice to look all around and that he always scanned the horizon, left, right and forward, under visual flight rules conditions. There was testimony that the defendant was pointing out the scenery and other points of interest to his two passengers shortly before the collision. Edward Johnson, a correctional officer at nearby Folsom Prison, testified that he was on tower duty when the two airplanes passed over the prison at approximately the same altitude and the same rate of speed. The airplanes were flying in the same general direction, with the Comanche in the lead by about 400 feet and to the Debonair's left by about 300 feet, and they seemed to be going on a trip together. Johnson said that after passing Folsom Prison the Comanche commenced a gradual turn to the right and had completed a half circle when the planes collided. Robert Stafford, who was 14 years old at the time of the accident, testified that he was less than a mile from the dam when he heard airplane engines, looked up and saw the Comanche coming down. He said it was in a fast spin, slowed into a very slow spin, and fell into the lake. ...
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Court of Appeal, Fifth District, California.
Gordon J. GOTCHER et al., Plaintiffs, Respondents and Cross- Appellants, v. Curtis E. METCALF, etc., Defendant, Appellant and Cross-Respondent.
Civ. 1110.
Decided: March 27, 1970
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1827072.html
 
In 2014 Folsom Lake was similarly "down" because of drought conditions. A search was made for the missing aircraft, but it was unsuccessful. These newspaper accounts illustrate some of the problems encountered in trying to locate the plane.
Search underway at Folsom Lake for wreckage from 1965 plane crash
BY CATHY LOCKE - [email protected]
JANUARY 17, 2014

A couple who used sonar to find the body of a woman missing in the Delta earlier this month are now searching Folsom Lake for the wreckage of a plane that crashed in 1965.

The El Dorado County Sheriff’s Department announced that Gene and Sandy Ralston are assisting the department in a search on behalf of Shingle Springs resident Frank Wilcox, whose brother was aboard the plane when it crashed on Jan. 1, 1965. Four people were aboard the plane, but only one body was recovered at the time. ...

The plane carrying pilot Ford Marshall, 50, of Roseville; his brother, James Marshall, 51, of Southern California; Helen Gotcher of Roseville; and Glen Emick, a 15-year-old Roseville High School football player, plunged into the lake following a midair collision with another plane, according to stories in The Sacramento Bee.

The other plane, piloted by Curtis Metcalf of Sacramento, was damaged but remained airborne and landed safely at what is now Sacramento Executive Airport, which had been cleared for an emergency landing. Neither Metcalf nor his two passengers were injured. ...

An eyewitness, a federal Bureau of Reclamation employee at Folsom Dam, said Marshall’s plane “fell like a rock” after the collision at an altitude of 3,000 feet, according to The Bee account. The plane reportedly went into the water off Beals Point, about 2 miles from the dam.

Both planes were on pleasure flights over the lake. Marshall had taken off from the Phoenix Airport in Fair Oaks, where Gotcher’s sons were waiting for the plane to return. It wasn’t until late afternoon that it was determined that it was Marshall’s aircraft that had crashed.

Only James Marshall’s body was recovered. ...
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https://www.sacbee.com/community/folsom-el-dorado/article2589091.html
=================
Search for 50-year-old plane in Folsom Lake ends

Exhausted after three full days of searching, authorities pulled their boats out of Folsom Lake Saturday afternoon.

There are some areas search crews may want to revisit, but there is still no certainty as to where a small plane crashed in 1965. ...

With the water levels dramatically lower in the lake because of a drought, searchers were hoping to find the wreckage of a small plane with the remains of three people possibly still inside. ...

The search crews said since the fuselage was badly damaged and has been sitting underwater for nearly half a century, they aren't sure even what shapes to be looking for. ...
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https://www.kcra.com/article/search-for-50-year-old-plane-in-folsom-lake-ends/6410622
 
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marhawkman said:
hmmm airplane lost for decades... now found by mistake?

https://www.insider.com/plane-crashed-1965-likely-found-bottom-of-california-lake-2021-6

It's kinda interesting that they didn't find it it in the initial search though. I mean, it's easy to say "we don't know where it crashed" when there are no witnesses, but... this plane went down because of a mid-air collision and thus had witnesses since the other plane DIDN'T crash.
Click to expand...
I read an extract from a book by Bill Bryson (it may have actually been A Walk in the Woods) where he was describing how easy it was to get lost in the woodlands of New England. A light commercial airliner went down after flying over the heads of half a dozen witnesses and they organised a search party and set off to look for survivors. The plane was never found (at that time) but the party did find a different plane that that disappeared 10 years earlier.
 
Hmm so, they knew which lake(Folsom) it crashed into, but couldn't find the plane in the murky depths? Hmm that makes sense I guess. :D Then years later someone uses fancy new gadgets to find it.
 
Bad Bungle said:
I read an extract from a book by Bill Bryson (it may have actually been A Walk in the Woods) where he was describing how easy it was to get lost in the woodlands of New England. A light commercial airliner went down after flying over the heads of half a dozen witnesses and they organised a search party and set off to look for survivors. The plane was never found (at that time) but the party did find a different plane that that disappeared 10 years earlier.
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The late Michael Bentine had a son who died in a light plane crash in 1971.

You'd think the wreckage would be located right away in Hampshire woodland but it was nine weeks before the plane and the bodies of Stuart Bentine and his friend Andrew Slade were found.

Bentine described this awful time in his autobiography The Long Banana Skin. He was a firm believer in all aspects of spirituality and an afterlife.

Here he is talking of his beliefs in a YouTube video -


People who lose a child also lose some of their fear of death. That's an advantage one would rather be without.
 
marhawkman said:
Hmm so, they knew which lake(Folsom) it crashed into, but couldn't find the plane in the murky depths? Hmm that makes sense I guess. :D Then years later someone uses fancy new gadgets to find it.
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Basically, yes. However, there are other complicating factors. Note that the reporting witness who saw the plane crash into the lake was 2 - 2.5 miles away at the time. He reported the impact as being offshore from a particular point extending out into the lake. However, from his position he could not have reliably given a more specific location for the impact.

The crashed plane was described as "dropping like a rock" after the collision in a spinning dive. If the newly-reported sonar images are of the 1965 plane it's remarkably intact for having fallen straight down into water. Water is a surprisingly unyielding landing place.

Lakes have currents. The crashed plane, missing a big chunk of its right (starboard) wing, was an asymmetrical object. The wreckage could have drifted sideways quite a bit before settling to the lakebed at least 200 feet down. Even if the surface impact point had been pinpointed there would have been little chance the wreckage was directly below that surface location.
 
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