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Mines & Mining As Evidence of Prehistoric Technology & Civilisation

I will ask him, and get back to you. It may take a week or two before I visit him next.
Hagrid.
 
Hagrid said:
PS....will email him and ask for the word he found again..I forget..and post it on the site. Someone may have an explanation or translation for the word.

Hopefully it won't be 'nemels'
heh heh

As fas as hoaxes go, I imagine metal objects could be hammered quite far into soft rock to await discovery by the hoaxee...
 
Possibly not found for hundreds or even thousands of years, causing double perplexment as to what they are and how they got there...
 
Okay...I`ve had a word with the mining expert. He may consider submitting an article to the Fortean Times at some point. For now...

1)The Word found written underground.

A word was found written on the wall of a cavern in Mid-Wales. He now feels the cavern was `worked` in the Bronze Age, and research has also led him to believe that Scottish miners may have entered the cavern in recent centuries. However, the meaning of the word..and it`s reason for being there..is still very much a mystery...any ideas would be greatly appreciated by a number of people.
The word is `RIMINEH`.
It has been carved in the rock using some kind of drill or bit.

2)Michigan Mines.
Around the world, including Michigan, lumps of separated copper have been found that seem to have been extracted using ancient technology. This is actually a natural and common phenomenum. In the case of Michigan...(any innaccuracies here are mine, not his..we had much to discuss last night!)..
....in that area, sandstone was laid down, flecked with small bits of copper ore. Above that sandstone layer, peat was later laid down. The acidity of the peat layer and the wet conditions led to the the copper being `extracted` and rising up to the surface, forming a block. These can be very large. Similar deposits are still being formed in small clumps in Wales today-he says they sometimes appear like clumps of moss. In retrospect, I have seen this process myself on a micro scale where copper has been mined in the past.
It is these copper deposits that have lead to much speculation.

3)Mining Technology in the past.
He has not researched further since I last spoke to him, so not much to add, but we shall prepare something between us for a future message..I`ll look into this again myself, and ask him to check it through. But basically, the Bible hints at ore removal methods (you have to know the local geology to interpret the clues) that are more advanced than conventionally thought...watch this space.:)

4) Mysterious old workings.
As a general rule, he feels that the nearer the Equator one looks, the more likely it is to find old workings...partly due to to ancient ice cover, and partly due to following the growing technology of mining spreading North from the Equator. Nothing has been found yet that for certain `proves` a lost/unknown technology.

5) Worth checking out....
He suggests that Central American mines are well worth further research, as in this case the methods suggested by scientists, unlike in the case of copper, are unsatisfactory.
There are a number of long mine shafts that are perfectly or amost perfectly circular. As a miner, he knows how rock works, and says these are a truly staggering achievement..no-one knows how they were cut. It is suggested that fire was used, and this IS a workable method...BUT, fire by nature directs it`s heat upwards, and this method tends to form `onion` shaped tunnels. Possibly they used many small fires..but this would have been very inefficient.
Overall..there is no adequate solution as yet for these workings, and research needs to be carried out by someone knowledgeable, who could, for instance, look for heated rock at the top of the tunnels.

Regards, Hagrid.
 
The only method of ancient mining I really recalled from school was the "bell" method where they dug directly down for a bit and then mined it out until it was bell shaped. Then they moved down the seam a bit and started anew.

Some of the Roman mining technology & methods can be foudn here:
http://www.unc.edu/~duncan/personal/roman_mining/deep-vein_mining.htm

Some old mining techniques can be found here:
http://www.museumbor.org.yu/istorije.htm
http://archaeology.ncl.ac.uk/undergraduate/studentpages/lawrence_moran/BPMprehistoricmining.htm


I think that if ancient mining occured then it would have been fairly small in scale, probably there are many mine workings buried under tons of fallen rubble and rocks and earth and have so far escaped detection.
 
Many_Angled_One said:
I think that if ancient mining occured then it would have been fairly small in scale, probably there are many mine workings buried under tons of fallen rubble and rocks and earth and have so far escaped detection.

Good Links, Many_Angled One,
re your last point, that is very true. The miner tells me that subsequent generations would find the old workings/mineral lodes, and generally produce much bigger tunnels that obscure all previous traces. This is a particularly important factor in the UK, where the Victorians are known to have obliterated the remains of many ancient workings, leaving no record.

Regards, Hagrid.
 
But I have read somewhere of ancient copper mines discovered in the USA somewhere (probably where Cornish miners settled). These workings were apparently quite large, and seemed to have nothing to do with the Indian tribes who lived in the area, and who had a low-tech lifestyle. If I come across any links I'll pass them on.



The "Indians" in America were far from low-tech. The Hopewell and Adena cultures had an expansive trade in copper well before any Europeans set foot on the New World.

Archeological evidence has proven this time and time again, such as copper found in burial mounds and pyramids, copper from Michigan being found in Mexico, etc.

