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Miraculous Mattresses (Preserving Representations Of Occupants)

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Mighty_Emperor

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Clearly along the same lines as the Turin Shroud:

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-shroud-of-turin.756/
but worth its own mention (its fairly well known but it doesn't seem to have been mentioned here so.......).

Essentially in 1981 Les was given a bed at the Thornton Jospice and he passed away after 10 days. When they came to tidy up the bed the outline of his body was seen on the mattress cover and Father O'Leary took the cover into safe keeping.

All the information as well as images can be found in this PDF:

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/imprint.pdf

It has also been studied:

10. The St. Joseph Hospice mattress cover, brought from England to my laboratory by Father O’Leary was intensively studied chemically and by light, polarizing and phase microscopy. 3d photographs were made in cooperation with the late Dr. Giovanni Tamburelli of the Centro Studi e Laboratori Telecomminicazioni in Turin.
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http://e-forensicmedicine.net/ShroudBibliog.htm

there is also a tape of a lecture:

5 May 1988 - Ian Wilson: 'The Hospice Mattress'
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http://www.shroud.com/bsts.htm

And I believe he has written a book on it (the page also has another picture of the full length imprint):

http://www.manchester.com/interactive/exta2.html

Is it this (he has produced a number but that matches the date):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385127367/

It is my local miracle as it is just up the road and my family are part of the local 'Catholic mafia'. Also my grandmother spent her last years in Jospice.

It certainly has a lot to say about the natural explanation for the Turin Shroud (to do with the bacteria) - I'll have a nose around and see what my family comes up with.

Emps
 
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Let me start by saying that the mattress imprint looks very much to be a fake. While to me the Shroud of Turin does not immediately present as inauthentic, this item does.

But what do I know? Maybe as much as anybody else. I read several times that "It certainly has a lot to say about the natural explanation for the Turin Shroud" but nowhere is anything said.

I note the reference to writer Ian Brady who is alleged to believe: "the Liverpool mattress to be evidence that the imprint of a dead body can be rationally explained."

No rational explanation is offered.

One great difference between the shorud and the mattress cover is that the alleged image of Jesus was made via direct contact. With the mattress cover, the image is said to have come through pajamas.
 
Rube: Well a few thoughts:

1. Father O'Leary was 'old school' and I really couldn't see him faking anything like that. Most of the nursing staff work there on a voluntary basis and I know a number of them and I suspect it would have leaked out.

2. If it was fake then I would have expected a more 'classic' shroud pose - that one looks awfully realistic (with the 'thinning of the forearm, the 'wonky' buttocks, etc.).

3. The natural explanation would be one offered for the Turin Shroud in the recent documentary. A microbiologist was able to replicate the shroud from just bacteria growing on sweat. With that in mind you would expect the darker areas were there were voids and the light areas were the weight of the body was resting - which is sort of what you see.

4. If it was from sweat then it probably wouldn't have mattered if they were wearing pyjamas as the sweat would have gone through the fabric.

One thought as Father O'Leary is dead I wonder where it is? I presume it is still in the safe at Jospice. I wonder if they'd be interested in testing it somehow and what tests could be done?

Emps
 
Emperor said:
It has also been studied:

10. The St. Joseph Hospice mattress cover, brought from England to my laboratory by Father O’Leary was intensively studied chemically and by light, polarizing and phase microscopy. 3d photographs were made in cooperation with the late Dr. Giovanni Tamburelli of the Centro Studi e Laboratori Telecomminicazioni in Turin.
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http://e-forensicmedicine.net/ShroudBibliog.htm
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I email Dr/Prof Frederick T. Zugibe who's site that is about the study as a broken link points to shroud.com and I had assumed the information had been posted and was missing but he has got back to me to say it will be published on shroud.com (probably in April or May) along with various charts and 3D photos. SOmething to look forward to then :)

Emps
 
I read a big feature on this soon after it happened in the British Observer newspaper. May even still have it somewhere.
 
escargot said:
I read a big feature on this soon after it happened in the British Observer newspaper. May even still have it somewhere.
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Cool - I suspect it has been featured in FT around the time it first happened but I am missing issues from 1981 so.....

Emps
 
" Father O'Leary was 'old school' and I really couldn't see him faking anything like that."

Could you imagine him engaging in sex with minors?

No, I am not accusing - but the fact that he is "old school" doesn't have anything to do with what he might do. I really couldn't see my parish priest fondling altar boys, but...

As for the sweat idea, that argues very much against the image of a nude, which the mattress cover is.

Fact, not seeing the documentary, sweat seems to be a terrible argument.

I'm not saying that someone could not paint an image with sweat - but sweat does not conform to one's visage on the pillow. You may get an approximation of a silouhette(sp) but its pretty much just a round spot where the head lays. I am sure your own experience confirms this.

