Minor Strangeness

PeteS

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I'd've taken the risk and moved the bloke or left him there and kept an eye from the side of the road.
I probably would have moved him as well. Fortunately or unfortunately Ms PeteS is pretty hidebound by rules and regulations regarding the elderly and of course, ridiculously, having been told under no circumstances to move him, you are open to legal ramifications if something goes wrong. It would have been handled differently if I'd been there.:)
 

escargot

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Opposing views - never the twain shall meet :).
Thing is, if you see some stranger in a dangerous situation and decide to help you're taking responsibility.

That's OK if it doesn't place you in danger too. Would *your* family be happy if *you* were injured or killed too? Absolutely not.

This comes up in my job now and then. People put themselves in harm's way either accidentally or deliberately and staff have been known to intervene.

Not me though - when it has happened in front of me I've rung for help from the appropriate agency. Not getting myself killed for a stranger.
 

PeteS

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There was an item about this on R4's Today programme this morning.

The delays mainly arise from paramedics having to wait at hospitals to hand over patients at A&E reception. So more A&E reception staff need to be trained and deployed to make the process faster and allow paramedics to get out and attend at incidents.
That's certainly the case at the local hospital which is one mile away from where the incident was. Scooping the guy into a car and into A&E he would have been attended to in 5 minutes and not had to lie there in the pouring rain and freezing cold for 90 minutes.
 

PeteS

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That's OK if it doesn't place you in danger too. Would *your* family be happy if *you* were injured or killed too? Absolutely not.
Agreed. I would have gone freaking apeshot if something had happened to Ms PeteS because of the emergency services instructions and lack of urgent response. The same if it had been my relative lying in the road and possibly dying.
 

escargot

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That's certainly the case at the local hospital which is one mile away from where the incident was. Scooping the guy into a car and into A&E he would have been attended to in 5 minutes and not had to lie there in the pouring rain and freezing cold for 90 minutes.
Yup, our local A&E backs onto the most dangerous road in the county where on bad days the smashed-up bodies of motorcyclists rain down like confetti. It'd be quicker to send the handyman out with his wheelbarrow!
 

escargot

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Agreed. I would have gone freaking apeshot if something had happened to Ms PeteS because of the emergency services instructions and lack of urgent response. The same if it had been my relative lying in the road and possibly dying.
There's a video on YouTube of a man trying to jump in front of a fast train, who is foiled by a woman who leaves her buggy with a child in it to rush off and grab him. Her (I assume) partner is left on the platform with the child.

If I were the partner of that woman I would not be happy with her. Apart from the danger that the buggy could have slipped towards the train, the woman herself could have been dragged in front of the train. Makes the blood run cold.
 

Min Bannister

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That does seem like a funny idea, to advise them to leave him there. On the first aid courses I've attended the first thing you check is 'Danger' - you don't want to put yourself in danger by sitting in a road, and to be honest, you don't want to leave the casualty somewhere where they're in danger, if you can reasonably move them. I know people might say "oh but you could make their condition worse" but their condition is going to be dead if they get hit by a truck. I'm not sure anyone would have blamed a well-meaning person who wanted to get him out of the road and save some traffic accidents.
I was once involved in a similar incident (though not for 90 minutes) and it didn't occur to me to try and move her. I know you are not suppoed to move people who are hurt. Luckily a couple of traffic wardens came along and stood as a sort of shield diverting the traffic but it was pretty scary.
 

escargot

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I was once involved in a similar incident (though not for 90 minutes) and it didn't occur to me to try and move her. I know you are not suppoed to move people who are hurt. Luckily a couple of traffic wardens came along and stood as a sort of shield diverting the traffic but it was pretty scary.
The traffic wardens were putting themselves in danger. They shouldn't have done that. Leave it to the police!
 

Min Bannister

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The traffic wardens were putting themselves in danger. They shouldn't have done that. Leave it to the police!
I guess some people just don't like seeing others hurt or in danger and will do whatever they can to help. Maybe I will be the person needing the help one day and I will be grateful to the person who helped.
 

escargot

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I guess some people just don't like seeing others hurt or in danger and will do whatever they can to help. Maybe I will be the person needing the help one day and I will be grateful to the person who helped.
Good points, but people do put themselves in danger when there's no obligation to.

