'Moonraker's Dolly'—Braces Or Not?

[Krepostnoi]

I also seem to harbour a dim but persistent memory (from the same period - my seventies childhood) of the word `dilemma` being an awkward and counterintuitive word to spell and having a silent `n` in it somewhere - more like `dilemna`. (I'm an English language teacher and not a lexical dumbo. I know how the word is spelt - and know that the alternate spelling doesn't make any sense - but it's a memory I seem to share with many others).

I also have the dilemna dilemma - and exactly in that same way of it being a 70s childhood memory as opposed to any more recent usage (I'm a translator, so like Zeke I have a certain level of confidence in my linguistic competence*). It was a trope on the Kermode & Mayo film podcast for a few weeks, too.

* That will inevitably now be undermined by a spelling or grammatical error in this post that I have overlooked.

 

[Roland Deschain]

I am one of those who feels he can recall a famous and iconic colour portrait of Henry VIII holding a chicken or turkey drumstick, but no such scene has yet been unearthed.

I seem to recall pictures like that featuring in adverts, a prop not a real portrait. I can't be specific about the advert though, too long ago.

 

[Zeke Newbold]

As that page mentions, the scene of Henry VIII gorging himself on a whole chicken arrives with the Charles Laughton film. Many complain that it was not in colour and they never saw it.

I'm fairly sure that I didn't see the Laughton film which you have mentioned. In case faulty recall is blamed for this, then let me add that from the same era (70's) I do have a vivid recollection of sequences from the wonderful Hobson's Choice which starred also Laughton (as Hobson the elder).

`Horrible Histories` have since featured a cartoon version of the rotund monarch comlpete with drumstick - but this was way, way after my time, plus of course the authors may have been referencing the very missing portrait to which I allude!

I don't believe that there's enough reason to bring quantum physics into this whole thing, as yet, and hold it to be mostly psychological - but the fact that large numbers of people can confabulate the same specific image on the basis of small cues in indicates to me that people who advocate the (mistermed) `Mandela Effect` have stumbled onto something quite significant here.

Again, blatantly obvious there are no braces present on upper or lower teeth. I don't understand - Are you claiming that all prints of the film after a certain date have had her braces removed by CGI?! You do realise that is just crazy, huh?

I'm not claiming that there is any digital manipulation involved in this at all. (Please reread my last few posts). My theory is that: (1) The original motion picture did feature Dolly having lower teeth only braces in all shots, (2) that these would have been perceivable enough to cinema goers to telegraph the idea of `braces` (3) but that the visual impact is considerably lessensed on smaller screened formats so that we cannot see them so well now(.If you can't see the lower braces on ths shots that myself and Ermintrude have provided above, then I can only implore you to look again. Ermintrude himself did not see them at first but now, much to his credit, has acknowledged that they are there).

I also have the dilemna dilemma - and exactly in that same way of it being a 70s childhood memory as opposed to any more recent usage (I'm a translator, so like Zeke I have a certain level of confidence in my linguistic competence*). It was a trope on the Kermode & Mayo film podcast for a few weeks, too.

Thanks Krepestnoi! It's good to get a fellow cunning linguist in on this one! Yeah, I have this indelible sense of dilemma being one of those awkward words that you avoided using because you'd know you might spell it wrong - but in reality all you have to do is bear in mind that it's one `l` and two `ms` - otherwise it's quite phonetic! I must check out the Kermode podcast (Kermode is one of the few broadcasters who can make me feel homesick for the Old Country!)

 

[JamesWhitehead]

I'm fairly sure that I didn't see the Laughton film which you have mentioned.

You miss entirely the point I was making, which allows for that fact. The remainder of the paragraph states how Laughton's Henry became a "meme" before the word was invented.

 

[Cochise]

A real mystery! Have we had a reality timeslip, or what?

Can a few hundred computerised Forteans sort this out?

(FWIW, I remember her with braces too!)

Late to this, sorry, but I remember the scene too, because a) it was a surprise and b) it was actually quite touching. But did she actually have braces or was it the way she smiled? Not sure now.

 

[Ermintruder]

Late to this, sorry, but I remember the scene too

So therefore we can masque some notional objectivity upon you. Precisely what do you remember, of this scene? In your most unalloyed earliest recollection, seeing this high on the silver screen?