Your arguments against boil down to:
1) You don't think this guy would do it;
2) You think a faked image would be a different image;
3) Someone replicated the shroud of Turin in a laboratory with sweat and a bacteria not known to be present at the Jospice;
4) A man wearing Sweat soaked pajamas would make an image that appears as if he were nude.

1 & 2 are merely your opinion (as good as mine but not factual)
4 is something we know from life experience to be untrue.
So we are left with 3.

My question on that is - if this is merely a natural occurence, why doesn't it occur more often than once every 2,000 years or so?
 
Two further points

Doesn't it strike anyone (in any way) that the Shroud of Turin is the image of a 'holy man' (son of God to some) we know to be Jesus. The finder of the shroud is of secondary importance.

The mattress cover was made by "Les". Any fame has accrued to the finder, not the maker of the image. Shouldn't there be as much research into Les' life as there is into the mattress cover?


The next thing is of the very discovery. The nurse (also un-named) allegedly sees the dark color of the image immediately, yet has to work on it for "some time" before she can discern that it is an image. When she does 'get it', those she calls to look at it see it (the image) immediately.

And what image do they behold? The hand. Apparently they do not notice the much larger and just as clear image of the patient's bare ass juxtaposed adjacent to the hand.
 
Rube said:
Your arguments against boil down to:
1) You don't think this guy would do it;
2) You think a faked image would be a different image;
3) Someone replicated the shroud of Turin in a laboratory with sweat and a bacteria not known to be present at the Jospice;
4) A man wearing Sweat soaked pajamas would make an image that appears as if he were nude.

1 & 2 are merely your opinion (as good as mine but not factual)
4 is something we know from life experience to be untrue.
So we are left with 3.

My question on that is - if this is merely a natural occurence, why doesn't it occur more often than once every 2,000 years or so?
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Possibly rather than considering my musings as an arguement/explanation it is better to consider them a hypothesis for testing (in the early stages of my drawing my resources together).

I have done some asking around and it appears part of the 'natural' explanation may be the medication he was on.

It gets mentioned in Ian Wilson's "The Blood and the Shroud" (pages 35, 241, 369 in my paperback version - look under 'Jospice mattress" in the index) and it reporduces the image of the hand (which is clearly more recognisable than a general buttock shape), as plate 13a. It is interesting to note that the little finger is also thinned where it wasn't in contact with the mattress.

On page 35 he mentions othe examples including impressions on a set of Byzantine curtains and the frequent presence of staining on the white boxes used to transport fresh corpses (as mentioned by a retired undertaker).

It has been discussed by a Dr. Strainton which has been published in the Catholi Medical Quarterly (ibid p 241).

It is possible worht noting that the image is also not a 'negative' image as the shroud is which I suspect is pretty significant.

Emps
 
escargot said:
Reminds me of my mother's story about a mattress. She was given it when she and my father were newly married and very broke. Mother reckoned she kept waking up in the early hours feeling freezing cold and in a panic. She was sure someone had died on it and was haunting it!
After that she swore she'd never have a used mattress again.
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I'm sure I've recounted this tale on here somewhere (but can't find it), but I once helped a young lady move to a new flat. She'd actually done the bulk of it, just the big stuff to go in my large van. There was a double mattress, clearly seen better days, and I'd have dumped it and just bought a new one. Not this lass, oh no. The fact there was a clear outline of a man on the mattress, it looked scorched. Not "a bit like a man's outline if you look from a certain angle in the right light", but plain as day. Less the Turin Shroud and more The Willenhall Mattress. She told me it was her Dad's mattress, the one upon which he had died!
I really didn't want to touch it, but she was totally non-plussed by my horror.
 
LordRsmacker said:
I'm sure I've recounted this tale on here somewhere (but can't find it), but I once helped a young lady move to a new flat. She'd actually done the bulk of it, just the big stuff to go in my large van. There was a double mattress, clearly seen better days, and I'd have dumped it and just bought a new one. Not this lass, oh no. The fact there was a clear outline of a man on the mattress, it looked scorched. Not "a bit like a man's outline if you look from a certain angle in the right light", but plain as day. Less the Turin Shroud and more The Willenhall Mattress. She told me it was her Dad's mattress, the one upon which he had died!
I really didn't want to touch it, but she was totally non-plussed by my horror.
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Perhaps she considered sleeping on her father's mattress brought her closer to him?
 
LordRsmacker said:
I'm sure I've recounted this tale on here somewhere (but can't find it), but I once helped a young lady move to a new flat. She'd actually done the bulk of it, just the big stuff to go in my large van. There was a double mattress, clearly seen better days, and I'd have dumped it and just bought a new one. Not this lass, oh no. The fact there was a clear outline of a man on the mattress, it looked scorched. Not "a bit like a man's outline if you look from a certain angle in the right light", but plain as day. Less the Turin Shroud and more The Willenhall Mattress. She told me it was her Dad's mattress, the one upon which he had died!
I really didn't want to touch it, but she was totally non-plussed by my horror.
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Reminds me of a story in the Observer about 30 years ago, of a man who'd died in a British hospital bed and left an outline on the plastic mattress. The patient hadn't been anyone special, in fact he was homeless, and little was known about him.

