Minor Strangeness

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
29,908
Reaction score
32,936
Points
309
Location
HM The Tower of London
I was once involved in a similar incident (though not for 90 minutes) and it didn't occur to me to try and move her. I know you are not suppoed to move people who are hurt. Luckily a couple of traffic wardens came along and stood as a sort of shield diverting the traffic but it was pretty scary.
The traffic wardens were putting themselves in danger. They shouldn't have done that. Leave it to the police!
 

Min Bannister

Possessed dog
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
4,682
Reaction score
6,185
Points
234
The traffic wardens were putting themselves in danger. They shouldn't have done that. Leave it to the police!
I guess some people just don't like seeing others hurt or in danger and will do whatever they can to help. Maybe I will be the person needing the help one day and I will be grateful to the person who helped.
 

Trevp666

It was like that when I got here.........honest!!!
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
2,223
Reaction score
5,110
Points
219
Location
Welwyn Garden City (but oddly, not an actual city)
They should have done what they do on the motorways.....7 miles of cones for one bloke in the road.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
29,908
Reaction score
32,936
Points
309
Location
HM The Tower of London
I guess some people just don't like seeing others hurt or in danger and will do whatever they can to help. Maybe I will be the person needing the help one day and I will be grateful to the person who helped.
Good points, but people do put themselves in danger when there's no obligation to.

As an example, the RNLI advice on helping people who are drowning is to stay out of the water, raise the alarm, throw them something to hold onto, and where possible reach them from the bank to help them out.
RNI advice
Learning how to save others without being hurt yourself is the way forward!
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
:dunno:

maximus otter
Don't know what the shrug shoulders is about. Awfully big difference between waiting 90 minutes a mile away from the hospital in a dangerous situation in an urban area with the Police not arsing themselves to attend at all to divert traffic, and the ludicrously dangerous driving I have witnessed to save a few seconds in journey time.
We're both preaching to the unconvertable though aren't we?
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
Good points, but people do put themselves in danger when there's no obligation to.

As an example, the RNLI advice on helping people who are drowning is to stay out of the water, raise the alarm, throw them something to hold onto, and where possible reach them from the bank to help them out.
RNI advice
Learning how to save others without being hurt yourself is the way forward!
There was an incident some years ago in Blackpool where a dog fell into the sea and struggled to get out. 2 people drowned, including I believe a Police officer, trying to save it. The dog needless to say found it's own way out.

I'm sure I've read that in some countries it's a criminal offence NOT to go to someone's aid if it is proved you were able to. Could of course have changed now.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
29,908
Reaction score
32,936
Points
309
Location
HM The Tower of London
There was an incident some years ago in Blackpool where a dog fell into the sea and struggled to get out. 2 people drowned, including I believe a Police officer, trying to save it. The dog needless to say found it's own way out.

I'm sure I've read that in some countries it's a criminal offence NOT to go to someone's aid if it is proved you were able to. Could of course have changed now.
The dog incident was commemorated recently to remember the three people who died.

The dog drowned too. I read about the incident at the time and saw a photo of the 'DOG Of DEATH' being carried away by its back legs.

Even if it were the law that one must aid others in an emergency, I'd still think twice. Perhaps being a parent has made me more cautious.
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
The dog incident was commemorated recently to remember the three people who died.

The dog drowned too. I read about the incident at the time and saw a photo of the 'DOG Of DEATH' being carried away by its back legs.

Even if it were the law that one must aid others in an emergency, I'd still think twice. Perhaps being a parent has made me more cautious.
I must be remembering a different incident elsewhere where the owner and one other died and the dog got out.

Actually I think it's more of a man thing to storm in and try to sort out a situation even if his help is uncalled for and indeed possibly unwanted. :)
 

cycleboy2

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
3,506
Points
169
The transport system is finely regulated for commuting, more in some countries, less in others. In Japan, schedules are very tight. Public transport is adjusted so that you can do commutes waiting little. If you lose your transportation, you have to wait for the next vehicle (and cycle). These are heavily enforced, and there are huge penalties for the drivers that miss their schedule. A derailment in Japan [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment ] happened because the driver was late, and traveling too fast. The point being that often there are no shortcuts if you miss your transportation.

Another thing is that the semaphores are regulated to an ideal traveling speed. If you use it, you will get your way open through transit. If not, you will get out of the schedule, and you will see a lot more red lights.