[ps I shan't lead the witness (a criticism often levelled at me, though rarely here). Just tell us the tooth, the whole tooth, and... (brace yourself for this) mind the gap]

 

[Cochise]

Well. I remember Jaws smiling at her and her smiling back in a way that drew attention to her own teeth rather than the smile itself. But I can't now remember for sure _why_ I 'got' the teeth thing ('look our teeth are weird so we must be meant for each other'). It could have been braces, that would have been my knee jerk opinion, or it could have been the exaggerated way she smiled. You can see the exaggeration in the stills. It might not be so obvious to the younger generations as I think people show more of their teeth when they smile today.

But, however it was done, the scene was all about the teeth - it would hardly have made sense otherwise.

edit - and yes, I did see it first at the movies.

2nd edit - although the actress says braces were never discussed, it might make sense if they were discussed, maybe without involving her directly, and then she was asked to do the smile thing instead - but the bottom braces thing also makes sense, since the braces would not want to be revealed in earlier shots. (I can't remember if she had much dialog before that point).

You certainly can have just a bottom set of braces - I should have had braces on my bottom set of teeth only - just one displaced tooth.

 

[Roland Deschain]

Well. I remember Jaws smiling at her and her smiling back in a way that drew attention to her own teeth rather than the smile itself. But I can't now remember for sure _why_ I 'got' the teeth thing ('look our teeth are weird so we must be meant for each other'). It could have been braces, that would have been my knee jerk opinion, or it could have been the exaggerated way she smiled. You can see the exaggeration in the stills. It might not be so obvious to the younger generations as I think people show more of their teeth when they smile today.

But, however it was done, the scene was all about the teeth - it would hardly have made sense otherwise.

edit - and yes, I did see it first at the movies.

2nd edit - although the actress says braces were never discussed, it might make sense if they were discussed, maybe without involving her directly, and then she was asked to do the smile thing instead - but the bottom braces thing also makes sense, since the braces would not want to be revealed in earlier shots. (I can't remember if she had much dialog before that point).

You certainly can have just a bottom set of braces - I should have had braces on my bottom set of teeth only - just one displaced tooth.

Interesting because I too (think) I remember it ok and have a very different recollection. For me the smile was one of mutual attraction, with the comedic juxtaposition of the huge cold assassin and the tiny geeky (and beautiful) girl the gag.

They had no lines and worked it between them like a silent movie (hence the exaggerated facial expressions) till Jaws broke the silence with his toast.

I don't recall braces, and if the script called for them I think they would have been centre stage, after all the movie wasn't subtle. It even had close encounters on a keypad!

 

[RyoHazuki]

Apologies for the Page 1 Resurrection, but here's my favourite instance of tangled braces. Also a great excuse to post footage of an Austin Ambassador, and a reminder of how good BDB's first album was.

 

[Zeke Newbold]

I've lost the link now, but there was a theory I happened across that the movie was edited and that a lower brace was visible still through a glass that Dolly drinks from, it looked equally like it could just be the opposte rim of the glass.

This is quite bracing....

Supposed evidence of the initial print having been tampered with. The technicalities are all a bit beyond me and I can't see all that much. Perhaps this is something which Ermintrude could get his teeth into...?

 

[MrRING]

I think the Thunderbird wore braces when shot down...

But in all seriousness, it might have something to do with her teeth being somewhat small so it might have seemed like braces to some folks... I'll admit that is what I thought too until a relatively recent watch.

 

[rynner2]

Well, I'm still baffled, but baffled on a much higher level!

I'm not impressed by the query about the 'misaligned thumb'. The thumb is the opposable digit, and so would be behind the glass, while the fingers were in front. The 'misaligned thumb' is clearly the index finger.

 

[Krepostnoi]

Apologies for the Page 1 Resurrection, but here's my favourite instance of tangled braces. Also a great excuse to post footage of an Austin Ambassador, and a reminder of how good BDB's first album was.

One for the coincidences thread? You wait years for a Y reg Austin Ambassador to feature in a music video posted on FTMB, then two come along (almost) at once.</off-topic>

 

[paranoid420]

Apologies for the Page 1 Resurrection, but here's my favourite instance of tangled braces. Also a great excuse to post footage of an Austin Ambassador, and a reminder of how good BDB's first album was.

I was going to guess the movie where the two braces wearing characters fell in loved of maybe even locked them was Sixteen Candles though I can't find such a scene.