Also, the skeletal remains in these mounds are Native American and not Cornish.

There's no credible evidence that any Europeans contributed to these cultures at all...which flourished between 100 BC to 1000 AD.

If you need any proof of their technology, take a look at some of the mounds they created, especially the Newark complex in Ohio.
 
did anybody watch "Britain BC" last night? Copper mines that had miles and miles of tunnels underground that were several thousand years old! Cant remember where it was though :(
 
I loved the whole program excpt for one bit. Why are people so ready and adamant that certain things were offerings to the god or there for religeous reasons. For example a pile of granite rocks (hammers for copper) were declared to be a votive offering tot heir gods. er.... more likely it was a stache of extra hammers inc ase your broke or you lost it, it would save you trampign through all those tunnels to go and get another one dont you think? Also the declarationt hat they believe that copper "grew" as a living thing and that they had to "feed" it by leaving meat and thigns for it? Yes they were bones etc in there, personally I would think they are more likely some ancient miners pack-lunch and that he coudlnt be bothered coming back out and putting in a bin.
 
Aye, that's something that annoys me about archaeologists too. It's always votive offerings and sacrificial victims - never lost property and murders, which are surely just as likely.
 
I have been screaming that myself for years. If they find a dog pendant....its a Dog Cult. If they find a copper mine with tools lying where they were left......the tools become offerings and our prehistoric people suddenly believe that the copper grows from the ground and that they must leave offerings...rather than just put their tools down.

Of course, copper does grow from the rock but it does so without our help and I am sure that prehistoric man realised that.
 
Well they mined that particular area extensively for thousands of years....you would think they would have noticed that the bits they took out never "regrew".

They are FAR to eager to assume religious or supernatural reasons for our ancestors doing things, to the extent they overlook the obvious mundane reasosn for them. Yes it may be more exciting but its less likely to be the truth.
 
Completely- look at of important finds and it seems like about half of them are along the lines of "We actually had a few of these lying about for the last fifty years, but we'd assumed they were ritual artifacts until someone actually looked at them and pointed out that they looked like...

Makes you wonder what things we have now that would be considered ritual objects by Archaeologists of the future...
 
There was an article recently on one of the online science mags, can't remember which one, about a new theory about the formation of the moon. They said that at the time of the planetary impact that created our moon (about 4-5 billion years ago) the earth was fully formed and had an atmosphere.

The earth had been around for 1-2 billion years before this event. There is every possibility that there was a civilization here on earth before that happened, but unfortunately the earth was turned into a ball of magma and gas due to the impact.:furious:
 
This was the nearest thread to what I wanted to write about - what would the existance of the so-called Ancient Greek Computer do to support the existance of mines in the past? I had heard it refered to, but never saw a picture until another thread on ghost hands brought up this site:

http://www.whom.co.uk/squelch/unexplained_myst.htm

The ancient computer is #7, and this is what it says:

07 An Ancient Greek
Computer In 1900 - fragments of encrusted bronze - dated so the first century BC - were recovered from an ancient shipwreck off the island of Antikyshera - near Crete. In 1958 - science historian - Dr Derek de Solla Price - recognized the importance of the discovery. X-rays of the fragments revealed a system of over 20 gearwheels and engraved scales. He deduced that here was an ancient mechanical computing device used so work out the motions of the sun - moon and planets. Nothing like this 'computer' was to be seen in Europe until 1000 years later and there is no trace in ancient Greek records of such technology. Our pictures show the original fragments together wish a replica of the device.


At the very least, it shows an intriate technology was availible in ancient times, an maybe there are more metals and more need for it than we would think looking at what we have now in museums.
 
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The refutation of ancient technology - the refutation of anc

I ran across a site with a very interesting (but horribly designed) section on alternative archaeology and OOPArts while I was looking for something else altogether. It includes the
Antikythera mechanism along with most of the other well known objects. The oop page is here but the whole site is worth a visit for anyone interested in the area.

The original links are broken. They led to the Bad Archaeology site:
http://www.badarchaeology.com


(Slightly OT, but a general tip for horrible looking sites: download opera and then use "Author Mode" to remove all the backgrounds and outlandish colourschemes from the pages...)
 
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rynner said:
But I have read somewhere of ancient copper mines discovered in the USA somewhere (probably where Cornish miners settled). These workings were apparently quite large, and seemed to have nothing to do with the Indian tribes who lived in the area, and who had a low-tech lifestyle. If I come across any links I'll pass them on.