His perfect outline was seen after his body was taken away and the bed stripped ready for a wash-down and fresh sheets etc for the next patient. As I remember, the outline was seen as a sign that the dead man had been some kind of holy figure or saint and the mattress was taken away and preserved.

The Observer coverage of the incident was in the colour supplement and there were photos. I've never read anything else about it. Wish I'd kept the magazine now.
 
IbisNibs said:
Maybe his sweat was acidic?
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Lots of explanations were put forward but apparently nothing would give the same effect. According to the article the incident was well-investigated.

The Observer is trustworthy. It isn't a Sunday scandal-rag.
It doesn't publish trashy 'paranormal' stories like, for example, the tabloids that covered the Philippines' 'psychic surgeons`.

If the Observer says it's a mystery that certain people thought was a miracle, I believe it.

That doesn't mean it WAS a miracle of course.
 
Haha, this thread is so old I missed the first few posts. (I'm on my phone too.)

The mattress is the same one. I've still heard nothing more about it.
 
By coincidence I was watching a horrible urban exploration video last night, where a fairly-respectful trespasser entered the abandoned but well-preserved home of an American widow. We were warned that the upstairs held a sad reminder of the woman's death.

So it does and it packs quite a punch, even when warned.

I have heard of floorboards being stripped to remove such memories, before houses can be occupied again.

Yet these were undisputed cases of putrefaction in situ, not snapshots of a spirit departing this earth. :(
 
escargot said:
Haha, this thread is so old I missed the first few posts. (I'm on my phone too.)

The mattress is the same one. I've still heard nothing more about it.
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I was about to nudge you to look for the Observer, quoting the 2004 post!
 
Kondoru said:
But if this is so, why doesnt it happen more often?

Or maybe it does and we dont look for it.
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I think it probably does, but goes unremarked. The recently departed leave a lot of staining behind on their death bed, in my experience and that of Ms P who has seen more dead than I would wish to.
 
PeteS said:
I think it probably does, but goes unremarked. The recently departed leave a lot of staining behind on their death bed, in my experience and that of Ms P who has seen more dead than I would wish to.
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"Death beds" is a section I avoid in furniture shops. Also "blood baths".

maximus otter
 
JamesWhitehead said:
By coincidence I was watching a horrible urban exploration video last night, where a fairly-respectful trespasser entered the abandoned but well-preserved home of an American widow. We were warned that the upstairs held a sad reminder of the woman's death.

So it does and it packs quite a punch, even when warned.

I have heard of floorboards being stripped to remove such memories, before houses can be occupied again.

Yet these were undisputed cases of putrefaction in situ, not snapshots of a spirit departing this earth. :(
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Yup, as you say, where bodies have lain undiscovered they can leave an impression through putrefaction. This wouldn't happen in a hospital though, where the deceased will be quickly removed to make way for the next patient.
 
IbisNibs said:
Did he die of a fever?
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Cancer, if I recall correctly. The outline seemed scorched, but I confess I didn't study it closely. It was around 20 years ago, before the days of cameras routinely being found on mobile phones, so no chance to capture a pic, sadly.
I remember seeing it sitting there and thinking (and saying) "What. The. Fuck?" and thinking she was joking a. that her Dad had died on it and b. she was keeping the thing.
She was a manager of a client's company, I didn't really know her, and it was a 150-odd mile trip to pick up not much more than a large rubber plant, a clothes horse and this mattress. I remember not wanting to touch it at all, but not wanting to upset her either.
All I could think of was that mattress in Hellraiser (2?) onto which the villain would throw homeless people, and arms and legs would grab the victim and suck them in.
 
Bad Bungle said:
Um.. original mattress ?
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It's all right, they're only coffee stains, honest.

In the book Ghosts Over Britain, there's a story of someone who stayed over at a friend's flat and when in the spare room bed was woken by someone they didn't recognise. Nothing odd there, except that someone was the ghost of the friend's flatmate who had committed suicide in the bed. And her bloodstains were still on the mattress... did she leave more of herself behind than the blood?
 
GNC said:
In the book Ghosts Over Britain, there's a story of someone who stayed over at a friend's flat and when in the spare room bed was woken by someone they didn't recognise. Nothing odd there, except that someone was the ghost of the friend's flatmate who had committed suicide in the bed. And her bloodstains were still on the mattress... did she leave more of herself behind than the blood?
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That VERY BOOK has been beckoning me from a shelf in my front room.
On my way, my dear!
 
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