I don't understand why would the actress who played Dolly deny wearing them if she did? I would think she would remember something like that. I never actually saw Moonraker or if I did it was so long ago I forgot, but that scene would make more sense with braces. Why did they focus on her teeth? There sure are a lot of people who thought she did have them.

 

[Zeke Newbold]

I was going to guess the movie where the two braces wearing characters fell in loved of maybe even locked them was Sixteen Candles though I can't find such a scene.

What?! Not another disapperaing baces moment!

I don't understand why would the actress who played Dolly deny wearing them if she did? I would think she would remember something like that. I never actually saw Moonraker or if I did it was so long ago I forgot, but that scene would make more sense with braces. Why did they focus on her teeth? There sure are a lot of people who thought she did have them.

Well a lot of posters both here and elsewhere have claimed that the actress said this, but I have yet to see a source given for this information and still less a link to it...so it remains a classic case of [Citation needed!]

Bear in mind also that English is not the actresses first language so the subtlty of the - crucial - distinction between wearing full mouth braces and bottom teeth braces may have been lost in translation in an interview.

 

[Ringo]

I wonder if we're mixing up different movies. The average adult will have seen hundreds of movies and maybe some bits get mixed up in the recollection. For example, the image I had in my head was that Dolly was wearing some sort of pin striped outfit. Then I realised that I was thinking of a different movie: Amy Adams in "Catch me if you can".

 

[Belshazzar]

Well a lot of posters both here and elsewhere have claimed that the actress said this, but I have yet to see a source given for this information and still less a link to it...so it remains a classic case of [Citation needed!]

Bear in mind also that English is not the actresses first language so the subtlty of the - crucial - distinction between wearing full mouth braces and bottom teeth braces may have been lost in translation in an interview.

A friend of the actress, who had been told of the strange online phenomena regarding Dolly's braces, sent her a text message to ask if Dolly was ever filmed in braces:

You're also still totally disregarding Dolly's second appearance (video clip was enclosed a few posts back) where she gives a huge grin revealing clearly there are neither braces on top or bottom. It was a still from this scene which was also used on contemporary promotional material from 1979/80 - Again no braces...

 

[Bigphoot2]

This thread has reminded me of another scene from a movie. A few years back I was having a lad’s night in with some mates – beer, curry and Where Eagles Dare.

There’s a scene in the movie where Derren Nesbitt’s character is shot by Clint Eastwood. In the film he is shot in the forehead. When that happened we all said that it was different when we saw it in the cinema as kids back in the early ‘70s. We all distinctly remember seeing his character being shot several times in the chest.

After a bit of research I found this on imdb.com

Derren Nesbittwas nearly blinded when the squibs in his chest blew upwards instead of outwards when filming his death scene - his character was filmed being shot in the head and the chest but in the finished film he is only shot in the head.

The scene was filmed but apparently never used yet we all remembered seeing it. I checked on imdb and there is no reference to alternative versions of the movies using the original chest squibs.

 

[paranoid420]

What?! Not another disapperaing baces moment!
QUOTE]

I can't find the scene where two people lock braces. In any movie. I have never seen that badly drawn boy video, yet I have vivid memories of a scene, from an 80s movie, where two people kiss and lock braces.

 

[paranoid420]

I am still looking for the movie where two people kiss and their braces lock, it's not goonies, 16 candles, ferris bueller, every time someone suggests a movie its not there, how can everyone remember something that doesn't exist? Everyone i ask remembers a scene with braces locking and no one remembers what movie it is? Am I the only one who thinks this is weird?

 

[Mythopoeika]

I am still looking for the movie where two people kiss and their braces lock, it's not goonies, 16 candles, ferris bueller, every time someone suggests a movie its not there, how can everyone remember something that doesn't exist? Everyone i ask remembers a scene with braces locking and no one remembers what movie it is? Am I the only one who thinks this is weird?

I seem to remember seeing a scene like that in a film too.
Can't remember what the film was, though.

 

[EnolaGaia]

I got nothing to offer on the movie angle, but ...

This 2008 Chicago Tribune article:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-02-14/features/0802120335_1_archwires-orthodontist-braces

... describes an account of the only known incident of braces getting locked / entangled during kissing. It occurred in 1977 in Ann Arbor, Michigan. To illustrate why this may be the only known such incident, the article includes this bit:

... Graber's story surfaced after the St. Louis-based American Association of Orthodontists surveyed some of its 15,500 members in early January to find any known, publicized case confirming that classic orthodontic myth: If two sweeties in braces kiss long enough, they get stuck.