Ryn, as far as I've been able to figure, these theories are the brain(?)-child of a woman named Betty Sodder who wrote some articles & books in the early 90's. (And have since been frequently cited by any number of 'alternative archaeology' folks.) I can't find a complete reprint of any of them on-line, but here's the basic synopsis:

Missing: 500,000 tons of copper

For some 1800 years, beginning abruptly about 3000 BC, some industrious peoples mined ore equivalent to 500,000 tons of copper from Michigan's Isle Royale and Keweenaw Peninsula. Who were these mysterious miners, and what happened to all all that copper? It certainly hasn't been found in the relics of North American Indians. And where was the ore smelted? About all the unidentified miners left behind are some of the crude tools they used to pound out chunks of ore from their pit mines (5000 pit mines on Isle Royale alone). Outside of some cairns and slabrock ruins, there is little to help pin down these miners. Mainstream archeologists attribute all these immense labors to a North American "Copper Culture" -- certainly not to copper-hungry visitors from foreign shores. Admittedly, many copper artifacts have been dug up from North American mounds, but only a tiny fraction of the metal the Michigan mines must have yielded.

Curiously, North American Indian mounds have contained copper sheets made in the shape of an animal hide. Called "reels," their function, if any, is unknown. The reels do, however, resemble oddly shaped copper ingots common in European Bronze Age com merce. Their peculiar shape earned these ingots the name "oxhydes." They have been found in Bronze Age shipwrecks, and are even said to be portrayed in wall paintings in Egyptian tombs. The standardized hide-like shape, with its four convenient handles, was useful in carrying and stacking the heavy ingots. Could the reels from the North American mounds have been copied from the oxhydes? It is tempting to speculate (as we are wont to do) that the Copper Culture miners were actually Europeans, or perhaps Native Americans employed or enslaved by Europeans -- an omen of future, more devastating invasions! (Sodders, Betty; "Who Mined American Copper 5,000 Years Ago?" Ancient American, 1:28, September/October 1993.)

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm


A in-no-uncertain-terms refutation of her theories by a mainstream Michigan archaeologist can be found here:

The State of Our Knowledge About Ancient Copper Mining in Michigan
The Michigan Archaeologist 41(2-3):119-138.
Susan R. Martin 1995

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html

I realize the most recent of these is ten years old, so I'm not sure what, if anything, has happened since then re: this topic.
 
Brad Steiger mentioned the ancient Northern Michigan
mines in many of his books -- I'll have to check and see
if Ms. Sodder was his source (he is very good at bibliographies.)

He also presented evidence of the "harvesting" of crude oil from
areas of Pennsylvania in ancient times. Medicines?
Does crude oil burn?

TVgeek
 
wouldnt any mine that produces any ore have to have a nearby foundry?
either to process the ore into whichever pure metal or to simply shape it
why would you dig up copper and then transport it in its raw state?
they did this in this country then iirc used canals later on when the amounts of ore went balistic.
so any old mine would either have a transport system nearby or a foundry that could be excavated.
 
I was thinking about this last night for some reason and I was struck by a questionable assumption:
Well, one of the essential ingredients of technology is, of course, metal.

Would it not be possible to have a technologically advanced society that got by without metals at all- one capable of living in a less resource-intensive way and basing their technologies on natural materials? It wouldn't be the same as our society but it could have existed at a high level of technological and social advancement without leaving many traces- especially over thousands of years.

I'm not suggesting that such a society necessarily existed but that it is not impossible that one could have.
 
so if our own society suddenly came to an end
just what evedence would remain after say 500,000 years?
this wouldnt include any destruction by an asteroid or super volcano,or primitve ape like creatures scavenging and reusing what was left and forgotten in the vastness of time.
 
Tin Finger said:
wouldnt any mine that produces any ore have to have a nearby foundry?
either to process the ore into whichever pure metal or to simply shape it
why would you dig up copper and then transport it in its raw state?
they did this in this country then iirc used canals later on when the amounts of ore went balistic.
so any old mine would either have a transport system nearby or a foundry that could be excavated.
Cornwall had plenty of metal ores, but little fuel to smelt them.

Much of this ore was sent to Wales (by sea), where they had coal for smelting.

Similarly with China Clay. Rather than import coal for the firing of porcelaine, the clay was (and still is) exported.

This transport activity in ancient times would presumably have been in wooden ships, which tend not to survive as archaeological relics (even assuming they were not broken up and/or burnt at the end of their working lives).
 
Hope someone here knows :D but I seem to remember someone saying that the iron age should've occured before the copper as iron is easier to extract and forge.
 
Gadaffi_Duck said:
Hope someone here knows :D but I seem to remember someone saying that the iron age should've occured before the copper as iron is easier to extract and forge.
Maybe, in oxygen poor atmospheres. But mostly, copper is much easier to extract than iron, which needs much higher temperatures in carbon rich conditions before reducing to its metallic element from its oxides and salts. Copper occasionally turns up as free copper metal. It's also softer and easier to work than iron.

However, some iron does exist in nature as meteoric iron, which is also very high in nickel, as an alloy. Innuit in the Arctic have been using meteoric iron for centuries.

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/WestTech/xancient.htm
 
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