As an example, the RNLI advice on helping people who are drowning is to stay out of the water, raise the alarm, throw them something to hold onto, and where possible reach them from the bank to help them out.
RNI advice
Learning how to save others without being hurt yourself is the way forward!
 

PeteS

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Don't know what the shrug shoulders is about. Awfully big difference between waiting 90 minutes a mile away from the hospital in a dangerous situation in an urban area with the Police not arsing themselves to attend at all to divert traffic, and the ludicrously dangerous driving I have witnessed to save a few seconds in journey time.
We're both preaching to the unconvertable though aren't we?
 

PeteS

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Good points, but people do put themselves in danger when there's no obligation to.

As an example, the RNLI advice on helping people who are drowning is to stay out of the water, raise the alarm, throw them something to hold onto, and where possible reach them from the bank to help them out.
RNI advice
Learning how to save others without being hurt yourself is the way forward!
There was an incident some years ago in Blackpool where a dog fell into the sea and struggled to get out. 2 people drowned, including I believe a Police officer, trying to save it. The dog needless to say found it's own way out.

I'm sure I've read that in some countries it's a criminal offence NOT to go to someone's aid if it is proved you were able to. Could of course have changed now.
 

escargot

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There was an incident some years ago in Blackpool where a dog fell into the sea and struggled to get out. 2 people drowned, including I believe a Police officer, trying to save it. The dog needless to say found it's own way out.

I'm sure I've read that in some countries it's a criminal offence NOT to go to someone's aid if it is proved you were able to. Could of course have changed now.
The dog incident was commemorated recently to remember the three people who died.

The dog drowned too. I read about the incident at the time and saw a photo of the 'DOG Of DEATH' being carried away by its back legs.

Even if it were the law that one must aid others in an emergency, I'd still think twice. Perhaps being a parent has made me more cautious.
 

PeteS

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The dog incident was commemorated recently to remember the three people who died.

The dog drowned too. I read about the incident at the time and saw a photo of the 'DOG Of DEATH' being carried away by its back legs.

Even if it were the law that one must aid others in an emergency, I'd still think twice. Perhaps being a parent has made me more cautious.
I must be remembering a different incident elsewhere where the owner and one other died and the dog got out.

Actually I think it's more of a man thing to storm in and try to sort out a situation even if his help is uncalled for and indeed possibly unwanted. :)
 

cycleboy2

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The transport system is finely regulated for commuting, more in some countries, less in others. In Japan, schedules are very tight. Public transport is adjusted so that you can do commutes waiting little. If you lose your transportation, you have to wait for the next vehicle (and cycle). These are heavily enforced, and there are huge penalties for the drivers that miss their schedule. A derailment in Japan [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment ] happened because the driver was late, and traveling too fast. The point being that often there are no shortcuts if you miss your transportation.

Another thing is that the semaphores are regulated to an ideal traveling speed. If you use it, you will get your way open through transit. If not, you will get out of the schedule, and you will see a lot more red lights.

With all that said, if I was God and I was wanting to save people from bad jobs, making them miss the bus would be the less noticeable way. There is no need to do things with unnecessary effort.
There's a fascinating/disturbing/worrying documentary on the Amagasaki derailment – which resulted in 107 deaths, including the driver's. All because he was fractionally behind time in a country where that is seen as unacceptable. I think this is the correct documentary (I'm supposed to be working).

 

maximus otter

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There was an incident some years ago in Blackpool where a dog fell into the sea and struggled to get out. 2 people drowned, including I believe a Police officer, trying to save it. The dog needless to say found it's own way out.