With all that said, if I was God and I was wanting to save people from bad jobs, making them miss the bus would be the less noticeable way. There is no need to do things with unnecessary effort.
There's a fascinating/disturbing/worrying documentary on the Amagasaki derailment – which resulted in 107 deaths, including the driver's. All because he was fractionally behind time in a country where that is seen as unacceptable. I think this is the correct documentary (I'm supposed to be working).

 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
6,651
Reaction score
13,343
Points
309
There was an incident some years ago in Blackpool where a dog fell into the sea and struggled to get out. 2 people drowned, including I believe a Police officer, trying to save it. The dog needless to say found it's own way out.

I'm sure I've read that in some countries it's a criminal offence NOT to go to someone's aid if it is proved you were able to. Could of course have changed now.
“In some countries, there exists a legal requirement for citizens to assist people in distress, unless doing so would put themselves or others in harm's way. Citizens are often required to, at minimum, call the local emergency number, unless doing so would be harmful, in which case the authorities should be contacted when the harmful situation has been removed. As of 2012, there were such laws in several countries, including[1] Albania, Andorra,[25] Argentina,[26] Austria,[27] Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Croatia,[28] Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia,[29] Finland, France,[30] Germany,[31] Greece,[32] Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland,[33] Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Switzerland and Tunisia.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

maximus otter
 

cycleboy2

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
3,506
Points
169
I agree. The incidents of ambulance, police, bus drivers, couriers and the like speeding dangerously around our neck of the woods is getting utterly ridiculous. Clearly they are all doing it to meet some imposed time target. Only very recently a police officer killed himself on the M6 "whilst travelling to attend an accident scene".
Ambulance drivers seem to be the worst, yet it seems very common to wait hours for one to attend an emergency. Only last year Ms PeteS came across an elderly man who had collapsed in the middle of a busy road. It was dark and wet and this happened one mile from the hospital. She was told by 999 operative not to move him on any account- the ambulance took 90 minutes to get there. Yeah yeah staff shortages blah blah, but then why set clearly stress inducing unattainable targets on these services?
Having done a first-aid course, there are exceptions to the rule of never moving an accident victim, the most notable of which is if that person is in danger from where they are – and in the middle of a busy road could qualify as that. If you or other people were to stay there and help there could be even more victims and potential fatalities. Unless you could get a driver to stop with a safety triangle or something similar, moving the person may have been the best option.
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
“In some countries, there exists a legal requirement for citizens to assist people in distress, unless doing so would put themselves or others in harm's way. Citizens are often required to, at minimum, call the local emergency number, unless doing so would be harmful, in which case the authorities should be contacted when the harmful situation has been removed. As of 2012, there were such laws in several countries, including[1] Albania, Andorra,[25] Argentina,[26] Austria,[27] Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Croatia,[28] Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia,[29] Finland, France,[30] Germany,[31] Greece,[32] Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland,[33] Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Switzerland and Tunisia.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

maximus otter
Yes I thought it was more common than you would think. This type of legislation must lead to something of a mine field in terms of legal argument about the extent of distress a person was perceived to be in and the extent of assistance someone thought it appropriate to give. I guess if it came to it only a court would be in a position to decide.
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
Having done a first-aid course, there are exceptions to the rule of never moving an accident victim, the most notable of which is if that person is in danger from where they are – and in the middle of a busy road could qualify as that. If you or other people were to stay there and help there could be even more victims and potential fatalities. Unless you could get a driver to stop with a safety triangle or something similar, moving the person may have been the best option.
Yes I'm afraid I'd have waited maybe half an hour if that and then moved the chap, possibly just putting him in the car and taken him the one mile to the hospital, denying all knowledge thereafter if it came to it.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
29,908
Reaction score
32,936
Points
309
Location
HM The Tower of London
I must be remembering a different incident elsewhere where the owner and one other died and the dog got out.

Actually I think it's more of a man thing to storm in and try to sort out a situation even if his help is uncalled for and indeed possibly unwanted. :)
That rings a bell too. Was it an incident with a frozen lake?