Not even the AAO's incoming president had seen one, though he wished he had. "During 40 years of practice, I waited to be part of the folklore of orthodontic emergencies," says Dr. Raymond George Sr., who practices in East Providence, R.I., and South Attleboro, Mass. "But alas, it never happened." ...

 

[EnolaGaia]

There's also an alleged first-person-witness report of a 1962 kissers-locking-braces incident in this Metafilter thread:

http://www.metafilter.com/134911/The-only-known-case-of-braces-interlocking-during-a-kiss

This thread also includes someone else's quite reasonable point that the 1977 case I cited earlier might represent no more than the only known case that resulted in professional (dentist / orthodontist) involvement.

 

[Tribble]

A few non-film references :

"I'll never forget my first crush. She was a ravishing creature of eight, but it didn't work out. The first time I kissed her, we locked braces. Took the dentist two hours to pry us apart." - Gomez Addams

Badly Drawn Boy - 'Once Around The Block' (music video) (skip to 2:21), inspired by what is likely an urban legend (link from page EnolaGaia posted)

 

[MrRING]

Some fans are trying to raise money to rent a 35MM print of Moonraker via Kickstarter. They link to this video which talks about the Mandela Effect:

And an interesting claim in the responses to the video:

Silverangel Rant5 months ago
My cousins uncle was a dentist in London he did moulds of Richards teeth for the brace in the Spy Who Loved Me and his partner did plaster cast moulds for Moonraker 's Dolly. He told me that story back in the 80s. Sadly the guy died back in the 90s but I don't believe he would lie.

 

[TheInspector]

I am still looking for the movie where two people kiss and their braces lock, it's not goonies, 16 candles, ferris bueller, every time someone suggests a movie its not there, how can everyone remember something that doesn't exist? Everyone i ask remembers a scene with braces locking and no one remembers what movie it is? Am I the only one who thinks this is weird?

There was an add back in the late '90s or possibly the early '00s, where the a teenage girl's tongue piercing got caught in her boyfriend's braces.

 

[Analogue Boy]

Dolly did have braces. It was a witty piece of scripting that made the scene where Jaws smiles at her and she, in braces, smiles back at him.
The explanation of why this is no longer the case can be found in the Mandela Effect.

Based on that, here's my theory.
The moment they switched on the Large Hadron Collider, a slightly less efficient version was switched on simultaneously in a similar, but more slipshod alternate reality. The spontaneous triggering of these two systems generated a switch between our version of reality and the other.... same as ours but a crappier, less creative and slightly more fucked up version than the path we were previously were treading.

We now have Dolly without braces but instead have all the mediocre politicians, Ed Sheeran taking up all of the top ten and shit movie remakes while the other version is now wondering how Simon Cowell rose to be the next huge polymath of the age, world peace has been achieved, the energy problem suddenly got sorted and Brian Cox returned to keyboards in an average pop band.

 

[Tribble]

Based on that, here's my theory.
The moment they switched on the Large Hadron Collider, a slightly less efficient version was switched on simultaneously in an alternate reality. The spontaneous triggering of these two systems generated a switch between our version of reality and the other.... same as ours but a crappier, less creative and slightly more fucked up version than the path we were previously were treading.

Quite a few years ago, I had an idea for a story. A few years ago, an RAF fighter had a near miss with a UFO near a nuclear power station (can't remember which one or even which year). In my story, they collided, the flying saucer hitting the station and punching a hole in reality, which started to become unravelled, the effect even rippling back in time.
Now, it seems, the story's coming a bit true. News is fake, facts are alt, politics is upended, the Mandela Effect is in full flow and people are blaming a high-energy incident for punching a hole in reality...

 

[Analogue Boy]

Quite a few years ago, I had an idea for a story. A few years ago, an RAF fighter had a near miss with a UFO near a nuclear power station (can't remember which one or even which year). In my story, they collided, the flying saucer hitting the station and punching a hole in reality, which started to become unravelled, the effect even rippling back in time.
Now, it seems, the story's coming a bit true. News is fake, facts are alt, politics is upended, the Mandela Effect is in full flow and people are blaming a high-energy incident for punching a hole in reality...

Write it and give it the title 'Dolly Braces'.

 

[Simon]

Moonraker is on ITV1 right now. The 'Dolly' scene is coming up in about 10 minutes or so.

I'll keep you posted!