I'm sure I've read that in some countries it's a criminal offence NOT to go to someone's aid if it is proved you were able to. Could of course have changed now.
“In some countries, there exists a legal requirement for citizens to assist people in distress, unless doing so would put themselves or others in harm's way. Citizens are often required to, at minimum, call the local emergency number, unless doing so would be harmful, in which case the authorities should be contacted when the harmful situation has been removed. As of 2012, there were such laws in several countries, including[1] Albania, Andorra,[25] Argentina,[26] Austria,[27] Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Croatia,[28] Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia,[29] Finland, France,[30] Germany,[31] Greece,[32] Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland,[33] Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Switzerland and Tunisia.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

maximus otter
 

cycleboy2

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I agree. The incidents of ambulance, police, bus drivers, couriers and the like speeding dangerously around our neck of the woods is getting utterly ridiculous. Clearly they are all doing it to meet some imposed time target. Only very recently a police officer killed himself on the M6 "whilst travelling to attend an accident scene".
Ambulance drivers seem to be the worst, yet it seems very common to wait hours for one to attend an emergency. Only last year Ms PeteS came across an elderly man who had collapsed in the middle of a busy road. It was dark and wet and this happened one mile from the hospital. She was told by 999 operative not to move him on any account- the ambulance took 90 minutes to get there. Yeah yeah staff shortages blah blah, but then why set clearly stress inducing unattainable targets on these services?
Having done a first-aid course, there are exceptions to the rule of never moving an accident victim, the most notable of which is if that person is in danger from where they are – and in the middle of a busy road could qualify as that. If you or other people were to stay there and help there could be even more victims and potential fatalities. Unless you could get a driver to stop with a safety triangle or something similar, moving the person may have been the best option.
 

PeteS

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“In some countries, there exists a legal requirement for citizens to assist people in distress, unless doing so would put themselves or others in harm's way. Citizens are often required to, at minimum, call the local emergency number, unless doing so would be harmful, in which case the authorities should be contacted when the harmful situation has been removed. As of 2012, there were such laws in several countries, including[1] Albania, Andorra,[25] Argentina,[26] Austria,[27] Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Croatia,[28] Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia,[29] Finland, France,[30] Germany,[31] Greece,[32] Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland,[33] Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Switzerland and Tunisia.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

maximus otter
Yes I thought it was more common than you would think. This type of legislation must lead to something of a mine field in terms of legal argument about the extent of distress a person was perceived to be in and the extent of assistance someone thought it appropriate to give. I guess if it came to it only a court would be in a position to decide.
 

PeteS

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Having done a first-aid course, there are exceptions to the rule of never moving an accident victim, the most notable of which is if that person is in danger from where they are – and in the middle of a busy road could qualify as that. If you or other people were to stay there and help there could be even more victims and potential fatalities. Unless you could get a driver to stop with a safety triangle or something similar, moving the person may have been the best option.
Yes I'm afraid I'd have waited maybe half an hour if that and then moved the chap, possibly just putting him in the car and taken him the one mile to the hospital, denying all knowledge thereafter if it came to it.
 

escargot

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I must be remembering a different incident elsewhere where the owner and one other died and the dog got out.

Actually I think it's more of a man thing to storm in and try to sort out a situation even if his help is uncalled for and indeed possibly unwanted. :)
That rings a bell too. Was it an incident with a frozen lake?

When I kept dogs our usual walkies area had a brook and lakes, which I thought safe in the summer but wouldn't go near when they were iced over. Common sense really.
 

packshaud

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“In some countries, there exists a legal requirement for citizens to assist people in distress, unless doing so would put themselves or others in harm's way. Citizens are often required to, at minimum, call the local emergency number, unless doing so would be harmful, in which case the authorities should be contacted when the harmful situation has been removed. As of 2012, there were such laws in several countries, including[1] Albania, Andorra,[25] Argentina,[26] Austria,[27] Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Croatia,[28] Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia,[29] Finland, France,[30] Germany,[31] Greece,[32] Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland,[33] Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Switzerland and Tunisia.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

maximus otter
Yes, but there is the fine print. No one should touch a wounded person without training or specific instructions from rescue services; paramedics, upon arrival, will decide the best way to move the victim. Even giving water to a wounded person is bad; it might aggravate the condition. And pulling out perforating objects from someone can cause fatal bleeding. One can refuse to give medical assistance, on grounds of not being able to provide it properly--or risk legal penalties in case something goes wrong, for illegal practice of medicine.
 