When I kept dogs our usual walkies area had a brook and lakes, which I thought safe in the summer but wouldn't go near when they were iced over. Common sense really.
 

packshaud

Devoted Cultist
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
117
Reaction score
278
Points
64
Location
Brazil
“In some countries, there exists a legal requirement for citizens to assist people in distress, unless doing so would put themselves or others in harm's way. Citizens are often required to, at minimum, call the local emergency number, unless doing so would be harmful, in which case the authorities should be contacted when the harmful situation has been removed. As of 2012, there were such laws in several countries, including[1] Albania, Andorra,[25] Argentina,[26] Austria,[27] Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Croatia,[28] Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia,[29] Finland, France,[30] Germany,[31] Greece,[32] Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland,[33] Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Switzerland and Tunisia.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

maximus otter
Yes, but there is the fine print. No one should touch a wounded person without training or specific instructions from rescue services; paramedics, upon arrival, will decide the best way to move the victim. Even giving water to a wounded person is bad; it might aggravate the condition. And pulling out perforating objects from someone can cause fatal bleeding. One can refuse to give medical assistance, on grounds of not being able to provide it properly--or risk legal penalties in case something goes wrong, for illegal practice of medicine.
 

ChasFink

Ephemeral Spectre
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
398
Reaction score
844
Points
94
Throughout the U.S., and elsewhere as well, there are "good Samaritan" laws that protect regular people from liability if they render first aid in an emergency. The exact protections and circumstances vary from place to place. In this situation, despite advice from the emergency operator, the person on the scene would certainly be a better judge of the danger of being on the road. Unfortunately, I don't believe the law in the U.K. is quite so clear.
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
That rings a bell too. Was it an incident with a frozen lake?

When I kept dogs our usual walkies area had a brook and lakes, which I thought safe in the summer but wouldn't go near when they were iced over. Common sense really.
Might have been but I thought it involved the sea, but could be misremembering.
Talking of lakes, 3 or 4 years ago the local lake about 400/500 metres across froze. I was astonished to see a bloke walking across pushing his toddler in a push chair with a dog on it's lead. I despair sometimes.
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
Throughout the U.S., and elsewhere as well, there are "good Samaritan" laws that protect regular people from liability if they render first aid in an emergency.
Now that's something I did not know. I'm sure there will be some legal precedent in the UK, albeit not enshrined in a specific law.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
29,908
Reaction score
32,936
Points
309
Location
HM The Tower of London
Yes, but there is the fine print. No one should touch a wounded person without training or specific instructions from rescue services; paramedics, upon arrival, will decide the best way to move the victim. Even giving water to a wounded person is bad; it might aggravate the condition. And pulling out perforating objects from someone can cause fatal bleeding. One can refuse to give medical assistance, on grounds of not being able to provide it properly--or risk legal penalties in case something goes wrong, for illegal practice of medicine.
In which country does this apply?
 

EnolaGaia

I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...
Staff member
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
18,111
Reaction score
24,108
Points
309
Location
Out of Bounds
Throughout the U.S., and elsewhere as well, there are "good Samaritan" laws that protect regular people from liability if they render first aid in an emergency. The exact protections and circumstances vary from place to place. ...
There are lots of variations, as well as the dichotomy between Good Samaritan statutes and "Duty to Rescue" statutes ...

Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or whom they believe to be, injured, ill, in peril, or otherwise incapacitated.[1] The protection is intended to reduce bystanders' hesitation to assist, for fear of being sued or prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death. ...

By contrast, a duty to rescue law requires people to offer assistance and holds those who fail to do so liable. ...

The principles contained in good Samaritan laws more typically operate in countries in which the foundation of the legal system is English Common Law, such as Australia. In many countries that use civil law as the foundation for their legal systems, the same legal effect is more typically achieved using a principle of duty to rescue. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
 

brownmane

off kilter
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
1,031
Reaction score
2,022
Points
154
Location
Ontario, Canada
There was an item about this on R4's Today programme this morning.

The delays mainly arise from paramedics having to wait at hospitals to hand over patients at A&E reception. So more A&E reception staff need to be trained and deployed to make the process faster and allow paramedics to get out and attend at incidents.
Yes that sounds familiar here. Ontario, probably not the only Canadian province, has had trouble with Emerg wait times. And sometimes the paramedics cannot leave the hospital immediately because there are no hospital medical staff to attend to the patient.
 

brownmane

off kilter
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
1,031
Reaction score
2,022
Points
154
Location
Ontario, Canada
Regarding the Good Samaritan idea, I don't know if it is a law. I have first aid/cpr training. In Canada it is no law saying that I need to respond to an emergency.

However, when I go through recertification, it is always explained that no civilian has been successfully charged in court for assisting someone in an emergency situation. The caveat being that you do not go beyond your scope of training, for example, I would not do anything much beyond calling 911, making sure that whatever I am doing doesn't put me in danger, and perhaps stopping any bleeding or performing cpr if needed.

If a person has fallen or you don't know, then they are not to be moved unless they are in danger. But you still don't put yourself in danger, after all you can't do anything if you are in trouble as well.

I had listened to a radio program discussing how likely people (bystanders) will react to an emergency situation. You are more likely to receive help from a bystander if they are alone. People will stand around for someone else to do something rather than be the first. Also, people who have had experience with emergency situations respond quicker. Apparently if people have even discussed or envisioned what they would do in an emergency, they will be more apt to respond
 

packshaud

Devoted Cultist
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
117
Reaction score
278
Points
64
Location
Brazil
In which country does this apply?
I'm not sure about Brazil, but I suspect that in case of death because of the help provided there might be legal responsibility.

But in the United States of America, I think this might be an issue.

Maybe I watched too much television, but my perception of the US is "land of the lawyers." I ask our American members to please say some words on this. I'm sure that giving legal, financial, or medical advice without a license there will land you in a world of hurt.
 

EnolaGaia

I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...
Staff member
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
18,111
Reaction score
24,108
Points
309
Location
Out of Bounds
... Maybe I watched too much television, but my perception of the US is "land of the lawyers." I ask our American members to please say some words on this. I'm sure that giving legal, financial, or medical advice without a license there will land you in a world of hurt.
That's why Good Samaritan laws exist in all 50 states and the District of Columbia - to shield responders / aid-givers by eliminating legal jeopardy in being held automatically and uniquely liable for whatever happens to / with a person in dire need.
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
This part of the thread has reminded me of an exercise undertaken in the UK by some organisation (possibly a charity) a good few years ago. They got someone to lie on the pavement on a busy main road pretending to be unconscious , in an effort to establish the extent to which motorists would stop and render assistance. The organisation was quite rightly bollocked severely for causing potential danger to the public.
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
29,908
Reaction score
32,936
Points
309
Location
HM The Tower of London
On the subject of train drivers speeding; British trains are subject top strict speed regulations. Drivers are now complaining that 'railway enthusiasts' with radar guns are reporting trains for apparently speeding.

As the devices aren't issued or supervised by the police the information they produce isn't acceptable as evidence in any legal proceedings. The railway companies still have to waste time investigating allegations of speeding though.
 

PeteS

Seeking refuge
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
3,537
Points
154
Another little strange thing yesterday and weirdly at the very same junction where the previously reported mysteriously appearing pedestrian incident occurred. Again I was at the front of the queue at the traffic lights keeping a really good eye open for trans dimensional beings this time. Suddenly in the middle of the adjacent tarmac drive adjacent to the road I noticed there was a thin upward stream of what appeared to be smoke but could have been dense steam. It was too powerful to be a dropped ciggie or vape thingie and must have been coming through a very small fissure since it was quite forceful and there were no obvious cracks in the tarmac . There were a couple of blokes standing nearby who appeared unconcerned. Only had a chance to look for a few seconds before I had to move off but it looked quite peculiar. Only explanation that I could think of was that someone was doing some sort of smoke test on the drainage system to the house to locate a leak. Weird.
 

Mythopoeika

I am a meat popsicle
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
41,122
Reaction score
30,771
Points
309
Location
Inside a starship, watching puny humans from afar
Another little strange thing yesterday and weirdly at the very same junction where the previously reported mysteriously appearing pedestrian incident occurred. Again I was at the front of the queue at the traffic lights keeping a really good eye open for trans dimensional beings this time. Suddenly in the middle of the adjacent tarmac drive adjacent to the road I noticed there was a thin upward stream of what appeared to be smoke but could have been dense steam. It was too powerful to be a dropped ciggie or vape thingie and must have been coming through a very small fissure since it was quite forceful and there were no obvious cracks in the tarmac . There were a couple of blokes standing nearby who appeared unconcerned. Only had a chance to look for a few seconds before I had to move off but it looked quite peculiar. Only explanation that I could think of was that someone was doing some sort of smoke test on the drainage system to the house to locate a leak. Weird.
Was it freshly-laid tarmac? Might have still been warm.
 

Mythopoeika

I am a meat popsicle
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
41,122
Reaction score
30,771
Points
309
Location
Inside a starship, watching puny humans from afar
Top