ChasFink

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Throughout the U.S., and elsewhere as well, there are "good Samaritan" laws that protect regular people from liability if they render first aid in an emergency. The exact protections and circumstances vary from place to place. In this situation, despite advice from the emergency operator, the person on the scene would certainly be a better judge of the danger of being on the road. Unfortunately, I don't believe the law in the U.K. is quite so clear.
 

PeteS

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That rings a bell too. Was it an incident with a frozen lake?

When I kept dogs our usual walkies area had a brook and lakes, which I thought safe in the summer but wouldn't go near when they were iced over. Common sense really.
Might have been but I thought it involved the sea, but could be misremembering.
Talking of lakes, 3 or 4 years ago the local lake about 400/500 metres across froze. I was astonished to see a bloke walking across pushing his toddler in a push chair with a dog on it's lead. I despair sometimes.
 

PeteS

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Throughout the U.S., and elsewhere as well, there are "good Samaritan" laws that protect regular people from liability if they render first aid in an emergency.
Now that's something I did not know. I'm sure there will be some legal precedent in the UK, albeit not enshrined in a specific law.
 

escargot

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Yes, but there is the fine print. No one should touch a wounded person without training or specific instructions from rescue services; paramedics, upon arrival, will decide the best way to move the victim. Even giving water to a wounded person is bad; it might aggravate the condition. And pulling out perforating objects from someone can cause fatal bleeding. One can refuse to give medical assistance, on grounds of not being able to provide it properly--or risk legal penalties in case something goes wrong, for illegal practice of medicine.
In which country does this apply?
 

EnolaGaia

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Throughout the U.S., and elsewhere as well, there are "good Samaritan" laws that protect regular people from liability if they render first aid in an emergency. The exact protections and circumstances vary from place to place. ...
There are lots of variations, as well as the dichotomy between Good Samaritan statutes and "Duty to Rescue" statutes ...

Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or whom they believe to be, injured, ill, in peril, or otherwise incapacitated.[1] The protection is intended to reduce bystanders' hesitation to assist, for fear of being sued or prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death. ...

By contrast, a duty to rescue law requires people to offer assistance and holds those who fail to do so liable. ...

The principles contained in good Samaritan laws more typically operate in countries in which the foundation of the legal system is English Common Law, such as Australia. In many countries that use civil law as the foundation for their legal systems, the same legal effect is more typically achieved using a principle of duty to rescue. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
 

brownmane

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There was an item about this on R4's Today programme this morning.

The delays mainly arise from paramedics having to wait at hospitals to hand over patients at A&E reception. So more A&E reception staff need to be trained and deployed to make the process faster and allow paramedics to get out and attend at incidents.
Yes that sounds familiar here. Ontario, probably not the only Canadian province, has had trouble with Emerg wait times. And sometimes the paramedics cannot leave the hospital immediately because there are no hospital medical staff to attend to the patient.
 

brownmane

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Regarding the Good Samaritan idea, I don't know if it is a law. I have first aid/cpr training. In Canada it is no law saying that I need to respond to an emergency.

However, when I go through recertification, it is always explained that no civilian has been successfully charged in court for assisting someone in an emergency situation. The caveat being that you do not go beyond your scope of training, for example, I would not do anything much beyond calling 911, making sure that whatever I am doing doesn't put me in danger, and perhaps stopping any bleeding or performing cpr if needed.

If a person has fallen or you don't know, then they are not to be moved unless they are in danger. But you still don't put yourself in danger, after all you can't do anything if you are in trouble as well.

I had listened to a radio program discussing how likely people (bystanders) will react to an emergency situation. You are more likely to receive help from a bystander if they are alone. People will stand around for someone else to do something rather than be the first. Also, people who have had experience with emergency situations respond quicker. Apparently if people have even discussed or envisioned what they would do in an emergency, they will be more apt to respond
 
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